Relationship HELP

[prodigalson12]

I think you misunderstood what I meant to say.

I meant to say that out of all the middle aged men who dream of marrying young and gorgeous women (and there’s no denying that they dream of this), only middle aged men who are truly exceptional (like extremely wealthy, or have very high status) would have a chance because young and gorgeous women can pretty much get their top choice of available men.

If you have many examples of gorgeous women in their 20’s with average guys 20 or more years older, I’d be surprised. I’ve never seen it.

I did not say that young and beautiful women would prefer middle aged but wealthy and powerful men.

I do still hold that chances are that most (and most likely all) middle aged men on this forum who are wishing for a young and beautiful woman will never find such a woman, because unless they are incredibly exceptional she has no reason whatsoever to choose them over more attractive younger men (younger as in in her age group) who would all be competing for her.

There are huge negative factors attached to a significantly older man, namely that he will get old and sick while she is still strong, and die while she still has plenty of good years left. Not to mention that middle aged men are not attractive, and single middle aged men are usually single for a reason. He’d have to offer some pretty amazing things that younger men don’t have.

Well, I have to add onto this and play a little devils advocate…

Age can be a number alone when it all boils down to it, there are plenty of guys much younger then myself that absolutely cannot keep up with me on the physical element, work being one department, others I care not to discuss on this board and just because we have reached that so called “middle” age doesn’t mean we are ready to start digging our graves just yet. There are plenty of gals that are the same way. There are also plenty of those in their early 20’s, so out of shape with the energy level of a 90 year old, that to simply go by age alone across the board is not being fair to anyone.

Making a blanket statement that we all desire to have some young beautiful girl as a trophy wife is also not correct in the least, if one has any kind of depth the last thing they want to be attached to in any way is some shell of an individual, or worse, some immature child that we end up having to play father figure to. As an artist, I can indeed appreciate the beauty of some drop dead gorgeous woman, as a man, I cannot deny some kind of physical attraction, but it stops at there and even then, with the latter, quite rare it even goes that far or anything else beyond a casual notice if one is standing right in front of my line of vision. What bugs me though, sometimes I’ve had these gals checking me out and I’m thinking, I’m older then your parents, what on earth can you be thinking, get real !? lol

With some examples on them being 20 years apart, ever look into the celebrity scene, count how many are there in that regards, but consider how empty their marriages end up being, it’s all money and money alone that motivates them.

Now, personal tastes here, I prefer they are close to my age, “either” direction, doesn’t matter, but there is a lot to say about life experiences, and honestly I could never relate to someone that has never had much of it, yet I have to explain, some of the most immature, selfish little brats “men and women” I’ve ever encountered are much older then myself, and some of the most level headed, mature people I’ve ever met were much younger then myself so that age thing is not the defining factor what so ever in regards to people.

Now, there are some younger women who absolutely prefer older men, they appreciate their stability because they have matured and in general, got their careers and acts together compared to the younger guys that are still trying to figure it out. They also know where our experience has huge advantages in many areas over the younger counterparts, and those of us that have not let ourselves go, the physical attraction is a non issue, for unfortunately for the ladies, we can look more distinguished as we age, age is a harsh mistress to you gals in that regards and this is entirely because both sides gauge their attraction upon separate areas, ie. guys are supposed to be rugged and unadorned while women are supposed to be soft and alluring…

Upon the latter note ladies, just because you are getting up there in years and because you are happily married shouldn’t mean that the makeup kit falls onto the wayside, we still find you attractive and accentuating it is not a bad thing at all even if the makeup has to come off at night and I can say the same for you married guys that decide the pot belly or what ever, fall by the wayside as well, for your wives still would like to see you making an attempt if anything to keep yourselves as attractive to them as well, just like both did before you got married…

 

[whatevergirl]

*I find these stereotypes getting funny…

I am told I look younger than I am…my husband is nearly 51, I’m 40…he finds me beautiful and I find him to be handsome, still, after all these years. (and we’re not just saying that) Still attracted to each other…however, a deeper love though than when we were dating…

I wonder when people started viewing 40 as ‘‘old,’’ for either gender. That’s kind of sad…I don’t feel ‘‘old.’’ Some days, my memory does though. Are you meeting women who are in their 40’s and look considerably older? I guess I don’t understand the stereotypes… *

 

[flyingfish]

Well, I have to add onto this and play a little devils advocate…

Age can be a number alone when it all boils down to it, there are plenty of guys much younger then myself that absolutely cannot keep up with me on the physical element, work being one department, others I care not to discuss on this board and just because we have reached that so called “middle” age doesn’t mean we are ready to start digging our graves just yet. There are plenty of gals that are the same way. There are also plenty of those in their early 20’s, so out of shape with the energy level of a 90 year old, that to simply go by age alone across the board is not being fair to anyone.

