Resurrection? Why?

[Lapell]

*My best friend’s husband is the founder of the two most well known pro life movements in the states. I am fully aware of the pro-life’s views and even agree that abortion is mostly used as birth control and in my opinion, both subjectively and objectively, this is not wise. AT the same time, it does not negate that there ARE cases where the choice is made for reasons outside of simple “not wanting a baby” and I would feel the fool to not consider those in order to lump them all into one big “sinful” group.

Not everything is black and white and most know this subjectively, but they fail to think of it objectively… to consider another person’s view point. Let’s not forget the mother is also a life… and a life that is aware of attachments… meaning having more invested into life… it may sound cruel to you, but that is only because you have not considered what it is I am saying; pro-lifers generally have their one hardcore stance and give little consideration to the colors in between the black and white. *

Well, you prefer to believe just the looks… It’s your choice, though I believe you should get better informed before judging us “generally”…

 

[Lapell]

And why the last question, Lapell?*

Are you afraid to answer it, simplynoone?

 

[simplynoone]

Also, beware of the teachers whom you receive propositions of (or is it “for”?) Biblical interpretation! Of course Christian pastors would probably seek for an interpretation as much authentic as possible most of the times… (although even some of them will in some cases come out with things that would seem foul ball, I am sorry to have to say this…)

*Is it okay that I am taught by the mouth of God (which my speculation is that understanding comes through the testimonies of the prophets Amos 3:7)? Proverbs 2:1-7 Even before I knew the promise and the conditions of the promise were there in that passage, I had already taken hold of the promise and was being taught… then came that confirmation. Jeremiah 17:5 <------ To trust in man has only proved to be a dangerous thing. *

Lapell:–And what makes you believe we do “disregard” the works of God’s hands, hey?

*One example? that you believe Jesus was born of a virgin… it disregards the command God established… male and female, be fruitful and multiply. *

Lapell: — Yeah, actually Israel is God’s son… through God the Son, Jesus the Messiah, just like we Catholics and other Christians are. If we are sons of God, let’s act as His true sons would and should, O.K.?

True (underlined parts, that is), but the Torah says what will happen to disobedient children who disregard their parents… they are to be stoned. This is allegorical language to say that many are living in darkness and unaware of God’s ways. Instead, most have either made up their own gods or they have accepted someone else’s made up god. They have chosen ignorance over Truth and God has given them over to it. All consequences incurred are the works of our own hands. shrugs… that is what the foundation that the NT claims to be based on says anyway. *

 

[simplynoone]

I can understand why you think that. My point (which you confirm) is that you no longer sacrifice according to one aspect of the Law (and rightly so).

*First, thank you for acknowledging what I said.

And true, that sacrifices are not in effect… and this is fine because sacrifices were symbollic and they do not actually stand for forgiveness. Sacrifices were about understanding, not atonement in and of themselves… that a man would be sacrificed for sins of mankind in the way Jesus was, well… that is not found anywhere in the Tanakh. *

As you know we believe the man Jesus was also divine. So, we believe God made the sacrifice for us. He provide the sacrifice for us, similair to what he did for Abraham and Issac. But the sacrifice is not the end. He also saved the first born son from death, and His blessings flow through the life of the son.

*I am not wholly disagreeing with you, but I am thinking on a different level. Exodus 4:22,23; Hosea 11:1; Isaiah 49:3 <— where the Truth is declared… the counsel of God that Isaiah said WILL stand.

Less mystical/mythological… rather, Truth according to Amos 3:7. *

We believe that God’s revelation continued to where God actually has appeared to us face to face, instead of in a cloud. And that His law was brought to us by himself, the new Moses. We also believe God made himself son of David, so he is literally King of heaven and earth.

 

[simplynoone]

You asked me to elaborate on what I said, that Abraham was known for his hospitality, and that it should not be surprising to find him show hospitality to the poor Lazarus in the parable. What is there to elaborate on? Because we do misvoth on earth you think you would be dispensed from doing them in the world to come?

