Republican Primary

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I don’t care what Ron Paul does, I just want the catholic supporters of Ron Paul to do something effective to stop Obama’s assault on the CAtholic church and religious liberty come election time - i.e. vote for the GOP candidate.

Ishii
Oh sure, another 2000-2006 years of GOP control will fix everything. :rolleyes:

I will not vote for Obama but I want my vote to count for something meaningful if I even vote at all. Ron Paul has done great work so far and has brought a lot to public awareness even if he hasn’t served as President. A vote for a token candidate will only send a wrong message.

And I’m done with this thread. I can discuss candidates but I really dislike talking party politics.
 
Oh sure, another 2000-2006 years of GOP control will fix everything. :rolleyes:
ad hominem.
I will not vote for Obama but I want my vote to count for something meaningful if I even vote at all. Ron Paul has done great work so far and has brought a lot to public awareness even if he hasn’t served as President. A vote for a token candidate will only send a wrong message.

And I’m done with this thread. I can discuss candidates but I really dislike talking party politics.
So just so I understand you, you’re saying that if the election is between Obama and supporting his assault on the Catholic church and voting for a candidate who will stop the assault on the catholic church (i.e. reverse the HHS mandate, repeal Obamacare, etc) you will not choose either? You will not take a stand because your guy, Ron Paul lost?

Ishii
 
Fair point. However, in the case of Ron Paul, it isn’t about “my guy” but a particular and consistent ideology which the Republican Party seems to disdain. But for the fact that Ron Paul runs as a Republican now, they wouldn’t give his ideology a second look. I don’t even know why he gave up his House seat and puts himself in those worthless debates.
Ron Paul QUIT the Republican party at one point, although the person who drew his ire, Ronald Reagan actually had a very similar viewpoint on government spending. I think Ron Paul has a strong following and certainly deserves to be recognized at the Convention. He is not going to be the nominee however. But still he keeps his philosophy front and center by continuing to run and good for him. I am sure he will gain a spot on the Cabinet or some other post. Heck let him audit the Fed. I’m all for that.

I guess I was reacting to hearing from so many that if X isn’t nominated I’m staying home. Great give Obama another four years to finish the job and ruin the United States. I’ve held my nose and voted for the lesser of two evils and I hope people consider the results if they are not willing to consider voting for the Republican nominee no matter who he is.

Lisa
 
Ron Paul QUIT the Republican party at one point, although the person who drew his ire, Ronald Reagan actually had a very similar viewpoint on government spending. I think Ron Paul has a strong following and certainly deserves to be recognized at the Convention. He is not going to be the nominee however. But still he keeps his philosophy front and center by continuing to run and good for him. I am sure he will gain a spot on the Cabinet or some other post. Heck let him audit the Fed. I’m all for that.

I guess I was reacting to hearing from so many that if X isn’t nominated I’m staying home. Great give Obama another four years to finish the job and ruin the United States. I’ve held my nose and voted for the lesser of two evils and I hope people consider the results if they are not willing to consider voting for the Republican nominee no matter who he is.

Lisa
“If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals—if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.” - Ronald Reagan
 
I’ve read JFK’s speech, and I don’t see where Archbishop Chaput’s assessment is wrong…certainly not “idiotic.”
I didn’t say the Bishop’s statement on JFK’s speech was idiotic, but it was wrong.

Jim
 
Ron Paul QUIT the Republican party at one point, although the person who drew his ire, Ronald Reagan actually had a very similar viewpoint on government spending. I think Ron Paul has a strong following and certainly deserves to be recognized at the Convention. He is not going to be the nominee however. But still he keeps his philosophy front and center by continuing to run and good for him. I am sure he will gain a spot on the Cabinet or some other post. Heck let him audit the Fed. I’m all for that.

I guess I was reacting to hearing from so many that if X isn’t nominated I’m staying home. Great give Obama another four years to finish the job and ruin the United States. I’ve held my nose and voted for the lesser of two evils and I hope people consider the results if they are not willing to consider voting for the Republican nominee no matter who he is.