Making a blanket statement that we all desire to have some young beautiful girl as a trophy wife is also not correct in the least, if one has any kind of depth the last thing they want to be attached to in any way is some shell of an individual, or worse, some immature child that we end up having to play father figure to. As an artist, I can indeed appreciate the beauty of some drop dead gorgeous woman, as a man, I cannot deny some kind of physical attraction, but it stops at there and even then, with the latter, quite rare it even goes that far or anything else beyond a casual notice if one is standing right in front of my line of vision. What bugs me though, sometimes I’ve had these gals checking me out and I’m thinking, I’m older then your parents, what on earth can you be thinking, get real !? lol

With some examples on them being 20 years apart, ever look into the celebrity scene, count how many are there in that regards, but consider how empty their marriages end up being, it’s all money and money alone that motivates them.

Now, personal tastes here, I prefer they are close to my age, “either” direction, doesn’t matter, but there is a lot to say about life experiences, and honestly I could never relate to someone that has never had much of it, yet I have to explain, some of the most immature, selfish little brats “men and women” I’ve ever encountered are much older then myself, and some of the most level headed, mature people I’ve ever met were much younger then myself so that age thing is not the defining factor what so ever in regards to people.

Now, there are some younger women who absolutely prefer older men, they appreciate their stability because they have matured and in general, got their careers and acts together compared to the younger guys that are still trying to figure it out. They also know where our experience has huge advantages in many areas over the younger counterparts, and those of us that have not let ourselves go, the physical attraction is a non issue, for unfortunately for the ladies, we can look more distinguished as we age, age is a harsh mistress to you gals in that regards and this is entirely because both sides gauge their attraction upon separate areas, ie. guys are supposed to be rugged and unadorned while women are supposed to be soft and alluring…

Upon the latter note ladies, just because you are getting up there in years and because you are happily married shouldn’t mean that the makeup kit falls onto the wayside, we still find you attractive and accentuating it is not a bad thing at all even if the makeup has to come off at night and I can say the same for you married guys that decide the pot belly or what ever, fall by the wayside as well, for your wives still would like to see you making an attempt if anything to keep yourselves as attractive to them as well, just like both did before you got married…

Well, I didn’t mean to say that all middle aged men are looking for much younger, beautiful women. I meant to talk about those that do.

Also, trophy wife does not have to mean someone who is empty, stupid, or immoral. The ideal trophy wife would be young, gorgeous, very intelligent, highly educated, professionally successful, athletic, mature, high sex drive and so on. It’s not just about looks, it’s about the whole package of things that men desire.

Of course it is pretty amusing for me, a woman in her 20’s, to see middle aged men complaining about dating unattractive women and thinking that they have a chance in hell of finding a young and beautiful woman to date. If you’re a single middle aged man, sorry but you don’t get to be picky. If you’re picky, you’re going to stay single. (And I’d say the same to a single middle aged woman.)

And sure there are plenty of middle aged men who are in good shape, and maybe you can increase your life expectancy somewhat by staying in good shape. But there is still a limit to what you can do. Aging happens because your DNA degrades, and no amount of being in shape will save you from it. Men have a lower life expectancy than women to begin with.

 

[prodigalson12]

Well, I didn’t mean to say that all middle aged men are looking for much younger, beautiful women. I meant to talk about those that do.

Also, trophy wife does not have to mean someone who is empty, stupid, or immoral. The ideal trophy wife would be young, gorgeous, very intelligent, highly educated, professionally successful, athletic, mature, high sex drive and so on. It’s not just about looks, it’s about the whole package of things that men desire.

Of course it is pretty amusing for me, a woman in her 20’s, to see middle aged men complaining about dating unattractive women and thinking that they have a chance in hell of finding a young and beautiful woman to date. If you’re a single middle aged man, sorry but you don’t get to be picky. If you’re picky, you’re going to stay single. (And I’d say the same to a single middle aged woman.)