*The “world to come” is not going to ever come at the rate we are going. Jeremiah 4:10; 2:17,18,19 “Then said I, Ah, Lord God! Surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace, whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. (the word of the LORD, saying,) Hast thou not procured this unto theyself, in that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, when he led thee by the way? And now what hast thou to do in the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Sihor? or what hast thou to do in the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river? Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: Know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts.”

That fear is not a fear of punishment… that is the awesome fear of God that is spoken of in the allegorical tale of Job. And at the end, when God teaches Job that His established ways are from the foundation of the earth, He reveals something to Job that is Truth. Job 40:14. So, that the world to come is either heaven or hell and unless people start turning BACK to God and not continuing to idolize man as though he could be God, the help that so many are waiting for will not come… because even if it did, no one would recognize it because they disregard the ways of God. *

If you really love God with your whole heart, your whole soul and your whole strength, how will it be a burden for you in the afterlife?

There is either Life or death. Afterlife does not equal another life… it equals death. I am alive now. By the way, understanding <---- that is what Jesus added to the above that you just said… You can not love God unless you understand His ways and so, few do… actually love Him, that is.

Are you afraid of getting bored?

I am not really familiar with what boredom is I am often TOO curious! Just seems like a lot of people are given that so many are anxious for the day of being whisked away from here. shrugs

Also, what do you think is the point of this story if there is no afterlife?

*That is for God to know. It even says so more than several times plus a few more… it says it in the Tanakh… that His work from the beginning to the end is the secret of the LORD. I take it to mean that the purpose for the whole of it is not for us to know… only that we are to learn about His ways and observe His commands while we have the breath in our lungs. *

 

[M0nkey]

What do you hope to achieve, then? It seems futile to me to learn the word of God without supernatural hope.

 

[simplynoone]

What do you hope to achieve, then? It seems futile to me to learn the word of God without supernatural hope.

*Psalm 146:5
Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

Proverbs 10:28
The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.

For me, it is not about eternal life or escape of God’s judgment.

I put my hope in the LORD and the reward is… well, it is best summarized in Psalm 19 really… to be brought to Life while I am alive… to learn the ways of God… that might seem futile to you, but to me, it is Life:

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. *

 

[Lapell]

“Also, what do you think is the point of this story if there is no afterlife?” -Lapell

That is for God to know. It even says so more than several times plus a few more… it says it in the Tanakh… that His work from the beginning to the end is the secret of the LORD. I take it to mean that the purpose for the whole of it is not for us to know… only that we are to learn about His ways and observe His commands while we have the breath in our lungs.

Well, that story was not told to God, but to the people, not just a few of them, but to every soul who would either read it or hear it. So you are uninterested in it even this story was meant for just everyone, not just some people! You would not want to know what the point of that story, and yet you’ve got the nerve to tell me that it can’t be about afterlife!!

 

[Lapell]

For one who claims to have found the truth, it’s a rather strange way to show it!..

 

[Lapell]

Is it okay that I am taught by the mouth of God (which my speculation is that understanding comes through the testimonies of the prophets Amos 3:7)? Proverbs 2:1-7 Even before I knew the promise and the conditions of the promise were there in that passage, I had already taken hold of the promise and was being taught… then came that confirmation. Jeremiah 17:5 <------ To trust in man has only proved to be a dangerous thing.

Then how can you trust the Prophets of the Old Testament? They were also men, weren’t they? Trusting them should be as dangerous then, should it not?

 

[Lapell]

And I suppose you can’t the people who have consistently shown you love and consideration, can you? They are humans, so they can’t be trusted then, can’t they?

 

[Lapell]

And sometimes love and consideration are shown in ways that at first don’t look so pleasing and positive, are they not?

