Refuting Reformed Theology on "2 Corinthians 5:21"

[James248]

Christ said “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.”

 

[De_Maria]

That’s not what Paul says in 1Cor6:11; we “were justified”, aorist passive indicative – it is completed.

He didn’t say that the justification was permanent. And in Heb 6:4-6, he said:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now, where you and I agree, is that “justification is a place in which we must ABIDE”…

So, you agree that justification is not necessarily permanent?

We would also have to be sanctified again, and washed (regenerated) again.

Says who? Sanctification and justification are two sides of the same coin. When one is justified, one is sanctified, by definition. But we are only born once. Therefore, our spiritual birth, regeneration, only happens once.

“you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” 1Cor6:11

That’s what happens in Baptism. We are washed of our sins, we are thereby set aside for Holy purposes, and we are reconciled to God by the Spirit of our God and in the name of Jesus Christ.

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Titus3:5-7

Another description of Baptism.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,

DEEDS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS - First thing to notice here is that we have done righteous deeds. He’s not pulling from a set of people who are doing wicked things nor from a set of people who are doing nothing at all. He’s pulling from a set of people who have done righteous deeds.

but according to His mercy,

HIS MERCY - This takes me back to the OT:

Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Same thing. God pours out His mercy on those who keep His Commandments. God pours out His mercy on those who do righteous deeds. God’s Commandments are righteous deeds.

by the washing of regeneration

That’s a description of Baptism.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Still a description of Baptism, because the Holy Spirit is the gift we receive in Baptism.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

The Holy Spirit is, then, equivalent to the mercy of God, which God pours out upon those who do His will. As I mentioned above.

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs "

It is at this point that those who have done righteous deeds are justified by the mercy of God. Notice the words, “made heirs”. That means “sanctified”.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Holiness is sanctity and without it, one will not see God.

according to the hope of eternal life.

And neither this justification nor sanctication are declared permanent, since this is described as a HOPE of eternal life. Not a once saved always saved declaration. See also Heb 6:4-6.

Justified — past tense; we were saved NOT on the basis of works, but by His mercy, and justified by His grace.

What do you think I’m still missing?

See above.

Be reconciled; — YOU, DO this! Do — receive Jesus’ gospel, believe, and measure your belief by your works.

Exactly.

19-22 also reads to me as “his faith was credited as righteousness”…

Because of his actions.

Wait — did you say that last paragraph, or did I?

My bad. You said:

So justification has nothing about what we do, but something God does to us; and James agrees when we understand him to be saying “justification comes by true faith, which is COMPLETED by good works”.

If it were me, I would have said:

We are not justified by our righteous works. But God does not justify those who do not do righteous works.

I wonder if it is as much as anyone thought before?

Oh, please — let it be spaghetti sauce with MUSHROOMS! I like The Mushroom!

He’s a funguy…

(fungi…)

Lol! :whacky:

 

[De_Maria]

Gen15:6 “Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.”

Gen22:12 "He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

What did Abraham’s action, change? Did it change GOD? (Mal3:6 “I do not change.”)

Hm? Well, if you insist that he was justified at Gen 15:6, what did Abraham’s faith change? Did it change God?

I’ll go a bit further, since Abraham was found faithful in Gen 12, why was he not justified then?

Did it change justification? (Jesus’ sacrifice was incomplete?)

Those two things seem disconnected to me. There’s a difference between how Abraham was justified and how we are justified. Man, this is going to deserve a thread of its own.

First of all, Jesus Christ poured the Holy Spirit out upon us. The Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus died upon the Cross. That is why the Jews, including Abraham, were awaiting Christ’s appearance. Because they could not be made perfect without Him.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went…39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

That’s when they received the renewal of the Holy Spirit. After Jesus died upon the Cross. That’s when they were perfectly justified.

Remember the parable of the landowner and the labourers. How some worked all day but at the end of the day received the same coin as the one’s who came in at the end of the day? That coin, is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus took His place at the right hand of the Father.

…or did it change ABRAHAM, moving his faith to completeness?

Abraham’s justification was forensic. He was not washed or renewed of the Holy Spirit when he was justified. God merely declared the truth. He looked into Abraham’s heart and declared that Abraham was a righteous person.

What was credited — his acting, or his faith?

They can’t be separated. Here’s a great example. Let’s say that a tight rope walker says, “I can cross the Grand Canyon with someone on my back.” And the crowd goes wild. “Yeah! Yeah!” Then the tight rope walker says, “I need a volunteer.” One guy out of a thousand says, “I’ll do it!”

Where’s his credit? In his acting or in his purported faith?

Same thing, that’s what Rom 4:19-22 says about Abraham. Even though he was 100 years old and Sarah was 90 and her body was dried up and she had never had a child, Fr. Abraham did what he needed to do in order to father the child which would make him the Father of all nations. If you read Heb 11, it is very powerful and poignant. He dared to sacrifice his only son believing that God would bring him back to life! That’s true faith! So, how do you divide faith from action.

Isn’t that what I just said?
(…careful, you could confuse the old-guy…)

If I understand you correctly, you’ve been saying that his justification was perfected by his works.

I’m saying that his faith was made perfect by his works and therefore, he was justified.

I don’t think that’s consistent, DeMaria. If Jesus is doing our good works through us (I agree, Philip2:12-13!)

Yes.

— then He does not justify men because their works are good.

Why not? Yes, Jesus is doing our good works. And yes, He gives us credit for the good works which He performs through us.

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Of COURSE they’re good if Jesus is really doing them! But if good works are the evidence of Jesus actually indwelling and working through us, then it’s not by “works”, but by “faith as He indwells those who believe”. And justification would be because of real belief.

I see your point. But, there’s a difference between those who do good works before they are justified and those who do good works after they are baptized (Christian justification).