And sure there are plenty of middle aged men who are in good shape, and maybe you can increase your life expectancy somewhat by staying in good shape. But there is still a limit to what you can do. Aging happens because your DNA degrades, and no amount of being in shape will save you from it. Men have a lower life expectancy than women to begin with.

Aging is relevant to God’s terms when it comes down to it, if he sees fit you are to be mobile even if the person is up there in ages in one area, he’ll make it so for he very much can,. It rather defeats the strictly scientific method don’t you think, and we have this crazy book that clearly shows people living for many, many years way beyond the current life span… why is it ya think??? Grandmother is 100 going on 20 lol, God bless her!!!

Ok, along some middle age guy that thinks it’s impossible to get some 20 year old gal, it’s all about how best to lie, lye, and lie, because players do just that. The thing is, why bother, honestly, why bother at all.

 

[sanctamaria17]

If you’re not attracted or feel like God isn’t there, or whatever, then be honest, say it won’t work, and leave. Do NOT keep them on a string. I’ve had that done to me, TWICE, and it hurt me, hurt me so bad, it scared me from future relationships. AND I’M ONLY TWENTY!!! My friends are getting MARRIED and I’m scared of love because some guys made me believe they wanted something more when they actually didn’t but they felt guilty or they were cowards or whatever.

Also, it hurts when you hear all these Catholic boys stating how all they want is a good Catholic girl, someone who’s compassionate, kind, funny, smart, spiritual, etc yet when it actually comes down to it, they want someone who is drop dead gorgeous and has no baggage whatsoever. Yeah, yeah, I hear about visual whatever all the time but sometimes, people put so much stock in biology they forget the important things.

Seriously, giving her “time to lose weight”? You kiddin’ me? Not cool. You either love her as she is, for who she is and don’t try to fix her or you be a gentleman, be honest, and leave while it’s still young.

Don’t lead people on and don’t try to fix them. Sorry but love is supposed to be unconditional and if you can’t go in with that, you’ve got no business being involved.

 

[flyingfish]

Aging is relevant to God’s terms when it comes down to it, if he sees fit you are to be mobile even if the person is up there in ages in one area, he’ll make it so for he very much can,. It rather defeats the strictly scientific method don’t you think, and we have this crazy book that clearly shows people living for many, many years way beyond the current life span… why is it ya think??? Grandmother is 100 going on 20 lol, God bless her!!!

I think that God’s terms are expressed in the laws of nature. I don’t think God interferes with nature to alter the lifespans of specific people. Some people live longer than average in part because of their lifestyle, in part because of their genes. Different people age differently.

I haven’t researched aging enough to know how much lifestyle and how much genetics contribute. I do remember something about how people living into their 90’s and older had somewhat different cholesterol molecules, and the kind of cholesterol you had in you was determined entirely by your genes.

If your grandmother is 100 and strong, night be you inherited those genes and will also live a long and active life.

 

[excaliber]

I have been away from the thread a few days, not sure what the topic is on exactly now…
But I broke it of, it was hard and It at first seemed like she was gona
try to keep it goin anyway…

But when the issue of phisical atraction came up, then she let it go. I didn’t want to bring it up, but she pushed the issue.

Don’t know what to do to make her feel better, nothing I say seems to work.

She is nice…but I think most men
have a GENERAL type that is a turn on for them…I said general type not picky. And atleast SOME of what turns a guy on would have to be there, or there is no potential
for a healthy sex life.

For example if a man is REALY turned on by women that have a
nice behind…( trying to figure a way of saying this)…but the woman he meets is extremely flat in that area she would need to have a strong point in SOME other
area to turn the guy on.

HOWEVER! If that same guy who likes women with a nice behind finds a girl that looks good in that area…BUT mabey over weight from pregnancies. Or she may just
be below average in a lot of other areas. It can still work, she dosent have to be even close to miss america because she has what turns him on.

But it wouldn’t work if she didn’t
have a nice behind, AND was below average in other areas. Simply know way to get turned on.

This obviously is different for each man according to preference.
But what can happen is that a girl may not be very phisicaly atractive
to HIM, but be so nice and fun. That the guy try’s to just make it work…but when the woman starts to expect phisical displays of affection later in the relationship.
The man can discover that he just can’t force himself to become atracted even if he wants to.