 

[M0nkey]

*I put my hope in the LORD and the reward is… well, it is best summarized in Psalm 19 really… to be brought to Life while I am alive… to learn the ways of God… that might seem futile to you, but to me, it is Life:

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. *

So the purpose is for God to make you happy in this life? Then you die and take nothing to the grave, so it seems very futile. Again, what goal do you wish to achieve? Because this is really sounding a lot like the prosperity gospel.

 

[ryanoneil]

• First, thank you for acknowledging what I said. *

Your welcome!

*I am not wholly disagreeing with you, but I am thinking on a different level. Exodus 4:22,23; Hosea 11:1; Isaiah 49:3 <— where the Truth is declared… the counsel of God that Isaiah said WILL stand.

Less mystical/mythological… rather, Truth according to Amos 3:7. *

I don’t disagree with you at all. By His covenant, God took the “creatures” He made and raised them to the status of divine offspring, divine children. Moses was the mediator and his role was the judge and liberator of Israel. The conditions of the covenant was that they must keep God’s Law and commandments. The covenant sign was the Passover.

Israel was spared by the blood of an unblemished sacrificial lamb painted on their door posts. The lamb died instead of the first-born, and was sacrificed so that the people could live. The first-born sons and daughters of God were “ransomed” or “redeemed”, and bought out of captivity and slavery. Later on Mt Sanai Israel swore to keep the covenant and Moses took the blood from the animals sacrificed and sprinkles it on the people, calling it “the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you” (Exodus 24:8). The blood was a symbol of family relations.

So I absolutely agree with you God had referred to Israel as His first-born son, but in the covenant with David, God says David’s heir will be “son of God.” In other words, sonship is given to an individual.

Via His Chosen People… not Him coming down as an actual man. He gave His Law/ judgments/ statutes/ ways to Israel and we are able to learn them through the Word of God… that would be the Tanakh and not actually Jesus since He died (which, is natural for him not to return from the grave physically according to the Word of God) and therefore he is not actually the one who is able to tell you anything. We can see in his teachings though that he DID confirm where we can learn about God and the name was not Paul, but Moses and the prophets. And it is truth.

I know Israel has a special place in God’s family and they are His chosen people. They are His pride and joy, and they were called out of Egypt to show the other nations the way to live as His children. But they are not His only people. Israel is His first-born, but not His only son. God is the God of all the nations - and He revealed He would be a father to all the other nations, in the covenant with Abraham.

In effect, the covenant with David was enacted to fulfill the covenant God made with Abraham. Together, the king and the nation of Israel, shared the covenant call to be the source of blessing to all nations, to be the instrument by which God’s divine truth and righteousness would be established on all the earth. The covenant with David changed the character of God’s covenant people from a nation state to that of an international kingdom, a worldwide empire. It was not only political and temporal, but spiritual and eternal. And all nations receive the blessing and adoption as God’s children.

After the Davidic Kingdom fractured the prophets declared that God promised that He would raise up a Son of David and restore the Davidic Kingdom. We believe this was fulfilled with Jesus. Jesus is the “new David” and His Church is the restored kingdom promised to David. He is also the “new Moses” and mediator of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31.

*And true, that sacrifices are not in effect… and this is fine because sacrifices were symbollic and they do not actually stand for forgiveness. Sacrifices were about understanding, not atonement in and of themselves… that a man would be sacrificed for sins of mankind in the way Jesus was, well… that is not found anywhere in the Tanakh. *

I agree animal sacrifices were required to teach the people a lesson and to purge them of their worship of false idols, but it is a tricky thing. Some sacrifice was definately associated with atonement. The Sin Offering (Lev 4:1-5:13; 6:24-30). The Guilt Offering (see Lev 5:14-6:7; 7:1-10). The Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur (Num 29:7-11; Lev 23:26-32).

Of course there is the peace offering and grain offerings, and all the other celebrations: Feast of Boots, Pentecost, and Passover. All these feasts are fulfilled in the life and sacrifice of Christ. As I said earlier, the Son of God is an individual in addition to the people of God. So when we read Isaiah, for example, we can say it is true of the people, but even more true of the expected heir of David.