For example. Abraham did good works, right? Was God working through him when he did so? Yes. But was he considered a born again and renewed of the Holy Spirit, when he was alive? No.

Did St. Paul do good works? Yes. Was God working through him? Yes. Was he a born again child of God? Yes.

What’s the difference? The grace of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not indwell Abraham when Abraham was alive.

Oops, I made a mistake; the Greek usually says "those who are-believ-ING", see Rom1:16, Jn3:16, 1Jn5:1, and more. He who is believing present participle, not he who believed once upon a time.

Ok.

It’s back to the question — what do our works affect, His justification, or our faith? It reads to me that “completed faith is what receives His justification”…

Faith completed by or perfected by good works? I agree. This is why justification is a process. If we look at Abraham, his justification began in Gen 12 but was not made perfect until Gen 22.

 

[po18guy]

There could be no “reformed” theology until Jean Calvin was born in 1509. “Reformed” theology is self-refuting, as it is personal opinion and nothing more. Just that simple.

 

[jcrichton]

I would think that per Rom4:4, a “work” (in regards to salvation and/or meriting God’s grace and justification), is any action of value. Thus, “he who works, his wage is not a favor but what is due”.

Salvation is an unearned favor from God…

I don’t know any Protestant who thinks that. It’s just – some Catholics have been known to say, “Salvation by faith plus works plus the sacraments”.

Look at this post by De Maria, this morning:

How can we have something to add to what Jesus did? How much of our justification did Jesus finish? 3/4? 9/10?

Paul said, “If it be by works, then grace is no longer grace” – to me, if we add anything to what Jesus did, then “grace is no longer grace”. (And if Maria reads this, I would love to hear her thoughts!)

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…here again we are involved in “vocabulary” (understanding).

Non-Catholics emphasize “done deal/completed deal” (I suspect) as a necessary need to combat what they believe is Catholic understanding…

Catholics emphasize collaboration with God in our Salvation and Justification because it is what Scriptures state… yet, we both miss each other because we get caught up in the vocabulary…

…let’s forget this whole argument…

Do you believe that God Saves and Justifies all of humanity?

Do you believe that God forces Salvation and Justification on humanity?

Do you believe (as the Catholic Church Teaches) that man must collaborate with God in his Salvation and must collaborate with God in his Justification?

…this is the actual obstacle that keeps us at disparity when it comes to these two important issues…

While you may see collaboration as unnecessary, Scriptures differ with you since Scriptures assert that man must be in full acceptance of God’s Gift of Salvation and of Grace.

What you view as “works” or “adding” is what the Apostles have adamantly spelled out: Faith without work is void/dead.

It is not that man adds to God’s Salvation or Justification but that he must actively engage both Salvation and Justification:

19 Their sense of right and wrong once dulled, they have abandoned themselves to sexuality and eagerly pursue a career of indecency of every kind. 20 Now that is hardly the way you have learnt from Christ, 21 unless you failed to hear him properly when you were taught what the truth is in Jesus. 22 You must give up your old way of life; you must put aside your old self, which gets corrupted by following illusory desires. 23 Your mind must be renewed by a spiritual revolution 24 so that you can put on the new self that has been created in God’s way, in the goodness and holiness of the truth.

(Ephesians 4:19-24)

22 What the Spirit brings is very different: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. There can be no law against things like that, of course. 24 You cannot belong to Christ Jesus unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires. 25 Since the Spirit is our life, let us be directed by the Spirit. 26 We must stop being conceited, provocative and envious. (Galatians 5:22-26)
…clearly, the Apostles understood, and Taught, that man must go through a change from unrighteousness to righteousness… and that this change both reflected Fellowship in Christ and man’s determination to Walk in the Holy Spirit.

In my estimation, Protestantism is still hung up in the fallacy of double predestination and other theologies which makes God fully and completely responsible for man’s Salvation and Justification: God does everything and man is an inert recipient.

…so when coming to Catholic understanding, for the non-Catholic, red flags spring up and everything is measured (understood) through the rock of their theology.

Consider St. Paul’s words:

24 It makes me happy to suffer for you, as I am suffering now, and in my own body to do what I can to make up all that has still to be undergone by Christ

for the sake of his body, the Church. (Colossians 1:24–JB)

I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and** fill up that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ** in my flesh, for His body’s sake, which is the church, (Colossians 1:24–KJ)
…clearly St. Paul is not intimating that the Suffering Servant’s Afflictions and Death somehow did not fully Atone for God’s Salvific Plan or that man himself had to complete Christ’s Works.

We are coheirs with Christ but only and in as much as we Abide in Christ… that Fellowship requires that we give up the old man (Adam/sin) and take on the new man (Christ/Righteousness of God). Yet, we cannot achieve this through intellectual understanding and methodology and acclamations (‘not all who call Me Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom…’); we must actually make a conscious choice to humbly submit our will to God’s Will–choosing God and producing good fruit!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

:tiphat:

:egyptian:

The opposite; Jesus completed our justification (as I understand from Scripture), we receive His completed grace only by faith — but not just any faith, only the kind of faith which comes with good works. And so James2 is served, Matt7:14-16 is served, Eph2:8, Rom11:6, Rom2:4-11 and Rev20:13, and all the rest.

I’m struggling to understand the Catholic view — people here have said, "Justification is by faith and works". I don’t see it as by works at all; rather, works perfect (complete) our faith, and perfected faith is what receives justification.

And without works, faith is not perfected. So, you’re looking at it as perfected faith is what receives justification. We look at it as faith and works receives justification. Same thing.

Look at it this way also, faith without works is not perfected and will not receive justification.

And, just to add a cherry to that, Scripture explicitly says, "… by works a man is justified,… (James 2:24) So, we don’t believe we can contradict the Word of God.

To me, James is saying that justification is credited to a believer when that belief is real enough to spawn good works. Do you think I still “have it wrong”?

