Relativism and skepticism are logical suicide

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EndTimes said:
It’s very easy to learn the “Rules” of the God of Abraham… and also the Legion of Philosophies
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Hang on I said “if the God you mention doesn’t exist” and then you assumed he existed. The certainty you feel is shared by believers of all religions, and they all make the same claims.

Yes I would use the term I quoted above, agnostic atheist.

What about anarchism? I don’t really care how people justify their behavior. You’ll find people of all backgrounds in prison for all manner of crime everywhere in the world so I simply don’t find a strong connection between belief and good actions. One group perhaps feels more guilt about the pain they cause, but they don’t seem to cause it any less.
 
Dan Said: If the God you mention doesn’t exist then we don’t know what the rules are.

EndTimes Said: Totally UnTrue…

It’s very easy to learn the “Rules” of the God of Abraham… and also the Legion of Philosophies
Dan123 said:
Hang on I said “if the God you mention doesn’t exist” and then you assumed he existed.
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Hang on… It is very easy to know what the rules of the God in the Bible are…

E.G.? The 10 Commandments.

Whether anyone believes in God or not …
is of no consequence wrt the rules connected w/the one in the Bible - who’s referred as God!

Any Skeptic and/or Agnostic that I’ve met…
is very well aware of much of what e.g, Christianity is all about.

Even you reveal some awareness … when you said:

" If there’s a higher truth revealed to us when we die, so be it. "

Fact is also, anyone who’s on a Catholic Forum
  • soon becomes very aware of what said “Rules” are, Dan… .
So your argument against FenceSitters not knowing about God …

" If the God you mention doesn’t exist then we don’t know what the rules are. "

is not so…
 
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EndTimes said:
Even you reveal some awareness … when you said:

" If there’s a higher truth revealed to us when we die, so be it. "

Fact is also, anyone who’s on a Catholic Forum
  • soon becomes very aware of what said “Rules” are, Dan… .
So your argument against FenceSitters not knowing about God …

" If the God you mention doesn’t exist then we don’t know what the rules are. "

is not so…
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I’m aware of numerous religions. I suspect you spend very little time worrying whether you’re adhering to other religion’s rules. You said ‘its better to take the leap’ than to sit on the fence. I was pointing out you presupposed that leap would be to the religion you believe in. Why would someone want to claim to have an answer to a question if they don’t think there’s good evidence for that answer?
 
Dan123 said:
You said ‘its better to take the leap’ than to sit on the fence.
I was pointing out you presupposed that leap would be to the religion you believe in.
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No… No Presupposition.

It’s a/the LEAP to either side of a Yes OR No wrt the God of Abraham and His Kingdom -
that shall educate a Fence-Straddler who can never know via Straddling the Fence 🙂
 
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Sometimes “I don’t know” is the best answer when you don’t have sufficient evidence to make a decision. Sometimes it’s the most honest answer. You feel you have sufficient reason to believe and that’s great. Many aren’t in that situation. Yelling “get off the fence” is encouraging people to abandon reason, I’ve never heard someone claim God wanted us to find him by abandoning reason.
 
Dan123 said:
Sometimes “I don’t know” is the best answer when you don’t have sufficient evidence to make a decision.

Sometimes it’s the most honest answer. You feel you have sufficient reason to believe and that’s great. Many aren’t in that situation.

Yelling “get off the fence” is encouraging people to abandon reason, I’ve never heard someone claim God wanted us to find him by abandoning reason.
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I hear you and respect that . But Hold the phone. I’m not yelling… I’m saying…

It may really be a understandable understanding that
One can never get to Faith via solely seeking evidence.

I understand how/why some can only seek evidences

Experientially … that’s not where it’s at.

As in… Stop Seeking Evidences! (whoops, I yelled) .

FAITH? Is as as a Key which opens the door to Light - which is the very opposite of blind…

I’ve read Marx, Hitler and Jesus - Their Words

For me. That is the manner I chose to get to know them and form my opinions/etc…

_
 
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So then fundamentally the question becomes “is faith a reliable source for finding truth?”

If it was I’d expect less diversity in religious beliefs around the world. Seems like you’d see more convergence as people eventually gravitated towards the genuine teachings.
 