God would send a “servant,” who would offer his life for the people (Isa 42:1-4; 49:1-6; 50:4-9) And the servant was compared to a sacrificial lamb upon whom God “laid…the guilt” of all the people. Crushed for the sins of the people, pierced for their offenses, he “gives his life as an offering for sin” (Isa 53:1-11).

There is also the notion of people freely handing themselves over in obedience to God’s law and to make atonement for the sins of the nation in (2 Maccabees 6:12-7:40).

 

[Cluny]

I am a HUGE fan of the Law of God and I must admit that I see very little of it is regarded in Catholism.

I see very little of the Law of God in pop-evangelicalism or anywhere else except in the Pre-Reformation Apostolic Churches: Catholicism, Orthodoxy, et al.

 

[simplynoone]

How is Israel be the One that described in the bold words? I don’t see any action done by Israel that come close to those words.

*Well, I know I personally have come to know the ways of Gods through Israel. They took the brunt of the punishments… being the ones that God chastised. Through their chastisement, we have knowledge. *

1. That we are doing service to God just to get the reward of happy eternal life after? And you consider that eternal life is too long that you’ll be bored having no reasons of purpose for a time frame?

My point with the boredom was already explained. And honestly,would still seek after God to serve Him knowing that when you die, you would cease to exist? The general attitude that seems to come from most is that God is here for us. The whole duty of man is summed up in Fear God and Keep His commandments.

I supposed the spirit needs the body as much as the body should made alive by the spirit, but the spirit is not bound to any decay.I usually observe that the term “now” is sometimes incomprehensible, since “now” is always floating, that I consider eternal is “everlasting now”.

*Ecclesiastes is very clear that the Living know they will die. It is clear that when we die, we return to the dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it to us for life. Death is not life. *

Having said that, I always think that when I’m in love with someone or something, I would want to live forever. That’s what I feel about Jesus.

I know how you feel. I feel that way about God. The more I get to know of Him (which admittedly … well, God is infinite in knowledge… I am finite), the more it causes me to seek even more. Every moment becomes VERY important in that regard! This is Life and this is where I know I have the opportunity to seek Him and find Him. Also it is important to me to help others and hopefully inspire some kind of real change in what I will leave behind. There is not knowledge in the grave and there is not that opportunity that we were blessed with to seek Him and serve Him once we are dead… this life is what we have.

3.If all the spirits go back to God, wouldn’t He rejected the filthy spirit that didn’t do any good when they belong to any body on earth?

The spirit is the breath of life… what we do with it is up to us… once we return to the dust, it goes back to God… I assume those who used it for evil intent, well, their spirit still goes back to God. I think where you are misunderstanding what I am saying is that you see God as a form… an image and that our spirit will be in His presence. I do not. We are IN His presence NOW. John 4:24… read what Jesus says.

The atheist think that we’re Christian or any other religions wouldn’t do any service to God if there weren’t any reward, that we’re wasting time on earth because we’re looking forward to something at the end. Wooow…the Christians at least pray that we wish the Kingdom of Heaven be on earth as on Heaven. We’re told to compete in doing good as long as we’re alive. So what about those evil spirited people, would they just rest in peace as dust after life? Or are we going to hear that evil is necessary to balance good?

*Are you saying that an atheist is evil? I do not necessarily think so.

And truly, have you read Isaiah? Isaiah said that God created both good and evil; darkness and light. I do not suppose that it would exist if there was not a purpose for it to exist, no? *

1. You seem to suggesting people to just celebrate life without no responsibility as
   letting teenager to actively involve in their sexual drive in no marriage bond, so they may not be be feeling guilty or ashamed when they find out that they’re pregnant?

I am not sure how you arrived to this conclusion, but it is the wrong perception of my view, I assure you.

And Christian are the ones that fail to make a just society? Aren’t you making too much a judgement over this?

