Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thread closed.
Do not attempt to start another one.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

I’ll re-open this thread.
But I will be watching it closly.
Any uncharitable behavior will be reprimanded.

 

[tonyfish58]

I’ll re-open this thread.
But I will be watching it closly.
Any uncharitable behavior will be reprimanded.

Thank you!

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

I guess we may all have to look at it in this way! To be Fair and Just I offer the following observations.

As we are Baha’is on a Catholic Forum we must thank you very much for having us here.

It has to be considered that the message given by Baha’u’llah is very confronting or a great challenge to any person of any previous Faith. Thus, this in its own right will bring about frank discussion.

I could safely say we are here to let it be known that there is an alternate view on the interpretation of Scripture. If this alternate view is correct, then it would mean that previous interpretation has indeed been Clouds to clear vision. It would mean that yes we did get it wrong! This is no big surprise, look at History and we do this often!

If we can discuss these subjects without any ill intent, then I personally would be happy to do so! I would look forward to it in fact

God Bless

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

What is common among all people is the desire for God, even those who are not aware of it. There is an immense longing in the human spirit that can only be satisfied by God alone.

It is when you make statements such as “Religion is one” that people begin to have doubts. We know that religion is not one at all. We have so many different religions and beliefs that we can say objectively “Religion is not one”. While the desire of the human heart originates from the same Source and while unity of belief is a noble pursuit, it is far from a reality and the trend is heading in the opposite direction. Everyday we have new faith traditions springing up which conflict with those before it. So while “one religion” may be a goal, it is not a reality and will not be a reality until Christ returns.

Thank you for the Frank Observation on the current status of Religion, when you said “when you make statements such as “Religion is one” that people begin to have doubts”.

If you were to judge religion on its followers then that is the only conclusion one could draw, I would have to agree!

If we look at it with the eyes of the Religions Prophet, then there could be a lot more discussion had on this subject, what actually divides the Religions? Is it the Word of God or is it how the people take the Word of God?

Life & Death, The Day of God, Judgement Day, The Return etc are all steeped in meaning and have held people far from God for many thousands of years.

If God is One, then it is up to us to consider how this is so, given what we do with His Revealed Word!

Regards Tony

 

[PRmerger]

Well if this is what is going to happen to you when you are raised from the dead, then you cease to be human, dont you? Human is body AND spirit isn’t it?

Humans who are alive on earth are indeed body and spirit.

Humans who are in heaven are spirit, until the 2nd coming.

 

[Servant19]

Humans who are alive on earth are indeed body and spirit.

Humans who are in heaven are spirit, until the 2nd coming.

So are we still humans as a spirit in heaven?

And how long does the Christian fella who has been waiting as a spirit for 1900 years got to wait? How much more patient does he have to be?

 

[flameburns623]

Hi folks:

I contacted mods last night to see if the Baha’i Faith was an off-limits topic generally. I was unaware of any uncharitable conversation: as I told Mr. Hilbert, it’s hard to stay interested in these very large, long generic threads where two or three topics might be competing.

I indicated to Mr. Hilbert that there questions touched on in a meandering monster-thread like this which would be better covered in smaller, more-focused threads. I didn’t want to start any threads if the Baha’i Faith were off-limits.

I had a hard time believing that would be the case, given that the LDS and Islamic faiths get debated ad infinitum and sometimes likewise get uncharitable. But–I asked.

Dunno if that made the difference but–woke up to find the thread restored. Thanks to Eric Hilbert and the CAF staff!

So now–my advice to Baha’i’s and to those who want to engage the members of the Baha’i Faith: start some more-focused, single-topic threads, rather than relying on hugemongous thread where you take on all ‘comers’. It might help a bit.

 

[PRmerger]

So are we still humans as a spirit in heaven?

Sure. We’re not angels. We’re not plants. We’re not doggies.

We are humans as a spirit in heaven.

And how long does the Christian fella who has been waiting as a spirit for 1900 years got to wait? How much more patient does he have to be?

What a peculiar question.