It sounds as though we’re saying the same thing. Faith and works = perfect faith. It seems to us that you ignore the works because we notice that God does not justify anyone who does not obey His Son:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Can you find out and have it on my desk in the morning?

:hypno:

And that is exactly my confusion. To me, “we-have-something-to-add”, by definition means that Jesus’ sacrifice was insufficient.

We don’t see it that way. We believe that Christ intended for us to imitate His sacrifice. He requires that we add to His sacrifice:

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

You believe that Christ sacrificed Himself so that we wouldn’t have to.

We believe that Christ sacrificed Himself so that we could join Him in the sacrifice.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

And that sounds opposite to Rom4:

Not the way we read it.

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

What is “grace”, but God’s favor? Which — must be received, and kept. But if a gift is not wholly of the giver, but if even a part of that gift “the receiver works for” (therefore, it’s not a favor but what is due), then how much of Jesus’ sacrifice was effective, so that we have to finish the gap with our own good works?

Here’s the way I see it. I told my daughter that I would get her a car if she graduated. She graduated. I gave her a car. Did she earn the car? No. I paid for the car and gave it to her. That is total favor on my part. It’s the same with our relationship to God. Our works are not equal in value to salvation. We do the works. God gives us saving grace. We don’t earn salvation. God gives salvation to those who obey His Son.

I’m confident you can see my confusion, and hope you can help me understand your view.

Yep. Some folks like to say that all gifts are without strings. But that isn’t true. Many gifts have strings attached. They are still free will gifts. But they require the giftee to do something before or even after they receive the gift.

No, it’s not — not if we have something to add. For then what is added, completes what was unfinished before!

On the contrary, Jesus did precisely what He was supposed to do. It’s you and I who differ in what Jesus did.

You believe that Jesus finished our justification, apparently, once for all.

I believe that Jesus finished His part of our justification. Now, we need to do our part.

See my incomplete understanding?

Yes.

Oh come on – you actually believe one has to OBEY Jesus before they can obtain salvation?
(…I’m teasing you…)

Lol! The sad thing is that some people are vehemently serious when they say that.

That doesn’t add anything to His grace (justification, sanctification, regeneration). A gift remains all of the giver; a receiver absolutely has to decide to receive it (and if it’s a good gift that makes the receiver “wise”) — but the decision to reach out and accept the gift, adds nothing to the gift…

That’s true. But one must still reach out and accept the gift. And unless one reaches out and accepts the gift, one will not receive it.

 

[De_Maria]

To James248, I said:

“Faith-perfected”, completed.

“Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” 1Cor6:11

Aorist passive indicative, “you-were-justified”, in Jesus’ name.

What if justification is complete, and was complete for Abraham, but is not fully received until one’s faith is complete? Therefore works are part of “completing one’s faith”, but are not actually part of the justification. Doesn’t that make sense of all of the verses?

Not to me.

“Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose.” Philip2:12-13

This is our focus — on God, not on striving to do good or better works. But using our works to measure where we are in Christ.

“Examine yourselves, test yourselves, to see if you are in the faith. Do you not realize this, that Christ is in you, unless you fail the test?” (Adokimos – are disapproved, castaway…) 2Cor13:5

So, is he asking, “Examine yourselves, test yourselves to see if you are justified. Do you not realize that Christ died for you, unless you fail the test?”

It sounds to me as though he expects everyone to add something to their justification.

Peter warns us in 2:1:5-11 to be careful to have godly works, and not be like the man who was purified but now has forgotten his former purification from sin. Therefore we are to be diligent to make our calling and election bebaios-steadfast — as long as these godly fruits and love are ours, we are useful – and will not “ptaio-become-wretched. In THIS way the gates to eternity will be provided to us”.

In fact, he uses the words, “add to your faith”, doesn’t he? In addition, he is speaking to people who are already justified.

Does James “jump ship” and declare that justification is in some part by our own works of righteousness?

I don’t think so. He is merely using a shorthand way of speaking. Like we do when we say, “the sun rose”. We know the sun doesn’t actually rise, but the earth spins on its axis until the sun is again, visible. But its easier to say, the sun rose. So, its easier to say, “by works we are justified.” Because we assume that someone doing good works is doing them from faith.

Or is he mirroring the others (especially 2Cor13:5 and 2Pet1:5-11) that good works necessarily accompany genuine faith, and our works are the measure of where we are in Christ (and where we need to move!)?

They are all saying the same thing. This I know. We can compare two verses which are rarely compared but which show that St. James and St. Paul are saying the same thing:

Jams 1:22 Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. 24 He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. 25 But the one who peers into the perfect law[l] of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

Those say the same thing, right? In any case, Romans 2:13 again shows that God justifies those who do good and righteous deeds. But not those who don’t.

As everyone already knows, I perceive “works-are-our-measure”, not part of justification. Does anyone disagree?

No. I don’t. Two reasons.

1. Because if one has works to measure, one has faith and works.
2. It shows that we are justified again, after we’ve already been justified before. Thus, continual justification.

 

[De_Maria]

exactly right. James2:19 “you believe god is one; you do well, (but) even demons believe and shudder.”… Works make our faith complete; and completed faith receive jesus’ justification, finished for us on the cross!

Do you agree, disagree, gadget-has-hit-the-bull’s-eye, or gadget is off base?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Christ said “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.”

Yes, He said that — Mark16:16. Certainly meaning “waterbaptism”.

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”

And all that condemns, is he-who-has-disbelieved. Pretty much what 1Jn5:10 says, and “disbelief” is why someone’s name isn’t found in the Book of Life (Rev20:15).

Our task (yours and mine), is to teach people that “mere-belief is not what saves”; only the kind of belief which produces good works — but before that, the kind of belief that really enters into a union with the real persons of Jesus and the Spirit and the Father.