• Really, that is the reason that MOST young women end up HAVING the abortions in the first place, because christianity is willing to judge them and/or send them away to some generic center, but few are actually willing to step in and help (and yes… I do help others out in personal ways such as this… how could I not? I have gone through tough times and I considered; and I have made it a point to not judge people the way most do, but to truly be there for those who may not be perfect, but still need a personal helping hand). Those who claim they are burdened for those babies could be more compassionate toward the mothers by taking them into their own homes and treating them like your daughters to help and support them… When they are left with your judgments on their laps, they are still faced with their hurt, shame, lonliness… etc.

And yes, I am judging, but I am not judging unfairly for it is the Truth. Do not oppress the fatherless, the widow, the poor and the needy… isn’t that part of what the foundation the NT is attached to says?*

 

[RobbyS]

seraphime2008;5249567:

How is Israel be the One that described in the bold words? I don’t see any action done by Israel that come close to those words.

*Well, I know I personally have come to know the ways of Gods through Israel. They took the brunt of the punishments… being the ones that God chastised. Through their chastisement, we have knowledge. *

1. That we are doing service to God just to get the reward of happy eternal life after? And you consider that eternal life is too long that you’ll be bored having no reasons of purpose for a time frame?

My point with the boredom was already explained. And honestly,would still seek after God to serve Him knowing that when you die, you would cease to exist? The general attitude that seems to come from most is that God is here for us. The whole duty of man is summed up in Fear God and Keep His commandments.

I supposed the spirit needs the body as much as the body should made alive by the spirit, but the spirit is not bound to any decay.I usually observe that the term “now” is sometimes incomprehensible, since “now” is always floating, that I consider eternal is “everlasting now”.

*Ecclesiastes is very clear that the Living know they will die. It is clear that when we die, we return to the dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it to us for life. Death is not life. *

Having said that, I always think that when I’m in love with someone or something, I would want to live forever. That’s what I feel about Jesus.

I know how you feel. I feel that way about God. The more I get to know of Him (which admittedly … well, God is infinite in knowledge… I am finite), the more it causes me to seek even more. Every moment becomes VERY important in that regard! This is Life and this is where I know I have the opportunity to seek Him and find Him. Also it is important to me to help others and hopefully inspire some kind of real change in what I will leave behind. There is not knowledge in the grave and there is not that opportunity that we were blessed with to seek Him and serve Him once we are dead… this life is what we have.

3.If all the spirits go back to God, wouldn’t He rejected the filthy spirit that didn’t do any good when they belong to any body on earth?

The spirit is the breath of life… what we do with it is up to us… once we return to the dust, it goes back to God… I assume those who used it for evil intent, well, their spirit still goes back to God. I think where you are misunderstanding what I am saying is that you see God as a form… an image and that our spirit will be in His presence. I do not. We are IN His presence NOW. John 4:24… read what Jesus says.

The atheist think that we’re Christian or any other religions wouldn’t do any service to God if there weren’t any reward, that we’re wasting time on earth because we’re looking forward to something at the end. Wooow…the Christians at least pray that we wish the Kingdom of Heaven be on earth as on Heaven. We’re told to compete in doing good as long as we’re alive. So what about those evil spirited people, would they just rest in peace as dust after life? Or are we going to hear that evil is necessary to balance good?

*Are you saying that an atheist is evil? I do not necessarily think so.

And truly, have you read Isaiah? Isaiah said that God created both good and evil; darkness and light. I do not suppose that it would exist if there was not a purpose for it to exist, no? *

1. You seem to suggesting people to just celebrate life without no responsibility as
   letting teenager to actively involve in their sexual drive in no marriage bond, so they may not be be feeling guilty or ashamed when they find out that they’re pregnant?

I am not sure how you arrived to this conclusion, but it is the wrong perception of my view, I assure you.

And Christian are the ones that fail to make a just society? Aren’t you making too much a judgement over this?