The (Catholic) Christian fella in heaven has to wait as a spirit for as long as it takes for the end of the world to come.

 

[flameburns623]

So are we still humans as a spirit in heaven?

And how long does the Christian fella who has been waiting as a spirit for 1900 years got to wait? How much more patient does he have to be?

Yes we are human SPIRITS.

No, the human being is not complete until it is united with it’s imperishable physical body.

Meaning that–because we live in PERISHABLE human bodies NOW–there is some part of us NOW which is not ‘fully human’. God’s Spirit within us is continually making us more into the image of Christ, more like the Perfect Man.

The Church and Her sacrament facilitate that–though we hope that any genuine spiritual pilgrimage is used by God to some degree to make human persons more as He would have them to be, more fully human because they grow more like His Son. Even if they do not accept Jesus explicitly as Lord and Savior.

And Heaven is not a ‘place’ properly speaking and it does not have “time” properly speaking.

Philosophically, your question doesn’t really make sense. It’s like speaking about a circular square or asking if an omnipotent deity can make a rock so heavy the deity could not lift it. It contains within it fallacious assumptions.

 

[tonyfish58]

Hi folks:

I contacted mods last night to see if the Baha’i Faith was an off-limits topic generally. I was unaware of any uncharitable conversation: as I told Mr. Hilbert, it’s hard to stay interested in these very large, long generic threads where two or three topics might be competing.

I indicated to Mr. Hilbert that there questions touched on in a meandering monster-thread like this which would be better covered in smaller, more-focused threads. I didn’t want to start any threads if the Baha’i Faith were off-limits.

I had a hard time believing that would be the case, given that the LDS and Islamic faiths get debated ad infinitum and sometimes likewise get uncharitable. But–I asked.

Dunno if that made the difference but–woke up to find the thread restored. Thanks to Eric Hilbert and the CAF staff!

So now–my advice to Baha’i’s and to those who want to engage the members of the Baha’i Faith: start some more-focused, single-topic threads, rather than relying on hugemongous thread where you take on all ‘comers’. It might help a bit.

flameburns623 - Thank you for the intervention! You have offered good advice. May we all approach these topics in search of understanding & knowledge!

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Sure. We’re not angels. We’re not plants. We’re not doggies.

We are humans as a spirit in heaven.

What a peculiar question.

The (Catholic) Christian fella in heaven has to wait as a spirit for as long as it takes for the end of the world to come.

PRmerger - I offered some comments above which takes in this subject, it is a valid question as No one Knows the Day or the Hour is also one of the sayings that is applicable to what has been posted as follows;

"Life & Death, The Day of God, Judgement Day, The Return etc are all steeped in meaning and have held people far from God for many thousands of years.

If God is One, then it is up to us to consider how this is so, given what we do with His Revealed Word"!

There is explanations on how we got it all wrong and that the deception is so great that even the greatest Lovers of Christ and of God will not see through those clouds! These are the Clouds that Christ arrived upon!

As it has been said Baha’u’llah’s Message is a great challenge, but when viewed in the light of Justice and Fairness, doors open and clouds dissipate!

I would be happy to talk about this, would you like a specific thread started?

Regards Tony

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger - I offered some comments above which takes in this subject, it is a valid question as No one Knows the Day or the Hour is also one of the sayings that is applicable to what has been posted as follows;

This does not make sense, tony.

You are saying it is a valid question to ask, “How long will a spirit in heaven be without a body?” While also professing, “No one knows!”

Does this not seem to be nonsensical to you?

 

[tonyfish58]

This does not make sense, tony.

You are saying it is a valid question to ask, “How long will a spirit in heaven be without a body?” While also professing, “No one knows!”

Does this not seem to be nonsensical to you?

What I am saying is that we understand all this topic via alternate meaning. No one would know when Christ Returned except a chosen few. As we beleive it has happened, you can see how that it could change your current thoughts on the subject.

When we die we will not come back. We are a Spirit connected to this body, the body will die the Spirit will not. How we accept Gods Prophets and religions gives us the True Life, Life that can not be overtaken by Death.