Dan123 said:
If it was I’d expect less diversity in religious beliefs around the world.
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Argomentum ad populum. The truth would still be the same even if no one believed it.
How many people in the world, outside the West, accept evolution? How many people, even in the West, actually understand it?
Dan123 said:
Seems like you’d see more convergence as people eventually gravitated towards the genuine teachings.
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Non sequitur. This is grounded on the assumption that, once people know the truth, everyone (or at least the majority ) accepts it.
Bad news: intellectual honesty is rare even among learned people, how much do you expect it to be among the average population?
 
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LeonardDeNoblac said:
Argomentum ad populum. The truth would still be the same even if no one believed it.
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It’s not, I’m not arguing whether a particular claim is true or false, only whether faith, as proposed by EndTimes, is a reliable way to find truth. As an example suppose I tell you I tested 5 gps units, put the same address into each, but arrived at 5 different addresses. Before I tell you if one of the 5 addresses was the correct one that I’d entered, you already know GPS in my scenario seems like an unreliable method of finding an address. In this analogy if 3 of the units brought me to the same address and the other 2 brought me somewhere else, an ad populum error would be to conclude the address 3 of the units brought me to mush be correct. In the analogy the correct solution would be to compare the address at the location to the one I wanted to go to, but that would be evidence and it was suggested not to seek evidence.
LeonardDeNoblac said:
This is grounded on the assumption that, once people know the truth, everyone (or at least the majority ) accepts it.
Bad news: intellectual honesty is rare even among learned people, how much do you expect it to be among the average population?
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It depends on whether we’re talking about actual intellectual dishonesty or the “they don’t agree with me so they’re being intellectually dishonest”. Not sure how you measure that.
 
Dan123 said:
So then fundamentally the question becomes “is faith a reliable source for finding truth?”

If it was I’d expect less diversity in religious beliefs around the world.
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The Golden Rule - is the Kernal…
 
EndTimes said:
The Golden Rule - is the Kernal…
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Yes, and various forms of it appear many places in the world. But that doesn’t speak to whether it has a divine source, or if we simply observe it in ourselves and some attribute it to the divine. Regardless while poetic that doesn’t really answer whether following faith is a reliable path to truth.
 
Dan123 said:
But that doesn’t speak to whether it has a divine source,
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Best RULE for Humans to follow - for a Happy… Joyful… “World” … Yes?

It implies a Source… as it evidences Universality… RE: Behavior / Morality…

Just Obey it Dan, and we may stand together before our King - one fine Day… 🙂
 
Beryllos said:
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Bill_B_NY:
That’s evolution. It proposes human beings as the result of blind, mindless, natural forces. That’s the evolutionary story.
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That is your understanding and your opinion. Mine is that natural forces were created by God, and while natural forces are not mind, they serve God’s purpose and reveal to us something of the mind of God.

In my opinion, evolution is God’s second greatest material invention (material meaning of our world). It brought order from disorder. Amazing!

Not that you asked, but God’s greatest material invention, again in my opinion, was the emergence of life, living matter, from inanimate earth, water, and wind. Even with all our proud science, we can’t replicate that, but God accomplished it with those wonderful natural forces.
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God,didn’t need to use evolution, he can make anything pop into existence.Example: the wine from water , and loaves and fish.
 
@Techno2000, it’s great to see you here! I was thinking about you and Buffalo and others, and how we argued in those never-ending Darwinism threads. But I’m done arguing now.
 
Techno2000 said:
How many “Selection pressures” do you suppose it took to for evolution to create the 10 million different plant and animal species we have today ?
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Ultimately just one, ‘survival’. At different places and times different traits might be more beneficial for survival of course.
 
Dan123 said:
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Techno2000:
How many “Selection pressures” do you suppose it took to for evolution to create the 10 million different plant and animal species we have today ?
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Ultimately just one, ‘survival’. At different places and times different traits might be more beneficial for survival of course.
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Vague…
 
Is it? It’s practically tautological. “The creatures with traits giving them a survival advantage will be more likely to survive.” As for what’s needed for survival changing, that’s readily observed any time there’s a natural disaster, or humans build a dam or what have you that changes the ecosystem of an area. Those poorly suited to the change leave or die. Those who are suited for it or who adapt thrive.
 
As an aside directly connected w/the OP

Relativism and skepticism are logical suicide?

Yes. It’s self-evident once one knows their tenets. …

It grows on me the simplicity of that Q… .
 
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