So the woman I was with, has something that another man would see as atractive, and that would over rule her weight…it simply would not matter that she was over weight as long as he was turned on by it.

BUT HOW CAN I EXPLAIN THAT TO HER! without her getting upset?

I want her to know that she is not unattractive, just not my type.

 

[flyingfish]

So the woman I was with, has something that another man would see as atractive, and that would over rule her weight…it simply would not matter that she was over weight as long as he was turned on by it.

BUT HOW CAN I EXPLAIN THAT TO HER! without her getting upset?

I want her to know that she is not unattractive, just not my type.

There’s really nothing you can say, even if you had a good way to explain it she wouldn’t believe you because it would seem like you’re just trying to make her feel better (which you are).

Just don’t say anything, tell her she’s pretty but you might think your sister is pretty without being sexually attracted to her. Don’t comment about her body parts.

It’s quite normal, I mean there are some men who are tall, muscular, lean but still not attractive to me. I can still acknowledge that they are good looking, but I don’t feel a sexual attraction and wouldn’t want to date them.

Just tell her that and be done with it.

You really shouldn’t talk about her butt or breasts or whatever feature you think she has that another man might find attractive. It’s just too weird. Tell her you think she’s pretty but there is no chemistry and you don’t know why. (It might be a lie, but it’s a kind lie.)

 

[chevalier]

Right, I would agree with you. If your girlfriend abuses you to the extent that you become brainwashed and truly believe that you’re worthless and won’t be able to survive without her, then yeah you were bullied.

To achieve this effect without physical violence, there would have to be some severe stuff going on. Probably isolation from family friends, threats, constant put downs, maybe mental illness in the victim in the first place. Even then, it’s just hard to believe that you can induce this kind of an effect by just talking to a person. Maybe you can if it’s a child and you’re the abusive parent, but an adult? I mean, if I was with someone who talked that way to me for 5 minutes that would be the end of the relationship. There would have to be some prior damage for a person to stay through that and become brainwashed rather than leave.

More or less agreed, though let’s keep proportion. Bullying is intimidating. At one level you’re bullied by an abuser, with a lot of isolation and brainwash, to stay with him and put up with his awful behaviour. At a lower level and, consequently, with smaller means, you’re bullied into not breaking up where you otherwise would. I’m not saying the OP or Prodigal was intimidated because I don’t have sufficient data to say yes or no, it always being necessary to presume in favour of a person rather than against, but there was a couple of factors that reduced the freedom of OP’s decision process and bigger factors in case of Prodigal. If you say the one or the other was weak, that’s not a crime, though that would necessitate some work in order to overcome that weakness, once identified. Now, if you say it’s all bogus excuses, then that’s a real charge and the same rules apply - we’ve got to be as skeptical with that charge as with any other.

As I see it, you want to discount the weight of omnipresent excuses that are so widespread in our culture and you want people to take more responsibility for their actions instead of yielding to small amounts of pressure and later using it as an excuse. That’s a good thing and I sympathise with the sentiment (with some reservations), but on the other hand, calling things their proper names works in both directions, so in order to do justice, one needs to accept some of the excuses that one doesn’t like, if they seem to have influenced someone’s decision process and led to a mistake. This is the reason why I resist making the definitions stricter.

This just doesn’t seem like what the other guy whom this happened to described. He just complained about how he’s such a wonderfully loyal man that he stayed with a 250 pound woman to rescue her . Allegedly he was bullied, but he didn’t describe any situation where he was threatened and abused.

Firstly, people’s sense of loyalty can have that kind of effect. My own is not as strong as to tolerate, say, blatant injustice or forget about canon 1095, but I can take a lot (until I can’t). I can empathise with Prodigal to an extent. Now, your other statement implies he stayed to rescue her from the 250 pound weight, which is not necessarily and rather not probably true. The saving the damsel complex generally pairs with depression on the woman’s part, at least some psychological causes that make her unhappy (distressed) and/or a woeful history that requires compassion and makes a man feel particularly evil to take anything against that woman, let alone leave her. Prior abuse is one of such possible histories.

Sounds like another guy wanting to see himself as a great person and his ex as a terrible, manipulative woman.

