Refuting Jewish objections to Jesus as the Messiah

[Icemoon]

…aparently you speak from personal knowledge of Judaism… I speak from relative ignorance since I know only what a few Jewish guys have revealed to me about their faith and culture.

I do have some knowledge of Judaism but I have not displayed them here. I refrain from quoting Jewish sources as I know you will not bother to take them seriously anyway.

I act like an agnostic here, what I have wrote are common knowledge. For example, I have said it upteem times, those messianic verses (e.g. Isaiah and Daniel) need not refer to their futuristic messiah. So when they reject your group interpretation, it does not mean they are just being stubborn. It can mean the law of parsimony at work.

However, my limited perspective and my passion for Christ may have led you to believe other wise.

 

[Icemoon]

…to have a skewed view of someone/people/nation would imply by necessity a need to debase or belittle that person/people/nation–I have no need. My operative command is Love not hate.

Not necessary. Must hate come into the question?

For example, you may have a skewed view of Obama because the media you read are so biased towards Clinton.

Or you have just not given the issue much thought. For example many intelligent Protestants support and parrot the creationist fundamentalist view without understanding evolution at all.

 

[jcrichton]

I did not say that and you have shifted the goalpost. I merely asked when was Moses the High Priest.

And you have missed the point. Moses was acting under the instruction of God. So if God told any Jacob, Peres or Job, conceivably they could have done that as well, though they’d have much less credibility as the laws were already given at Sinai.

Moses was officiating as a priest before the priesthood was founded. I know that some require very specific terms be met (text to point exactly to the phrase “high priest”) while ignoring the actual events that were unfolding.

I do not mean to confound; I simply see a clear definition of “high priest” in what Moses did (please read through the text and you will find that the very first official acts were carried out by Moses not Aaron, his sons nor the tribe of Levi).

You did not say that and I gave you the benefit of the doubt, didn’t I? That’s why I hoped you clarified your usage of the word ‘god’, lest any reader misunderstands.

My mistake; I presumed that those who are reading through these posts understand that lower case “g” implied that the reference was to a type not to God Himself. And, since God subjected Israel and the pharaoh to Moses, I thought that it was clear that Moses had been given authority over these two peoples–not that he had been risen to a deity status. My apologies.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t get you.

According to what you wrote, didn’t Scripture contradict Moses, or vice versa?

1. Moses attests there would arise in Israel a Prophet like himself.
2. Scripture attest no other prophet like Moses ever existed.
3. Jesus claimedIs: He is the I AM. I take that to mean He is higher than Moses.

How can 1, 2 and 3 be true and referring to the same person?

Moses is correct in prophesying that there would arise in Israel a Prophet like himself–Moses is merely revealing Yahweh God’s Word.

Scriptures are correct in attesting that there were no other prophets like Moses since Scriptures are the various revelations of Yahweh God.

Jesus is that Prophet and He allows Israel to know this by His Teachings, the various miracles He performed and enabled His disciples to perform, and by the various revelations of Who He is: I AM!

All three statements are correct but we must allow Yahweh God’s Word to reveal itself to us: “He is my Son, listen to Him!” Once the human “reason” is employed, our finite knowledge cannot comprehend the Wondrous Ways of the Lord!:

9 For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. 10 And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:9-11–DRV)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

This is petitio principii at its worst, isn’t it?

Instead of seeking out the reasons why they reject your group interpretation of the Old Testament, you just made a sweeping conclusion that they reject the Word of God.

This is a serious allegation you know. How would you like if Moslems say the same thing to you?

Where do you live?

As I stated before show me a single Jewish person (not a convert to Christianity) who respects the New Testament.

My statement is not some bragging rights I have allowed myself… it is my personal understanding, from the Jewish people that I have come accross, that Jesus and the New Testament are a non-issue to them (and that is being kind–I refuse to repeat what I’ve been told).

If you show me one (as Abraham asked Yahweh God… just one) I would understand that not all believe the same way… but that has not happened yet.

I made the statement of not continuing this discourse since I cannot see that it would bring forth any good. So please do not feel dejected as I will not continue this merry-go-round.

I leave you in Peace.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Icemoon]

Where do you live?

As I stated before show me a single Jewish person (not a convert to Christianity) who respects the New Testament.

My statement is not some bragging rights I have allowed myself… it is my personal understanding, from the Jewish people that I have come accross, that Jesus and the New Testament are a non-issue to them (and that is being kind–I refuse to repeat what I’ve been told).

I’m not sure what you mean by respect. If you mean people who subscribe to your group interpretation, then I have to say this is a narrow definition. Protestants fit the description, but they do not revere the Bible less than you.

I understand how it feels to have those Jewish people telling you ‘ugly’ things about Jesus and the NT, to the extent you refuse to repeat what you’ve been told.

But, if you allow me to say this, try to put yourself in their shoes. How does it feel to have foreign people telling you your Bible has been superseded by something new, that you willfully ignore the Word of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that you know nuts about your own Hebrew language, that your ancestors were mostly practising and talking nonsense?

I may be overstating it, but you get the point.

 

[Icemoon]

Where do you live?