• Really, that is the reason that MOST young women end up HAVING the abortions in the first place, because christianity is willing to judge them and/or send them away to some generic center, but few are actually willing to step in and help (and yes… I do help others out in personal ways such as this… how could I not? I have gone through tough times and I considered; and I have made it a point to not judge people the way most do, but to truly be there for those who may not be perfect, but still need a personal helping hand). Those who claim they are burdened for those babies could be more compassionate toward the mothers by taking them into their own homes and treating them like your daughters to help and support them… When they are left with your judgments on their laps, they are still faced with their hurt, shame, lonliness… etc.

And yes, I am judging, but I am not judging unfairly for it is the Truth. Do not oppress the fatherless, the widow, the poor and the needy… isn’t that part of what the foundation the NT is attached to says?*

As for the causes of abortions, they are like the causes of all sin: alienation from God and neighbor, not only on the part of the woman but all those around her, putting the knife in her hand so to speak and urging her to strike the neck of her child.

 

[simplynoone]

But you are judging, in fact, we all have to decide at some level. Prudential judgment does not equate to condemnation. For example, when you choose to support abortion, are you not condemning those babies who do not even get a chance to see the light of day? Doesn’t it seem cruel to say no to the most fundamental right which is the right to life? I do not say that women who have abortions are “sinful” for we all are. What I am saying is that you are already judging and you have to whether you think it or not.

*I agree with that last statement… that is why I consider to make sure that my judgments are fair (though admittedly I get it wrong at times, but He does not fail to chastise me in some way to show me how I was wrong).

But, abortion was brought up here as a commandment that the church follows. I can only assume that meant the speaking out about it. I have seen how it is spoken out against those girls and in MOST (not all) cases it is horrible. If so many want those babies to be saved, they would be taking those girls into their homes and REALLY helping them out in a personal and caring way. Pregnancy is not a blessing when you are left alone to deal with all it entails and then on top of that, so many will make judgments with EITHER choice you make. That is a frightening reality that a lot of girls are faced with that are met on these sidewalks by moralists who don’t consider enough to think of their approach and what TRULY helping out is. Not to mention, there ARE women who DO have the right and the obligation to protect their own life.*

I believe these so called “pressures” have nothing to do with creed. Many of these mommies are more likely to be influenced by boyfriends, husbands, fathers, etc., so it’s not entirely a freedom of choice. Not to mention, when there is another being growing inside your womb, I’m certain that you know.

Well, the whole point initially was that some think pointing out other people’s sins and faults constitutes observing the commandments… and it doesn’t. I am not opposed to those who truly have a burden for those babies AND their mothers and give them their opinion, but if you are going to give your opinion, the caring and helping hand should be there as well.

It wasn’t clear from what you wrote, but, I’m sure the sacrifices you’ve made have paid off. Children are a gift from God, and women have the best part since they cooperate with God’s creative hand of bringing new life. This is extremely beautiful and powerful and I do appreciate this great gift women posses.

I do concur with this you have said.

 

[simplynoone]

Are you afraid to answer it, simplynoone?

No, I just found the question to be oddly placed is all.

Well, that story was not told to God, but to the people, not just a few of them, but to every soul who would either read it or hear it. So you are uninterested in it even this story was meant for just everyone, not just some people! You would not want to know what the point of that story, and yet you’ve got the nerve to tell me that it can’t be about afterlife!!

For one who claims to have found the truth, it’s a rather strange way to show it!..

*The whole duty of man is summed up and I never saw anything about life after life. It talks about coming to life, but clearly in context it is speaking of awareness that we are in the presence of God now.

I never said I had the whole of Truth… just that I know I am on the right path in finding the Truth. That to me is what makes Life so fascinating… the seeking! And He rewards and it is the rewards that let me know I am on the right path. *

And I suppose you can’t the people who have consistently shown you love and consideration, can you? They are humans, so they can’t be trusted then, can’t they?

I trust fully only those I have known for a good long while (but that doesn’t mean I agree with everything they say). There is trusting in wisdom and then there are those who blindly believe.