Yes, it seems one-sided, but then most relations given by one side of a relationship tend to sound that way. He doesn’t make her into a horrible person, furthermore, but he clearly sees her as a troubled one, diseased so to say, and he wishes her all the best. I think it invalidates your extrapolation, if you pardon my French.

I think it would be interesting to hear this story from the woman’s perspective to find out just how pushy she was and just how overweight she really is and just how much she was pursued or not pursued. I also would be interested in knowing exactly how long this relationship has been going on.

Yes, it would. So far my guess is that she was falling too hard too fast and subconsciously trying to bond the man to her as if, “by conclusion of facts.” Anyone who is desperate is liable to do that - it’s not a crime, but it makes things hard on the other party and it’s unfair to him or her. Guys do that by kissing the girl out of the blue, being super-charming, paying for lavish dates and expecting to bind the woman with gratitude and thus make her better predisposed towards their advances and so on. Familiar?

 

[sanctamaria17]

It’s not about even whether or not you’re attracted to her, OP. The fact is, you admitted to giving her a timetable to get the body type that YOU want. You admitted to telling her what to wear. That’s what all of us were upset about.

Honestly, you just have to make a clean break. Tell her you like her as a person but that there’s no romantic chemistry on your part. That’s all she needs to know.

 

[flyingfish]

As I see it, you want to discount the weight of omnipresent excuses that are so widespread in our culture and you want people to take more responsibility for their actions instead of yielding to small amounts of pressure and later using it as an excuse.

To be honest I’m not that big on responsibility, I think the way people think and the way people act is largely outside of their control.

It’s just very funny to me to see a guy saying that a fat, unattractive lady somehow bullied him into staying with her for 10 years because he is such a great and loyal guy.

If he is so “loyal” (I wouldn’t call it loyal, I would call it abnormal) that he is unable to break up with a person that he doesn’t want to be with at all, then the fault is not the woman’s but whatever caused his personality to develop in such a way as to cause him to be unable to behave like a normal person in the situation.

I am just generally skeptical that he stayed with her because he is so “loyal”, he probably stayed with her because he was deriving some benefit from their relationship. Later when things ended badly he decided that it would be more in sync with his perception of himself to blame her for manipulating him into the relationship.

 

[chevalier]

To be honest I’m not that big on responsibility, I think the way people think and the way people act is largely outside of their control.

It’s just very funny to me to see a guy saying that a fat, unattractive lady somehow bullied him into staying with her for 10 years because he is such a great and loyal guy.

If he is so “loyal” (I wouldn’t call it loyal, I would call it abnormal) that he is unable to break up with a person that he doesn’t want to be with at all, then the fault is not the woman’s but whatever caused his personality to develop in such a way as to cause him to be unable to behave like a normal person in the situation.

I am just generally skeptical that he stayed with her because he is so “loyal”, he probably stayed with her because he was deriving some benefit from their relationship. Later when things ended badly he decided that it would be more in sync with his perception of himself to blame her for manipulating him into the relationship.

They say a relationship is controlled by the person who cares less. That’s because of greater fear of loss. The fear of loss is a capable tool of bullying. I’ve seen it in practice. Sudden departures, questioning the future of the relationship, prolonged silence or sulkingo or whatever else falls under passive agressive behaviour. It makes people drop certain subjects, stop asking about certain things and so on if they want to keep the relationship. Refusal to see wrongness in a partner, low self-esteem, despair, lack of faith in one’s ability to find a new partner, all those things make the implicit threat of ending the relationship work. Sometimes just implicit disdain is enough, even without a threat of ending the relationship. Chances are it’s so exotic to you because you haven’t come across live examples of that, but I wouldn’t know that, of course. At any rate, it seems to me you’re downplaying this kind of bullying too much, just like Prodigal might possibly be overestimating the power of it.

 

[flyingfish]

They say a relationship is controlled by the person who cares less. That’s because of greater fear of loss. The fear of loss is a capable tool of bullying. I’ve seen it in practice. Sudden departures, questioning the future of the relationship, prolonged silence or sulkingo or whatever else falls under passive agressive behaviour. It makes people drop certain subjects, stop asking about certain things and so on if they want to keep the relationship. Refusal to see wrongness in a partner, low self-esteem, despair, lack of faith in one’s ability to find a new partner, all those things make the implicit threat of ending the relationship work. Sometimes just implicit disdain is enough, even without a threat of ending the relationship. Chances are it’s so exotic to you because you haven’t come across live examples of that, but I wouldn’t know that, of course. At any rate, it seems to me you’re downplaying this kind of bullying too much, just like Prodigal might possibly be overestimating the power of it.