Lisa
This business of holding our noses and voting for the lesser of two evils will lead us nowhere good.
 
“If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals—if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.” - Ronald Reagan
You have one half of the equation but the other essential half is the social conservatism and that is where libertarians lose many of their potential supporters. I could never support a candidate whose platform was legalized drugs, porn, prostitution and abortion. Conservatism’s social focus, if implemented in everyday lives would REDUCE the need for government interference and government programs/support.

The problem with Libertarianism is the freedoms they hold dear have a high social cost that is in direct opposition to their desire for limited government. Rewarding and supporting traditional values produces a much less ‘expensive’ society with families being the “Department of Health Education and Welfare” instead of the government

Lisa
 
If you keep on pushing the lesser of two evils, you eventually get the evil you use to oppose.
Bumper sticker statement and taking the phrase literally not figuratively. Voting for the lesser of “two evils” does not mean that both are inherently evil. It is simply a well known/well used phrase to describe what one does in a dilemma where neither choice is optimal.

So I’d love to hear an example of this theory. Here is my take: I did not support John McCain during the primaries. He was next to last on my list. However in comparing him to Obama I felt that clearly there was no question that he would have been a vastly better President. The evils foisted upon us by Obama are legion. Do you truly think that in voting for McCain we unleashed evil? How about blaming the people who voted it in?

I voted for George Bush. He wasn’t my choice either but he was IMO clearly better than Kerry or worse, Gore. Do you think in voting for Bush I have created evil in some way?

IOW the perfect candidate does not exist or maybe only in the minds of some who live their lives looking for the missing tile. Good luck with that.

Lisa
 
You have one half of the equation but the other essential half is the social conservatism and that is where libertarians lose many of their potential supporters. I could never support a candidate whose platform was legalized drugs, porn, prostitution and abortion. Conservatism’s social focus, if implemented in everyday lives would REDUCE the need for government interference and government programs/support.

The problem with Libertarianism is the freedoms they hold dear have a high social cost that is in direct opposition to their desire for limited government. Rewarding and supporting traditional values produces a much less ‘expensive’ society with families being the “Department of Health Education and Welfare” instead of the government

Lisa
I beg to differ. The “War on Drugs” has been an epic failure. It is the very definition of epic failure. And in places were prostitution is decriminalized seem much less child trafficing, sex slavery, STDs, etc… You can’t keep playing moral police for people and there not be a backlash. You think our society would have learned its lesson during Prohobition. 🤷
 
I beg to differ. The “War on Drugs” has been an epic failure. It is the very definition of epic failure. And in places were prostitution is decriminalized seem much less child trafficing, sex slavery, STDs, etc… You can’t keep playing moral police for people and there not be a backlash. You think our society would have learned its lesson during Prohobition. 🤷
Actually you are not correct. Again theories that sound logical but are not well supported. Please provide your version of success in the war on drugs? Complete resolution of drug addiction? Crime? Not going to happen. Look at all of the misery resulting from LEGAL drugs and alcohol? Drugs are not a moral problem, they are a health problem. If we legalize drugs we’ll have more usage…how’s that going to benefit society?

And where is prostitution decriminalized other than the Bunny Ranch? Would you like America to be like the Netherlands with “needle parks” and prostitutions plying their wares in picture windows? How’s that working out for addiction, AIDS and other STDs. Sex slavery? Where’s that common? In America where prostitution, not to mention sex slavery is illegal or in places like Southeast Asia? How’s the rate of sex slavery in Thailand vis a vis Indiana?

The Libertarian social outlook is their Achilles Heel. Until they shed their support of depravity, debauchery and destruction of human life they will never get mainline voters.

Lisa
 
I didn’t say the Bishop’s statement on JFK’s speech was idiotic, but it was wrong.

Jim
Well, we disagree. What did Santorum say that was different than Archbishop Chaput? I didn’t hear the interview or read the transcript. What did Santorum say that was “idiotic?”
 
