Rioting aftermath in Kenosha

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RidgeSprinter said:
Do you have the same right to return the same Lethal Force in your own defense?
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No.

In fact there are cases of people defending themselves against police who did not identify themselves, and ended up in prison.

One example:

www.vox.com

Cops do 20,000 no-knock raids a year. Civilians often pay the price when they go wrong.

Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology, culture, science, the climate crisis, money...
www.vox.com www.vox.com

 
billsherman said:
In fact there are cases of people defending themselves against police who did not identify themselves, and ended up in prison.
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Yes. I’ve read of such cases. Including nightmare stories of cops getting the wrong address, going to the house next door, etc. People die and nothing happens. This happens to all races.
 
StudentMI said:
It’s strange, as well, how people can’t see how it affects everyone and not just ‘them’.
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It’s also interesting how people who are often terrified of government power, have no problem with unlimited police powers. Unless of course, those powers are turned against white collar crime. We’re living in the “Golden Age of Corporate Fraud” according to one observer, but “law & order” rhetoric doesn’t apply to that.

https://www.ft.com/content/ccb46309-bba4-4fb7-b3fa-ecb17ea0e9cf
 
billsherman said:
It’s also interesting how people who are often terrified of government power, have no problem with unlimited police powers.
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Yes! In my libertarian days few things annoyed me more than those who were suspicious of government power but had no objection to state expansion to fight wars, ‘terrorism’, political enemies, etc. I often found it pointless to try to have a discussion with them.
 
What I can not dismiss here is that these people rioting “for justice,” allegedly, while they are breaking the law itself, destroying private property, and being confrontational, as if that won’t lead to more violence.

The CCC speaks about our rights to have private property, and we should all be clear about loving our neighbors. These riots respect neither. I mean seriously, does anyone here wish rioters to destroy their own property? I don’t, and I protect my property with lead projectiles.

These riots being let to go on and on is ridiculous. I bet the same people would be angry if they called for LE from their house for a home invasion or robbery and 911 told them they’d send officers to observe.

The whole thing is ludicrous from top to bottom.

Then I heard yesterday some ridiclousness about replacing our Constitution with some UN or such type charter. If citizens allow our Constitution to be replaced, I would call it conspiracy to commit treason.

At any rate, I understand many black and other folks are upset about injustices.
I’m not happy about my property taxes, but I am not in front of the county auditor’s building throwing malatov cocktails trying to do anyone harm because I’m not happy.
These people are behaving like children having a baby fit, and they need reigned in just like a child is by their parents, except by LE, or the Guard, whatever LE agency is available to shut them down. When someone’s “free speech” starts violating other citizens rights, like by destroying property, that is where free speech stops.
It’s absurd IMO. I totally think the officers who shot that man in the back were murderous and need sentenced as such. Can’t tell me they had a lethal threat justifying lethal force to someone’s back. However, is turning into a criminal mob how we citizens are to protest? Nope. Contact government reps repeatedly, demand change, vote for those who will bring this under control and return peace into such areas.
BTW, LEO’s are peace keeping officers. In any group of humans, them included, there will be people misbehave (sexual crisis for example), but you don’t defund the police because a very small percentage make errors, are racist, or whatever. You prosecute those guilty of crimes, work to reform, and move on.
I am so disappointed with so many of my countrymen whose rights I became disabled protecting. When I was doing that, we were all green btw. 5 of 8 guys on my team were black, under their uniforms. I didn’t give a hoot about color then, and don’t now. I care about the content of one’s character.
Out
 
I think you lost the context of that reference. I was saying that using Jon’s logic, cops could shoot anyone reaching for their registration. He thought that idea was ridiculous.

The bottom line is that it’s not valid excuse to say, “There may have been a knife out of reach on the floor of his car that I was unable to see and that he may or may not have reach for. Therefore I shot him 7 times in the back.”
JonNC said:
He isn’t trying to flea, however, because he reached in. He didn’t climb in.
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He opened the door to enter and didn’t get a chance to do either. He was absolutely not reaching down to the floorboard for that alleged knife.
JonNC said:
But I will add to it. A police officer has the right to defend him/herself. That is codified. Whether or not he can use deadly force depends on the circumstances. Hence, we need to have the evidence.
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So you ARE OK with the Democrats codifying it? That’s fine. I’m just seeing zero evidence that this cop was defending himself. Speculation from you, but not evidence.
JonNC said:
Do you think that is within the specific rules?
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“Specific rules” say that cops may defend themselves. Any cop may claim to have been defending him/herself. That’s the trouble.
JonNC said:
Do you think he wrestled aware from the police because he wanted to show them his registration and proof of insurance?
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Out of context. See my reply to StudentMI. If you still can’t keep up, I’m not back-tracking to explain it again - you can read the thread.
LeafByNiggle said:
That sort of logic would justify killing any suspect at any time. Obviously not a practice we want our police to employ.
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This is what I keep trying to explain. If a cop can shoot for any reason of sensing any threat, can they shoot anyone reaching for their registration? That point got dismissed as “silly.”
 
childinthefaith said:
What I can not dismiss here is that these people rioting “for justice,” allegedly, while they are breaking the law itself, destroying private property, and being confrontational, as if that won’t lead to more violence.
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History is full of it.