So we can live this Life already Dead, or we can live this life with Gods love and Death will not overtake us. It is a large topic with many writings to meditate upon!

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

When did Christainity start to teach falsehood according to bahai understanding.

I would have some statements from the church fathers in the second century considered before bahai respond.

Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)

To the Ephesians Introduction : Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.

Chapter 7 For some are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom you must flee as you would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom you must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible— even Jesus Christ our Lord.

Chapter 18 Let my spirit be counted as nothing for the sake of the cross, which is a stumbling-block 1 Corinthians 1:18 to those that do not believe, but to us salvation and life eternal. “Where is the wise man? Where the disputer?” 1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the boasting of those who are styled prudent? For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost. He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.

Should you desire more from Ignatius’s other letters that can be readily given or read for yourselves.

Polycarp Epistle to the PHillipians

Chapter 12

For I trust that you are well versed in the Sacred Scriptures, and that nothing is hid from you; but to me this privilege is not yet granted. It is declared then in these Scriptures, “Be angry, and sin not,” and, “Let not the sun go down upon your wrath.” Ephesians 4:26 Happy is he who remembers this, which I believe to be the case with you. But may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ Himself, who is the Son of God, and our everlasting High Priest, build you up in faith and truth, and in all meekness, gentleness, patience, long-suffering, forbearance, and purity; and may He bestow on you a lot and portion among His saints, and on us with you, and on all that are under heaven, who shall believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, and in His Father, who “raised Him from the dead.” Galatians 1:1 Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings, 1 Timothy 2:2 and potentates, and princes, and for those that persecute and hate you, Matthew 5:44 and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest to all, and that you may be perfect in Him.

Chapter 13

Both you and Ignatius wrote to me, that if any one went [from this] into Syria, he should carry your letter with him; which request I will attend to if I find a fitting opportunity, either personally, or through some other acting for me, that your desire may be fulfilled. The Epistles of Ignatius written by him to us, and all the rest [of his Epistles] which we have by us, we have sent to you, as you requested. They are subjoined to this Epistle, and by them you may be greatly profited; for they treat of faith and patience, and all things that tend to edification in our Lord. Any more certain information you may have obtained respecting both Ignatius himself, and those that were with him, have the goodness to make known to us.

Melito of Sardis (190)

On Pascha Verse 96

He who hung the earth is hanging. He who fixed the heavens in place has been fixed in place. He who laid the foundations of the universe has been laid on a tree. The Master has been profaned.God has been murdered. The King of Israel has been destroyed by an Israelite right hand.

Verse 102

It is I, says Christ, I am he who destroys death and triumphs over the enemy, and crushes hades, and binds the strong man, and bears humanity off to heavenly heights. It is I, says the Christ.

Verse 105

This is the Aplha and the Omega, this is the begining and the end, the ineffable beggining and incomprehensible end. This is the Christ, this is the King, this is Jesus, this is the commander, this is he who sits at the right hand of the father, he beares the father and is borne by him. To Him be glory and power forever, Amen.

That is a small selection of quotations which can be given and should more be asked to give a universal picture within the church of Christ being called God, honoured as God, honoured in a manner bahai could never honour him in, such examples should be given. But what are bahai to make of this, if it is the case that the church fell into corruption and the worst of all blasphemies (according to the quran) immediately after. This is a question I have asked before of bahai, how are you garunteed any more protection than the fledgling church?

 

[daler]

Humans who are alive on earth are indeed body and spirit.

Humans who are in heaven are spirit, until the 2nd coming.

. I just checked out “The Believing Brain” by Michael Shermer, from the local library. It is a very good neutral source on the scientific study of how and why we have our various “beliefs”. From what I’ve read so far, he states that we have a “need” to believe, and that without some set of beliefs, any beliefs, there is a void in us.
. We generally First believe, then find the facts to back up our beliefs and support our beliefs and have a bias towards those beliefs despite solid and obvious evidence to the contrary, when confronted with the facts. Very interesting read.