Actually you are not correct. Again theories that sound logical but are not well supported. Please provide your version of success in the war on drugs? Complete resolution of drug addiction? Crime? Not going to happen. Look at all of the misery resulting from LEGAL drugs and alcohol? Drugs are not a moral problem, they are a health problem. If we legalize drugs we’ll have more usage…how’s that going to benefit society?

And where is prostitution decriminalized other than the Bunny Ranch? Would you like America to be like the Netherlands with “needle parks” and prostitutions plying their wares in picture windows? How’s that working out for addiction, AIDS and other STDs. Sex slavery? Where’s that common? In America where prostitution, not to mention sex slavery is illegal or in places like Southeast Asia? How’s the rate of sex slavery in Thailand vis a vis Indiana?

The Libertarian social outlook is their Achilles Heel. Until they shed their support of depravity, debauchery and destruction of human life they will never get mainline voters.

Lisa
Please stop confusing libertinism with libertarianism. They are not the same.

catholicity.com/commentary/woods/00330.html
 
Well, we disagree. What did Santorum say that was different than Archbishop Chaput? I didn’t hear the interview or read the transcript. What did Santorum say that was “idiotic?”
Santorum said that JFK’s statement made him want to throw-up.

Jim
 
Santorum said that JFK’s statement made him want to throw-up.

Jim
Okay. 🤷

I guess that doesn’t rise to the level of disqualifying someone from the presidency. That said, I don’t idolize JFK the way some people do.
 
Bumper sticker statement and taking the phrase literally not figuratively. Voting for the lesser of “two evils” does not mean that both are inherently evil. It is simply a well known/well used phrase to describe what one does in a dilemma where neither choice is optimal.

So I’d love to hear an example of this theory. Here is my take: I did not support John McCain during the primaries. He was next to last on my list. However in comparing him to Obama I felt that clearly there was no question that he would have been a vastly better President. The evils foisted upon us by Obama are legion. Do you truly think that in voting for McCain we unleashed evil? How about blaming the people who voted it in?

I voted for George Bush. He wasn’t my choice either but he was IMO clearly better than Kerry or worse, Gore. Do you think in voting for Bush I have created evil in some way?

IOW the perfect candidate does not exist or maybe only in the minds of some who live their lives looking for the missing tile. Good luck with that.

Lisa
Talk about bumper stickers…

Can’t argue with someone who believes this country is getting more conservative though…
 
Okay. 🤷

I guess that doesn’t rise to the level of disqualifying someone from the presidency. That said, I don’t idolize JFK the way some people do.
Well for most Americans, the idea that a candidate would get ill over JFK’s statement about the seperation of church and state being absolute, would disqualify him.

Jim
 
Please stop confusing libertinism with libertarianism. They are not the same.

catholicity.com/commentary/woods/00330.html
Please look at your party platform. Pro drug legalization. Pro prostitution legalization. Pro pornography. Pro abortion. They don’t say anything about gluttony though. Or promiscuity. Or the focus on sensual pleasures So I don’t think Libertarians and libertines are the same thing. Both words are derived from “Liber” meaning liberty. The issue is liberty to do what and at what cost to society? If I eat myself into an early grave or enjoy sexual pleasures with a consenting adult I am not harming society. Libertarians however support activities that come with a very high societal cost…something they never seem to address.

Libertarians cannot ignore their party’s outspoken support for what most of us believe is devient behavior. I have a hard time believing that most Americans support legalized drugs, prostitutes, pornography access, and abortion as a “choice.” Most Americans realize that lifting all restrictions on such behavior will come at a very high price to our society.

Now I am in full agreement with the small government approach but the irony is that the ignorance of societal costs of the other half of their platform makes that impossible. I cannot accept Libertarianism as a serious party because it’s so internally inconsistent.

Lisa
 
Well for most Americans, the idea that a candidate would get ill over JFK’s statement about the seperation of church and state being absolute, would disqualify him.

Jim
Oh, I see. I didn’t realize you speak for “most Americans.” :rolleyes:
 
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