“He who HAS the Son has the (eternal) life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life…” “Father, eternal life is knowing You, and knowing (Me).” “Our fellowship is with the Father, and with the Son.”

 

[Gadgeteer]

He didn’t say that the justification was permanent.

COMPLETELY right.

And in Heb 6:4-6, he said:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Excellent — and I’d like you to take Heb6 much farther (when discussing it with others). “Enlightened” (photizo) really means knowing Him. “Tasted” really means participation, see the same geuomai in Heb2:9 “Jesus TASTED DEATH” (He really died!). Partakers of the Spirit — “metochos”, more partners; see Heb3:1 “partners in a heavenly calling”, Heb3:14 “partners in Christ” (IF we HOLD FAST!), and Heb12:8 “partners in His discipline” (in context Heb12 warns “do not reject His discipline and CEASE being sons!”).

It doesn’t really say “if they fall away”, it says “and FALLING away” (aorist participle — perhaps, “having fallen away”, they really did become unsaved!)

Context – begin with Heb5:11-14, speaking to those who should be mature but still need milk. The “impossibility” (adunatos, powerless/unable/impotent) to restore them to repentance, is because of their willful sinfulness. It’s just mirroring Heb10:26-29. Heb6:7-8 we must choose what kind of a field we are, one that yields good fruit (and gets blessed), or one that bears thorns (and gets cursed and burned). Then 6:11-12 "we need diligence SO THAT we not imitate the sluggish, but imitate those who by faith and patience inherit the promises.

It’s pretty iron-clad, and no OSAS person has any defense or response.

So, you agree that justification is not necessarily permanent?

From God’s side, it is; but from our side, we 100% can walk away from justification and from God. Goodness, how do OSAS people view deceivers? Dullards who waste their time trying to diminish shiny CROWNS for us? Deceivers are not rocket surgeons (how smart was it to get kicked outta Heaven?!) — but they really seek to steal eternity itself from us!

“I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his lies, YOUR minds should ALSO be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ!” 2Cor11:3

"HOLD FAST to what you have that no one will STEAL YOUR CROWN!" Rev3:11

We are fully justified in Baptism. But, if we fall and commit sin, we must be justified again. Therefore, we return to the fountain of grace and ask forgiveness for our sins. It is called, confession:

We would also have to be sanctified again, and washed (regenerated) again.

Says who? Sanctification and justification are two sides of the same coin. When one is justified, one is sanctified, by definition.

They are coincident in places like 1Cor6:11.

Tell me (if you will) — if waterbaptism is necessary for “justification”, and if we can get “re-justified”, do we have to get redipped?

But we are only born once. Therefore, our spiritual birth, regeneration, only happens once.

Not necessarily true. James says (last two verses) — “Brethren, if any among you wander away from the faith, and (if) another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death (psuche-thanatos) and covered many sins!”

Such a person who “wanders-away”; is he still “born/begotten from above”? No way. If he’s led back, is he born-again-again? Has to be.

If you talk to an OSAS person who says “you cannot become unborn”, unborn is exactly what Heb12:7-9 warns!

(7) If you endure discipline, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
(8) But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
(9) Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?"

We have become partakers/partners (past tense!), but if we are NOW WITHOUT it, we are (no longer!) sons but (have become!) illegitimate! Make a choice — continue subject to God and live, or turn away (and not live). It’s furthered in verses like 12:25 — “much less shall we escape who turn away from God!”

That’s what happens in Baptism. We are washed of our sins, we are thereby set aside for Holy purposes, and we are reconciled to God by the Spirit of our God and in the name of Jesus Christ.

I won’t argue “waterbaptism” here. I would just see if you agree that Jesus’ blood really washes away our sins; and — see if you agree that Luke12:50, and Mark10:38, are not talking about water?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Another description of Baptism.

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,

DEEDS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS - First thing to notice here is that we have done righteous deeds. He’s not pulling from a set of people who are doing wicked things nor from a set of people who are doing nothing at all. He’s pulling from a set of people who have done righteous deeds.

but according to His mercy,

HIS MERCY - This takes me back to the OT:

Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Same thing. God pours out His mercy on those who keep His Commandments. God pours out His mercy on those who do righteous deeds. God’s Commandments are righteous deeds.

His mercy is poured out on all men, Rom11:32. Calvinists refuse to acknowledge this, inventing ideas like “pas doesn’t really mean EVERYONE, but only some of all TYPES”. (Yes it does.)

by the washing of regeneration

That’s a description of Baptism.

You perceive “washing-of-water-and-regeneration”, I perceive “the-regeneration-is-what-washes-us”.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Still a description of Baptism, because the Holy Spirit is the gift we receive in Baptism.

Not in Acts8:16 (water-before-Spirit), and not in Acts10:47 (Spirit-before-water). Not arguin’, just sayin’…

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

The Holy Spirit is, then, equivalent to the mercy of God, which God pours out upon those who do His will. As I mentioned above.

Do you know it’s the same Greek “pour” (ekcheo) in Titus3:6, as it is in Acts10:46?

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs "

It is at this point that those who have done righteous deeds are justified by the mercy of God. Notice the words, “made heirs”. That means “sanctified”.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Holiness is sanctity and without it, one will not see God.

That’s right. And all OUR righteousness is as filthy rags. (The actual word used in Isaiah for “filthy-rags”, is a whole lot worse…)

according to the hope of eternal life.

And neither this justification nor sanctification are declared permanent, since this is described as a HOPE of eternal life. Not a once saved always saved declaration. See also Heb 6:4-6.

Really, the whole letter of Hebrews. What in the world else could verses like Heb4:11 mean? (I look forward to your thoughts on what I just said about chapter 12!)

See above.

As you and I just discussed, in places like James5:19-20, it has to be that one can become re-justified and re-sanctified and re-regenerated…

Exactly.