 

[seraphime2008]

simplynoone;:

Well, I know I personally have come to know the ways of Gods through Israel. They took the brunt of the punishments… being the ones that God chastised. Through their chastisement, we have knowledge.

Hm, this is my personal thought considering your claim: you believe that God only works through natural way (as if He couldn’t get beyond those law that he creates, you make God a god of your own understanding, aka your own thought without considering the possibility of God’s mightiness above the universe and the natural law He established. The Jews themselves asked so many sign that they would accept Jesus was the messiah, they’d been shown so many miracles, but they same as you’re now, still have a heart of stone, blind their eyes and only wanting to believe whatever they want to believe), the punishment and chastise of Israel were just a just situation for having the knowledge of divinity but fail to perform again and again, all the OT is only witness to their stubbornness, only God cannot take back His words aka His covenant through Israel. And to see the reality now, I don’t ever think that the Jews were considering other human being worth saving if it’s against their own interest. Sorry to say this, but that’s what I see. When I looked back at the history, there’s so many things had happened to the world that the world have become relatively a better place to live, but whether the Jews believing that it’s their call to be part of it, I really need some convincing proof.

Ecclesiastes is very clear that the Living know they will die. It is clear that when we die, we return to the dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it to us for life. Death is not life.

This is the part that is somehow leads me to ponder, why need look up at this verse of the OT if it doesn’t address anything that’s not beyond something eyes can’t observe. And let’s see what the OT tells us: God created man as His own image, they created them initially to live an everlasting live as He is. It’s the sin that they fell into that made them doesn’t deserve eternity. But He had intended them to eternity.

There is not knowledge in the grave and there is not that opportunity that we were blessed with to seek Him and serve Him once we are dead… this life is what we have.

I feel sorry for your belief, seem is that you actually want to serve Him
after life but you’re lacking faith in believing or lacking the knowledge of physical proof to be able to understand and believe the concept of heaven. For what I learn, even MANY MANY other religious people have sort of experiencing the Other World if you know what I mean. Anyway, as Jesus said “so be it as you believe”, you’ll end up in dust then.

I am saying is that you see God as a form… an image and that our spirit will be in His presence. I do not. We are IN His presence NOW. John 4:24… read what Jesus says.

From what I collect from you it seems God is a pool of spirits…woohooooo. Where is the will, mind and thought? . Or it seems you’re interpreting God as the energy only. Those new age somehow describe it that way. The energy that even bow to your own interest.

Are you saying that an atheist is evil? I do not necessarily think so.

And truly, have you read Isaiah? Isaiah said that God created both good and evil; darkness and light. I do not suppose that it would exist if there was not a purpose for it to exist, no?

Did I ever say that an atheist is evil. Not even crossing my mind. But for not believing a supreme Creator, that’s another way of self pride, in an enormous way. But I don’t generate people.
If you mean that God wants some of us to be a victims and others be the offender, wellll…I suppose how unjust God that you have known. The fall of men from Eden was not a purpose of God. Which verse if you don’t mind that Isaiah refer to as God created evil? From what I know, evil is a product of wanting to be against God’s will. So He didn’t first hand create it. Are you now in delusion can’t comprehend the works of satan in this world?

I am not sure how you arrived to this conclusion, but it is the wrong perception of my view, I assure you

well, I only make conclusion because you seemed to conclude yourself that Christians have teaching that will effectively make them mockers of sinners. Christians are only living a value of having children in family so that they would have solid supports, but if eventually people were failing to perform so, the Christians are not supposed to make them feel as losers. Where in Christian value that we have to condemn them, let them feel unworthy? If what you find they somehow implicitly become mockers, it’s just case base. If you see the Christian teachings, they just want us to achieve the perfect condition, we are all supposed to strive for perfection, for the sake of our own happiness but failing doesn’t make us losers, we just have to stand up again and walk the true path. As for the young women you mention, feeling lonely, shame and etc I supposed those feeling were not imposed by the Christians, case base, but from their own guilt of violating their own conscience.