He quotes Upton Sinclair: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends upon not understanding it.”

 

[daler]

When did Christainity start to teach falsehood according to bahai understanding.

. People of all religious backgrounds have been handed their “beliefs” and tend to stay with them out of loyalty. This falls under the “Sunk Cost Bias”

. In “The Believing Brain”, by Michael Shermer, he quotes: Leo Tolstoy, one of the deepest thinkers on the human condition in the history of literature, made this observation on the power of deeply held and complexly entwined beliefs:

. “I know that most men, including those at ease with the problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

. People of all religious backgrounds have been handed their “beliefs” and tend to stay with them out of loyalty. This falls under the “Sunk Cost Bias”

. In “The Believing Brain”, by Michael Shermer, he quotes: Leo Tolstoy, one of the deepest thinkers on the human condition in the history of literature, made this observation on the power of deeply held and complexly entwined beliefs:

. “I know that most men, including those at ease with the problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

My question remains unanswered.

 

[daler]

Humans who are alive on earth are indeed body and spirit.

Humans who are in heaven are spirit, until the 2nd coming.

If we examine the words of Christ: “Let the dead bury their dead”.

Those to whom He was referring were alive in body, but dead in spirit.
They had eyes, but saw not. Had ears, but heard not.

If, on the one hand, we assume that just because we have bodies, we are alive, then this would make no sense, by itself.
So to be truly “alive” is not guaranteed by having a physical body.
The converse might be inferred that to be physically dead does not mean that the soul is not alive.
Therefore, “Today thou shalt be with Me in Paradise” (despite the death of the man’s body) can infer that “Life” is not of the body, but the spirit.

To assume the life of the soul is dependent upon a physical body composed of the elements of the earth limits the power of God, in my opinion, to former human understanding and the worldview of several thousand years ago.

I still go on living even if my arm is severed. I just don’t have use of that arm.
And if my legs are amputated, I’m still “here”, though I cannot move my body around on feet which I no longer have.

So what happens when my entire body is killed, or removed? Where am I?

Physical eyes cannot see “me” because the physical me has returned to the dust.
Physical ears cannot hear “me”, because my physical vocal cords are now gone.

The “soul” therefore, is not the assemblage of molecules we commonly associate with our “selves”, which is the natural body.
The “soul” does not weigh 8 pounds at birth, then fifty, or a hundred, two hundred. That is a measurement of the body.

To assume that the souls must again return to earth and assume physical elemental bodies changes the function of the earth. To limit “heaven” to depend upon physical elements for energy and existence seems to deny God’s capacity to design reality other than that with which we are currently familiar.

A new paradigm is needed in our thinking, one which does not limit God to our former conceptions and reduce His power to our wants.

 

[daler]

My question remains unanswered.

Ignatian,
. I think that rather than framing the question such that people taught falsehoods, we might consider that people taught according to the understandings they had at the time, based upon the information available to them to form conclusions and issue dogma accordingly.

. All of this is revised when new information is introduced if it is reviewed without bias and conditioned by presupposed assumptions based solely upon traditions.

“Authority bias”: the tendency to value the opinions of an authority, especially in the evaluation of something we know little about.

“Bandwagon effect”: the tendency to hold beliefs that other people in your social group hold because of the social reinforcement provided.

“Herd bias”: the tendency to adopt the beliefs and follow the behaviors of the majority of the members in a group in order to avoid conflict.

“In group bias”: the tendency for people to value the beliefs and attitudes of those whom they perceive to be fellow members of their group, and to discount the beliefs and attitudes of those whom they perceive to be members of a different group.

. As we are all human, we all tend to exhibit human behaviors, including these and other bias behaviors which, if we are aware of them, we can reexamine our beliefs in light of the knowledge of why we tend to believe in the first place, as well as what.

. Otherwise, if we just “happen” to be Buddhist, or Muslim, or Jewish, then we may tend to believe that the bias we hold is justifiable simply because the ancients held such beliefs, of whatever position.