:flowers:

19-22 also reads to me as “his faith was credited as righteousness”…

Because of his actions.

I don’t see that; it was because of faith, because “he who works his wages are not a favor but what is due”. Salvation is a favor from God…

My bad. You said:

So justification has nothing about what we do, but something God does to us; and James agrees when we understand him to be saying “justification comes by true faith, which is COMPLETED by good works”.

If it were me, I would have said:

We are not justified by our righteous works. But God does not justify those who do not do righteous works.

I think you said that well. It is as Jesus said in Matt7:14-16; good trees (necessarily) produce good fruit, bad trees bad fruit…

:egyptian:

(I like that Egypt-guy!)

Lol! :whacky:

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hm? Well, if you insist that he was justified at Gen 15:6, what did Abraham’s faith change? Did it change God?

I’ll go a bit further, since Abraham was found faithful in Gen 12, why was he not justified then?

I dunno; perhaps God wanted Abraham to prove something to himself.

Did it change justification? (Jesus’ sacrifice was incomplete?)

Those two things seem disconnected to me. There’s a difference between how Abraham was justified and how we are justified.

The question is still – “Did Jesus complete our justification, or are there some things we do to add to it?”

Man, this is going to deserve a thread of its own.

It might…

First of all, Jesus Christ poured the Holy Spirit out upon us. The Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus died upon the Cross.

Really, the “Pentecost”. People had the Holy Spirit before, but not the same way as we do now…

That is why the Jews, including Abraham, were awaiting Christ’s appearance. Because they could not be made perfect without Him.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went…39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

That’s when they received the renewal of the Holy Spirit. After Jesus died upon the Cross. That’s when they were perfectly justified.

Holy cow, you and I just moved alot closer in understanding!

Remember the parable of the landowner and the labourers. How some worked all day but at the end of the day received the same coin as the one’s who came in at the end of the day? That coin, is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus took His place at the right hand of the Father.

It doesn’t matter if someone serves Jesus all their lives, or comes in “an hour before harvest”; we all receive eternal life.

How much time did the Thief-on-the-cross have? Not much!

Abraham’s justification was forensic. He was not washed or renewed of the Holy Spirit when he was justified. God merely declared the truth. He looked into Abraham’s heart and declared that Abraham was a righteous person.

What was credited — his acting, or his faith?

They can’t be separated.

It says “his belief”.

Here’s a great example. Let’s say that a tight rope walker says, “I can cross the Grand Canyon with someone on my back.” And the crowd goes wild. “Yeah! Yeah!” Then the tight rope walker says, “I need a volunteer.” One guy out of a thousand says, “I’ll do it!”

I wouldn’t! (You wouldn’t even get me out on that cantilevered glass-floored bridge!)

Where’s his credit? In his acting or in his purported faith?

Our faith is affected by our works; works affect faith, and faith receives justification. That is the connection between “works” and “justification” — indirect.

Same thing, that’s what Rom 4:19-22 says about Abraham. Even though he was 100 years old and Sarah was 90 and her body was dried up and she had never had a child, Fr. Abraham did what he needed to do in order to father the child which would make him the Father of all nations. If you read Heb 11, it is very powerful and poignant. He dared to sacrifice his only son believing that God would bring him back to life! That’s true faith! So, how do you divide faith from action.

Action perfects/completes faith; it changes us.

If I understand you correctly, you’ve been saying that his justification was perfected by his works.

No! Faith is perfected by works; increased faith receives justification. Works do not connect to justification, except indirectly through increased faith…

I’m saying that his faith was made perfect by his works and therefore, he was justified.

Just when I think you say “justification is partly by works”, then you’re saying works increase faith and that increased-faith receives justification. And you and I agree that is what Scripture teaches.

Why not? Yes, Jesus is doing our good works. And yes, He gives us credit for the good works which He performs through us.

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Yet “it is not as a result of works lest anyone boast”, and “if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”.

The import of bringing up Abraham in Rm4:2-5, is that “if it was by works then wages would be due; but God’s grace is a favor…”

I see your point. But, there’s a difference between those who do good works before they are justified and those who do good works after they are baptized (Christian justification).

For example. Abraham did good works, right? Was God working through him when he did so? Yes. But was he considered a born again and renewed of the Holy Spirit, when he was alive? No.

Did St. Paul do good works? Yes. Was God working through him? Yes. Was he a born again child of God? Yes.

I’m not so sure “born/begotten-from-above” was a part of the Old Covenant?

Ok.

It’s an important point; “participle”, completely implies if we CONTINUE in the faith!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Faith completed by or perfected by good works? I agree. This is why justification is a process. If we look at Abraham, his justification began in Gen 12 but was not made perfect until Gen 22.

I’ll agree in principle; but how long should it take?

I went on a cruise to Bahama with TV evangelist D. James Kennedy in 1992; ironically, his church is PRESBYTERIAN (Calvinist!) – but he did not preach like a Calvinist. He said:
Dr. Kennedy:

A man learned about the Two Great Commandments, the second “love your neighbor as yourself” — clearly we have to love ourselves before we can love others! So he started a program of counseling and psychiatry, and yes it took twenty years, but then he finally was able to love and accept himself so that he could love others. And — OH! He died! And he’s standing SHOCKED before God, saying “God You screwed up, took me too soon!” Do you really think that’s going to wash with God? It doesn’t take twenty years to realize who we are in Christ, it only takes a moment! And we do not love ourselves narcissistically, we HUMBLE ourselves in the knowledge that HE loved us and died for us!

And that takes only a moment to learn and realize.

 

[Gadgeteer]

There could be no “reformed” theology until Jean (John) Calvin was born in 1509. “Reformed” theology is self-refuting, as it is personal opinion and nothing more. Just that simple.