History of Lynchings by non law enforcement people. All done in the name of Justice. In their minds.

Just look at the history of Abortion Clinic bombings and Abortion Clinic Doctor murders. All done in the name of Justice. In their minds.

Just to name a few examples.
 
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I dunno. As I mentioned somewhere, in this thread, or a related one, I was trained to ask specifically if the officer would like me to to reach over, open the glove compartment, and take out my registration (driver’s license, proof of insurance), if he asked me to show it to him. To preclude, you know, misunderstanding, and subsequent possible un-pleasantries. IOW, follow instructions, clarify what you are about to do in doing so. LEOs have difficult jobs, and I, personally, always want to assist them in performing it. Esp. if I’ve I’m part of it.
 
You were trained wisely. I’ve also heard that at night, you should leave the dome light on. I don’t think that people who haven’t been trained, or who are just panicked, should get the death penalty for such miscalculations. Despite some desperate spin attempts, I have seen zero evidence that the officer who shot Blake seven times was in clear, immediate, imminent, life-threatening danger.
 
Dome light, hands on wheel, in the upper quadrant (easily visible), and a pleasant and positive demeanor. Me and Chris Rock got it together. This isn’t rocket science. But failure to follow the essence of the above can easily lead to a scenario where the LEO thinks he’s in another situation altogether. And things go pear-shaped.

I have no idea why the LEO fired 7 times. No idea why the SC highway patrolman did what he did, back 6 years ago, either. Judgement in the latter case was appropriate. I await the unfolding of this one.

And rioting and looting remain rioting and looting, whatever the facts of this incident.
 
JonNC said:
The facts surrounding the situation, not imagination.
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Once the word “could” was used, the statement entered the subjunctive mood and is inclusive of factors that are no longer constrained by reality.

I get the feeling the point might be better understood in a statement like “The person had a gun. They could be planning to shoot someone with it.”
 
GKMotley said:
This isn’t rocket science.
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To you and me, no. To someone in a panic, mentally ill (most of those “welfare checks” don’t need police), or someone just downright terrified, common sense just flies out the window.
GKMotley said:
And rioting and looting remain rioting and looting, whatever the facts of this incident.
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And protesting. Don’t forget the protesters. They come during the day, stand and march peacefully, and go home . . . all in accordance with the wishes of Blake’s family. They’re not sensationalistic enough to make cheap, clickbait headlines. They’re just moms and dads, brothers and sisters, wives and girlfriends, children, all wanting a world free from excessive police violence. Peaceful Protests In Kenosha, Wis., As Demonstrators Remember Shooting Victims : NPR
 
ThinkingSapien said:
Once the word “could” was used, the statement entered the subjunctive mood and is inclusive of factors that are no longer constrained by reality.
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No. The factors surrounding the situation dictate how the “could” is viewed.
ThinkingSapien said:
I get the feeling the point might be better understood in a statement like “The person had a gun. They could be planning to shoot someone with it.”
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Only if the circumstances, such as the person’s actions, leads us to believe he might do so.

Back to the topic, if Blake has a knife in his pocket while he was peacefully responding to the police officer’s commands, the knife is innocuous. If he pulls it out of the car after resisting arrest, the view of that knife is different.
 
Mentally ill folk, or others unable to function in society, need care. Instutionalized, if necessary.

I want a world free from a lot of things. I’ll start with free from public violence, unsanctioned by legitimate authority. And that’s looking both ways.
 
billsherman said:
It’s also interesting how people who are often terrified of government power, have no problem with unlimited police powers. Unless of course, those powers are turned against white collar crime. We’re living in the “Golden Age of Corporate Fraud” according to one observer, but “law & order” rhetoric doesn’t apply to that.
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It still bothers the heck out of me that if you and I were caught robbing a bank, we’d go to the slam for ten or more years just for getting our hands on a few grand while someone like Jon Corzine can steal $1.6bn and walk away scot free because he was very connected.

The problem is that this disregard for law and order at the top flows downward through all of society. In other words, they’re setting a dang poor example. This isn’t limited to Trump, this also applies to Obama, Biden, Bush 2 and both Clintons. And many more. So that attitude migrates to eventually meet with the poor attitudes coming from the bottom up and we are caught in the middle. Between the proverbial rock and a hard place.
 
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