I’ll agree that if your partner knows that you’re an emotional wreck whose great fear is to be alone, and consciously uses this fact to get you to do things you don’t want to do then yeah, they are a bully.

But this sort of situation would seem to be pretty rare. I think it would take a psychopath to take advantage of someone who is an emotional wreck in that deliberate and calculated way.

But having said that, the reason the partner who is the emotional wreck would stay wouldn’t be because they were bullied into it, but because for whatever other reason (child abuse? mental illness?) they were so dreadfully afraid of being alone that they were willing to be with a psychopathic partner.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

A lot of truth and keen observation in what you wrote, Chev.

 

[chevalier]

A lot of truth and keen observation in what you wrote, Chev.

Thank you.

I’ll agree that if your partner knows that you’re an emotional wreck whose great fear is to be alone, and consciously uses this fact to get you to do things you don’t want to do then yeah, they are a bully.

But this sort of situation would seem to be pretty rare. I think it would take a psychopath to take advantage of someone who is an emotional wreck in that deliberate and calculated way.

But having said that, the reason the partner who is the emotional wreck would stay wouldn’t be because they were bullied into it, but because for whatever other reason (child abuse? mental illness?) they were so dreadfully afraid of being alone that they were willing to be with a psychopathic partner.

It would truly take a person with huge issues to stay with a partner being what’s commonly understood as psychopathic (strictly speaking, however, it’s all about anti-certain social traits reaching a required degree and some believe it’s the high end of NPD), but we aren’t necessarily talking about the most extreme possible cases. Without wanting to be rude, it seems to me that your logic contains two errors: firstly, it seems to presume extremes and to shape definitions in an unusually narrow way, secondly, it seems not to take into consideration the common realities of relationships and people being in love into consideration - it doesn’t work as coolly and level-headedly as in professional relationships. In everyday life, you’re more likely to find people who have somewhat lower moral inhibitions, are somewhat more insistent on gratification, generally but not fully without mental impairment (meaning they don’t fully understand their behaviour), generally irreformable. They won’t present themselves clearly as a psychopath because, well, they aren’t clearly one. The ill effects they have on other people will be smaller, too. However, they will still manage to tangle people in disordered situations and the method will precisely be some form of bullying, i.e. manipulation that involves intimidation.

 

[flyingfish]

Thank you.

It would truly take a person with huge issues to stay with a partner being what’s commonly understood as psychopathic (strictly speaking, however, it’s all about anti-certain social traits reaching a required degree), but we aren’t necessarily talking about the most extreme possible cases. Without wanting to be rude, it seems to me that your logic contains two errors: firstly, it seems to presume extremes and to shape definitions in an unusually narrow way, secondly, it seems not to take into consideration the common realities of relationships and people being in love into consideration - it doesn’t work as coolly and level-headedly as in professional relationships.

I think it would take pretty extreme circumstances to be able to bully a grown man into staying with you for 10 years when he doesn’t want to. Either extremes on the woman’s part (like threats, brainwashing) or extremes on the man’s part (like being an emotional wreck deathly afraid of being alone), or some combination of the two.

Normal and healthy people can’t be bullied into a relationship, and naturally normal and healthy people don’t bully others into relationships.

 

[chevalier]

Combination means components need not be as strong individually.

And no one claims Prodigal was perfectly healthy throughout that relationship or that the woman was. In fact, he denies she was and it can safely be presumed he eventually shook off something he came to consider abnormal. And yes, 10 years is awfully long. But what’s the point?

 

[whatevergirl]

*I am intrigued at how hard it is for some people to end a nowhere ‘‘relationship.’’ excaliber, what you had with this woman barely constitutes a relationship in my eyes. A few dates…you weren’t attracted…time to move on. I dated a lot in college…and there were some guys that I knew after a date or two, that it wasn’t going to head anywhere…and so I had no problems ending it. Sometimes, you just have to say…we need to go our separate ways, now. Sorry it didn’t work out.

I don’t believe in…well, maybe I should date her/him, and see if I become attracted…Attraction, in my eyes, comes first…if that is not there after a few dates, why force it? Just my two cents. *