Hi, po18guy. While you are right, it’s really useful to learn about what other people believe so we can fully “exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict” (Titus1:9).

In my book, I wrote a whole section on Reformed Theology. Four passages found the view (Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom8:29-35, Rom9:11-21). About fifty-five verses form what I call “Secondaries” — that RT’s think further prove Predestined Salvation. It does no good to say “it-is-self-refuting”, they will reject that. Nor does it do any good to refute RT understanding of one or two or ten verses; they have plenty left in their arms to continue. So you have to start with the Secondaries, and do ALL of them at once. Then address the PRIMARIES, showing how they absolutely cannot be promoting “Predestined Election”. Only when an RT’s arms are empty, is there any hope of changing their minds.

(PS — after participating here, I’m going to add Rom11:7-8, which connects with Isaiah6:10 and Matt13:15 — Jesus explains men close their OWN eyes and ears against salvation; but "blessed are YOUR eyes BECAUSE they see (and ears because they hear!))

That connects directly with verses like Lk8:18, “TAKE CARE HOW YOU LISTEN!”

If eyes and ears are sovereignly opened or shut by GOD, then we certainly can not take care how we listen — but because we are ADMONISHED to “take-care-how-we-listen”, it is absolute that we have the control which RT’s claim we do not!

Understand Reformed Theology is a “superior position”. Most will say, “I used to believe as you; but then I (matured, was led by the Spirit, studied Scripture, etceter.)”. So it’s a drop in esteem (even an embarrassment) for them to begin reconsidering their position. As with all Christian interactions, it requires infinite patience, and infinite love.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…here again we are involved in “vocabulary” (understanding).

Non-Catholics emphasize “done deal/completed deal” (I suspect) as a necessary need to combat what they believe is Catholic understanding…

Catholics emphasize collaboration with God in our Salvation and Justification because it is what Scriptures state… yet, we both miss each other because we get caught up in the vocabulary…

…let’s forget this whole argument…

Do you believe that God Saves and Justifies all of humanity?

Yes. Provisionally, and conditionally. 1Tim4:10, "He is the Savior of all men, malista-chiefly (above-all, effectively for) believers!"

Salvation and justification for all, provision by God; saved and justified for those who believe, each of us chooses…

Do you believe that God forces Salvation and Justification on humanity?

Sigh — it says He forces us to the DOOR. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will helkuo-draw/drag-forcibly ALL MEN to Myself."

This mirrors Acts17:26-31, where God puts all men when and where each can seek God and can find Him, He’s not far from anyone; all are commanded to repent, Jesus’ resurrection is proof to all.

So — each is forcefully drawn to the door, but each person fully volitionally chooses to enter in or to turn away. Jn10:9, Jn3:18-19, etcetera…

Do you believe (as the Catholic Church Teaches) that man must collaborate with God in his Salvation and must collaborate with God in his Justification?

100% yes, fully Scriptural.

…this is the actual obstacle that keeps us at disparity when it comes to these two important issues…

While you may see collaboration as unnecessary, Scriptures differ with you since Scriptures assert that man must be in full acceptance of God’s Gift of Salvation and of Grace.

What you view as “works” or “adding” is what the Apostles have adamantly spelled out: Faith without work is void/dead.

It’s a question of what “works”, affect; it reads to me that works only affect our faith, and it is a certain kind of faith that receives salvation.

It is not that man adds to God’s Salvation or Justification but that he must actively engage both Salvation and Justification:

…clearly, the Apostles understood, and Taught, that man must go through a change from unrighteousness to righteousness… and that this change both reflected Fellowship in Christ and man’s determination to Walk in the Holy Spirit.

But which comes first? “righteousness TO salvation”? Or "salvation and Jesus indwelling changing our hearts to HIS righteousness"? (I know you, and you understand the latter same as me…)

In my estimation, Protestantism is still hung up in the fallacy of double predestination and other theologies which makes God fully and completely responsible for man’s Salvation and Justification: God does everything and man is an inert recipient.

Reformed Theology is “double-predestination” — I don’t know how many times I’ve said, “There is no predestination (predestined-election) except double-predestination”.

…so when coming to Catholic understanding, for the non-Catholic, red flags spring up and everything is measured (understood) through the rock of their theology.

Consider St. Paul’s words:

…clearly St. Paul is not intimating that the Suffering Servant’s Afflictions and Death somehow did not fully Atone for God’s Salvific Plan or that man himself had to complete Christ’s Works.

We are coheirs with Christ but only and in as much as we Abide in Christ… that Fellowship requires that we give up the old man (Adam/sin) and take on the new man (Christ/Righteousness of God). Yet, we cannot achieve this through intellectual understanding and methodology and acclamations (‘not all who call Me Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom…’); we must actually make a conscious choice to humbly submit our will to God’s Will–choosing God and producing good fruit!

You and I understand many things in Scripture, alike. And that furthers what I said about “Scripture often asserts as only one possible meaning, so that there is no such thing as ‘interpretation’. When only one meaning exists, we can establish spiritual absolutes by what they wrote.”

 

[Gadgeteer]

And without works, faith is not perfected.

May not be perfected; the “Thief-on-the-cross” is perfect example of “sufficient faith”.

So, you’re looking at it as perfected faith is what receives justification. We look at it as faith and works receives justification. Same thing.

Close.

Look at it this way also, faith without works is not perfected and will not receive justification.

I think James is teaching something a little different; faith if it does not produce good works, is dead/unsaved. All translations I’ve seen get verse 2:14 wrong — the “me-dunamai” construct is properly translated, “That faith can NOT save you, can it!”

And, just to add a cherry to that, Scripture explicitly says, "… by works a man is justified,… (James 2:24) So, we don’t believe we can contradict the Word of God.