I live in Singapore and for the record, I’m neither Jewish nor practising Judaism.

 

[Icemoon]

Moses is correct in prophesying that there would arise in Israel a Prophet like himself–Moses is merely revealing Yahweh God’s Word.

Scriptures are correct in attesting that there were no other prophets like Moses since Scriptures are the various revelations of Yahweh God.

Jesus is that Prophet and He allows Israel to know this by His Teachings, the various miracles He performed and enabled His disciples to perform, and by the various revelations of Who He is: I AM!

But how is Jesus like Moses? Did Jesus give the Pharisees the impression He is just like Moses?

 

[Icemoon]

Moses was officiating as a priest before the priesthood was founded. I know that some require very specific terms be met (text to point exactly to the phrase “high priest”) while ignoring the actual events that were unfolding.

I do not mean to confound; I simply see a clear definition of “high priest” in what Moses did (please read through the text and you will find that the very first official acts were carried out by Moses not Aaron, his sons nor the tribe of Levi).

This is not the biblical understanding, iirc.

I may be wrong but I remember the comparison used is Melchizedek, i.e. priesthood of Melchizedek. In Hebrews?

 

[Valke2]

When Moses says there will be a prophet like himself, he is referring to the use of prophecy in general. That God will choose prophets to speak to Israel. Since Israel feared hearing God’s word direct, this was meant to comfort them.

 

[Icemoon]

When Moses says there will be a prophet like himself, he is referring to the use of prophecy in general. That God will choose prophets to speak to Israel. Since Israel feared hearing God’s word direct, this was meant to comfort them.

Darn … why did you reveal the answer so fast?!

I was leading them on so they could see the folly of their own reasoning.

 

[JamesCharles]

Reading this entire thread prompts me to post:

“Oh, ye of little faith”

If some Jewish cite posting about Jesus not being the Messiah can make you question your faith, then all I can say is:

“Oh, ye of little faith”

Pray to the Lord for more faith in the Messiah and it will come.

 

[JimTx]

You are just making the issues murkier. How clear is the OT that Jews are to expect a King of Kings who knows no political boundary?

The issues are murky to begin with, as the messianic verses need not point to the futuristic messiah Jews are expecting. For example, Jews have good reasons to think the verses in Isaiah and Daniel are referring to events which are history.

Back to the point. IIRC, it can be argued that Jesus was descended from David via both his parents. So the lineage of Joseph may not be a big deal after all.

I don’t see how that makes it murky. Hardly anything is “clear” in the old testament. My point is that Jesus never did sit on the throne of David, so the so-called “curse of Jaconah” does not apply. Perhaps the Jews of the day were expecting a great King who would occupy David’s throne, but Jesus suprised us all by occupying an even greater throne. To me, that is not murky at all.

 

[Icemoon]

I don’t see how that makes it murky. Hardly anything is “clear” in the old testament.

If hardly anything is “clear” in the OT, then how are the Pharisees going to recognize The One even if he is right in front of their eyes?

 

[Bean61]

There are so many points to the Jewish argument given that it would take weeks, if not months, to go over every one of them. By its very length it would be extremely difficult to do this.

I have known Jewish debaters that would most certainly ‘fudge’ the facts to suit their argument.

I see where the Jewish facts of the matter are backed up, for the most part, by Scripture. In order to defend Jesus as the Messiah, everyone of these Scriptures would have to be studied. How do we know that their interpretation of the Scriptures is the same as our?

By the very fact that we believe Jesus to not only be the Messiah but also God the Second Person of the Trinity affects the way we look at the Old Testament. For instance, the Jews do not believe that the Messiah was God. To them He was only a man.

One can certainly make the argument that the Jews do not understand their own Scriptures because they are not pointed, for them, at it’s proper fulfillement. Jesus Christ!

I would certainly relish the job of debating a Jew, however, one, maybe two, subjects at a time.

 

[Valke2]

Debate away.

 

[Kaninchen]

I have known Jewish debaters that would most certainly ‘fudge’ the facts to suit their argument.

Unlike any Christian ever, I expect.

I would certainly relish the job of debating a Jew, however, one, maybe two, subjects at a time.

No you wouldn’t, you’d just find yourself going around in circles, both sides have been at it, in detail, for a couple of millennia. Take it from a Jewess!

 

[Valke2]

That’s true, but what’s a few more years?

I was watching a preview for a movie starring Adam Sandler as an Ex Israeli superagent. He’s got some Hamas assains after him or something and his mother reassures him “They’ve been fighting in the middle east for over 2,000 years. It can’t last much longer.”

 

[Kaninchen]

I was watching a preview for a movie starring Adam Sandler as an Ex Israeli superagent. He’s got some Hamas assains after him or something and his mother reassures him “They’ve been fighting in the middle east for over 2,000 years. It can’t last much longer.”

Oh dear, I was about to say that it sounded so much like my mother, then I realized just how much I sound like my mother nowadays, even to my own ears!

 

[Bean61]

Unlike any Christian ever, I expect.

LOL

No you wouldn’t, you’d just find yourself going around in circles, both sides have been at it, in detail, for a couple of millennia. Take it from a Jewess!

It’s a new millennia!!