You’re right — however — if one passage says “we’re-justified-by-works”, and another passage says “if-it-be-by-works-then-grace-is-not-grace”, and another “he-who-works-his-wages-are-his-DUE-and-not-favor”, then we have to invade each writer’s mind and find out what he intended.

In James2:23 he affirms Paul’s statement, “it was Abraham’s belief that was reckoned as righteousness (caused justification)”. Clearly, “justified by works and not by faith alone”, intends that works affect faith (perfect it!) and therefore full faith receives justification. So works do not touch justification at all; works touch faith, and faith receives justification. And Jesus finished it on the Cross, and “not-by-works” throughout Scripture (Eph2:8, Rm11:6, Rm4:4-5) is served.

It sounds as though we’re saying the same thing. Faith and works = perfect faith. It seems to us that you ignore the works because we notice that God does not justify anyone who does not obey His Son:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

No, not ignorin’ nuthin’. Catholics have been objecting when Protestants say “faith alone”, as if it can come without works (Catholics are right). Protestants object when Catholics say “justification is by faith plus works”, as if Jesus’ sacrifice was not complete (Protestants are right). I think the truth is in the middle; justification IS by faith alone, but true faith is never alone from good works. That’s the message I get from James chapter 2…

We don’t see it that way. We believe that Christ intended for us to imitate His sacrifice. He requires that we add to His sacrifice:

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Excellent citations. Though I don’t see it as “add-to-Jesus’-sacrifice”, but rather “make a full commitment”.

You believe that Christ sacrificed Himself so that we wouldn’t have to.

No, I perceive that we must be “fully committed”. That we truly have to die to sin, and walk with Christ alive in us (Gal2:20).

Paul said in Rom4 “if Abraham was justified by works, he would have something to brag about”. We boast about nothing, except Jesus. (Eph2:9, Gal6:14)

We believe that Christ sacrificed Himself so that we could join Him in the sacrifice.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

Jesus either completed our justification on the Cross, or we have something of our own to add to what He did to justify us.

Yes. We have something to add.
Gadget:

And that is exactly my confusion. To me, “we-have-something-to-add”, by definition means that Jesus’ sacrifice was insufficient. And that sounds opposite to Rom4:

Not the way we read it.

Verse 4:2 says “If it was works, Abraham could brag”. And 4:3 “Abraham’s belief was credited as righteousness/justification”. How do you read that?

What is “grace”, but God’s favor? Which — must be received, and kept. But if a gift is not wholly of the giver, but if even a part of that gift “the receiver works for” (therefore, it’s not a favor but what is due), then how much of Jesus’ sacrifice was (IN-)

effective, so that we have to finish the gap with our own good works? Here’s the way I see it. I told my daughter that I would get her a car if she graduated. She graduated. I gave her a car. Did she earn the car? No. I paid for the car and gave it to her. That is total favor on my part. It’s the same with our relationship to God. Our works are not equal in value to salvation. We do the works. God gives us saving grace. We don’t earn salvation. God gives salvation to those who obey His Son.

As a result of obedience? Or as a result of the kind of faith which exhibits obedience? The difference is subtle, but important.

Yep. Some folks like to say that all gifts are without strings. But that isn’t true. Many gifts have strings attached. They are still free will gifts. But they require the giftee to do something before or even after they receive the gift.

Nothing that changes anything of the gift; all the receiver must do is accept it (which is “wise” if it’s a good gift), and hold onto it…

On the contrary, Jesus did precisely what He was supposed to do. It’s you and I who differ in what Jesus did.

All we do, is receive His gift.

You believe that Jesus finished our justification, apparently, once for all.

Yes! He paid for it with His blood, paid for all of it. By His blood He “canceled our certificate of debt with its charges against us, and was hostile to us, He has …nailed it to the Cross.”

I believe that Jesus finished His part of our justification. Now, we need to do our part.

All we do, is receive it. (Darn, I hope I’m not repeating myself! I hope I’m not repeating myself!)

Lol! The sad thing is that some people are vehemently serious when they say that.

Sometimes I’m serious, sometimes I tease; hopefully I’m transparent enough that people know which is which.

That’s true. But one must still reach out and accept the gift. And unless one reaches out and accepts the gift, one will not receive it.

100% right; “accepts, and KEEPS it!”

“HOLD FAST to what you have heard so that no one will STEAL YOUR CROWN!” Rev3:11!

 

[De_Maria]

…

It’s pretty iron-clad, and no OSAS person has any defense or response.

ok

From God’s side,it is;

Why does Scripture say?

John 15:
The Vine and the Branches. 1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. 2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and every one that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. 3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.

Sounds as though God the Father dispatches all those who don’t produced good works.

but from our side, we 100% can walk away from justification and from God.

Agreed.

Goodness, how do OSAS people view deceivers? Dullards who waste their time trying to diminish shiny CROWNS for us? Deceivers are not rocket surgeons (how smart was it to get kicked outta Heaven?!) — but they really seek to steal eternity itself from us!

“I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his lies, YOUR minds should ALSO be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ!” 2Cor11:3

"HOLD FAST to what you have that no one will STEAL YOUR CROWN!" Rev3:11

Agreed.

They are coincident in places like 1Cor6:11.

Tell me (if you will) — if waterbaptism is necessary for “justification”, and if we can get “re-justified”, do we have to get redipped?

No. Just ask for forgiveness in the Sacrament of Confession.

2 Corinthians 5:20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Not necessarily true. James says (last two verses) — “Brethren, if any among you wander away from the faith, and (if) another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death (psuche-thanatos) and covered many sins!”

Such a person who “wanders-away”; is he still “born/begotten from above”? No way. If he’s led back, is he born-again-again? Has to be.

1st. The Catholic Church Teaches otherwise. All that is needed is repentance and Confession.
2nd. Has to be? Says who? I don’t see any such thing in Scripture.

If you talk to an OSAS person who says “you cannot become unborn”, unborn is exactly what Heb12:7-9 warns!

Hebrews 12:7 Endure your trials as “discipline”; God treats you as sons. For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards. 9 Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not [then] submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live?

To me, this says the same as Mark 16:16:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

In other words, if you don’t believe and yet are baptized, its a form of sacrilege. It’s like the son who says he will obey the Father but then disobeys. He isn’t unborn. But he is disowned.

(7) If you endure discipline, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
(8) But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
(9) Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?"

Correct. Nothing there about being unborn. But like illegitimate children, are born under false circumstances.

We have become partakers/partners (past tense!), but if we are NOW WITHOUT it, we are (no longer!) sons but (have become!) illegitimate! Make a choice — continue subject to God and live, or turn away (and not live). It’s furthered in verses like 12:25 — “much less shall we escape who turn away from God!”

Amen!

I won’t argue “waterbaptism” here. I would just see if you agree that Jesus’ blood really washes away our sins; and — see if you agree that Luke12:50, and Mark10:38, are not talking about water?

What came out of Jesus side when He was crucified?
What does Scripture say we are washed with? (Eph 5:26).
Yes, we are cleansed by Jesus’ blood? Where do you get it? We get it in the Eucharist.

 

[De_Maria]

His mercy is poured out on all men, Rom11:32.

Not the same thing. In context, St. Paul is talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit. All men do not receive this gift.

Calvinists refuse to acknowledge this, inventing ideas like “pas doesn’t really mean EVERYONE, but only some of all TYPES”. (Yes it does.)

That’s true. But mercy, in Rom 11:32, is not equivalent to the Holy Spirit.

You perceive “washing-of-water-and-regeneration”, I perceive “the-regeneration-is-what-washes-us”.

At this point, I think we need to talk about “authority”. You see, I don’t interpret Scripture privately:

2 Peter 1:19 Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20** Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,** 21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

Do you?

Not in Acts8:16 (water-before-Spirit), and not in Acts10:47 (Spirit-before-water). Not arguin’, just sayin’…

Indwelling only occurs at water Baptism. That’s not in Scripture. That is Catholic Teaching. Authority.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Everyone is to submit to Christ’s Church.

Do you know it’s the same Greek “pour” (ekcheo) in Titus3:6, as it is in Acts10:46?

And?

That’s right. And all OUR righteousness is as filthy rags. (The actual word used in Isaiah for “filthy-rags”, is a whole lot worse…)

And yet:

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

Really, the whole letter of Hebrews. What in the world else could verses like Heb4:11 mean? (I look forward to your thoughts on what I just said about chapter 12!)

We’ve already agreed that “once saved always saved” is a false doctrine. So, unless you’ve changed your mind, no need to revisit.

As you and I just discussed, in places like James5:19-20, it has to be that one can become re-justified and re-sanctified and re-regenerated…

We just call it “reconciled”.

I don’t see that; it was because of faith, because “he who works his wages are not a favor but what is due”. Salvation is a favor from God…

I’ll see what you say with the father daughter graduation car example I provided.

 

[jcrichton]

Our faith is affected by our works; works affect faith, and faith receives justification. That is the connection between “works” and “justification” — indirect.
Action perfects/completes faith; it changes us.

No! Faith is perfected by works; increased faith receives justification. Works do not connect to justification, except indirectly through increased faith…

Just when I think you say “justification is partly by works”, then you’re saying works increase faith and that increased-faith receives justification. And you and I agree that is what Scripture teaches.

Yet “it is not as a result of works lest anyone boast”, and “if it be by works then grace is no longer grace”.

The import of bringing up Abraham in Rm4:2-5, is that “if it was by works then wages would be due; but God’s grace is a favor…”

I’m not so sure “born/begotten-from-above” was a part of the Old Covenant?

It’s an important point; “participle”, completely implies if we CONTINUE in the faith!

Hi, Gadgeteer!

…here’s where our understanding differ…

…our works do not increase our Faith; rather, our works demonstrate our Faith… remember the young rich man that came to Jesus? He was a commendable person (Jesus Knew his heart so He Knew he was not simply being boastful and filled with empty pride)… he followed and obeyed Yahweh God’s Commandments from childhood and lived in accordance with God’s Sacred Scriptures…

…Jesus tested his Faith: ‘sell what you have, give to the poor, and Come Follow Me.’

…the Faith was there; the knowledge of God was there; the religiosity was there… but there was one step that he could not take… he could not let go of the world and embrace God Fully. When urged to become more (put your works where your mouth is), the young man’s Faith was left without the deeds of conviction and acceptance of God’s Will.

While Jesus in deed commended him, here’s how this discourse ended:

23 Jesus looked round and said to his disciples, ‘How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!’

(St. Mark 10:23)
…some jump for joy on hearing/reading this passage… it seems to suggest that the wealthy will not inherit the Kingdom… yet, our riches could well be of financial independence… but it could also be “intellect” or “pride” or “cowardice” or “complacency” or “egocentrism;” anything that man places above God becomes the riches that could make us stumble and, as the rich young man, fall short of Justification as we would emulate Cain and follow his Fellowship instead of Abel’s example.

Our works does in deed impact our Justification since our Faith cannot be rendered to God empty of our works.

Can we hinder our Justification? Yes! As the rich young man placed his heart on earthly treasures, we can in deed hider our Justification by seeking to present to God the works of our hands that are inspired on our earthly attachments…

Cain threw things together and pretended to be Serving God in a Righteous and dutiful manner–as the married couple, Ananias and Sapphira, who thought they could pull the wool over St. Peter’s eyes, those who go by the way of Cain are shortchanging God with their half-heartfelt commitment and devotion; yet, in effect, they are really stealing from themselves since they are losing out on their Justification. (Please, consider also the offering at the Temple: St. Matthew 5:21-24.)

Maran atha!

Angel