S.F. Catholic Church priest bans girls as altar servers

[ChemicalBean]

I must say, the data puts the lie to the myth that girl servers reduce the number of priestly vocations.
From the Quantum Theology and CARA data:
2.bp.blogspot.com/-YmIyto-AyjE/VMXAEsoMV-I/AAAAAAAAHUA/u6IinuVDubg/s1600/male%2Baltar%2Bservers.jpg

quantumtheology.blogspot.com/2015/01/urban-myths-of-catholic-church-altar.html

If Fr. Illo wants a little boy’s club for ego’s (his or the servers’) sake, he should man up and just say so. He should start a Sons of Joseph boys-only group that does leaf raking and snow shoveling before and after Mass on Sunday to be counterpart to the “Daughters”. There is no reason to punish the girls for doing a “better job”; it is all the more reason to tell his boys to man up to the task if that’s why they are “losing interest”. Taking girls out of the picture merely enables that weak attitude. staroftheseachurchsf.com/documents/2015/1/Fr_Illo_statement_on_altar_boys_Jan_26_2015-1.pdf

If Fr. Illo is troubled by the connotations of choir dress for his servers, as suggested on his blog, he could ditch surplice/cassock and go with the alb. Surplice/cassock is not appropriate for non-clerics, boys or girls.
frilloblog.com/blog/pastors-laptop-altar-boys

 

[Denise1957]

Fr. Illo responds:

frilloblog.com/blog/ef-homily-domine-non-sum-dingus
frilloblog.com/blog/pastors-laptop-altar-boys

The explanation of Fr. Illo as to his (and the Archbishop’s) decision to have boys-only altar servers is very reasonable. God bless him! He instructs, too, to not get angry at those who oppose this new policy (such as the deplorable media reporting of the issue).

 

[Megan7]

I have been to this parish a couple dozen times as I frequently travel to San Francisco. This parish is very traditional. The principal Sunday Mass is a Missa Cantata in the Extraordinary Form. This parish is the home of the San Francisco Latin Mass Society. It is also the home of a new Oratory of St. Philip Neri. They use the original High Altar, with no freestanding altar, even at their OF Masses (so all Masses are celebrated ad orientem). Just back in September this parish celebrated the first Pontifical High Mass, with Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone as celebrant, that San Francisco has seen in over 50 years. They very recently began opening the church daily until 5:30 PM for Adoration, and God willing, will be moving to 24/7/365 Perpetual Adoration within the year. Besides St. Dominic’s, Star of the Sea is the only Catholic parish in San Francisco that I know of offering scheduled confessions before every single Mass. Every OF Mass I’ve attended there included chanted propers instead of hymns, much of the Ordo is chanted by the celebrant, and the Gospel is always chanted. Given my experiences I very seriously doubt that the average parishioner at Star of the Sea minds the change.

I have no experience whatsoever with the school affiliated with Star of the Sea and so I haven’t the slightest idea how students of the school and their parents feel about this change. I also don’t know if the majority of students and their families are even parishioners at Star of the Sea. It could well be that this policy change will not affect even a slim minority of the kids there. I find it highly suspicious that the local news report wasn’t able to find a single parishioner to interview outside of the context of the school. According to the response by Fr. Illo on the church’s website certain parishioners were in fact approached by KPIX-5 for an interview, but since none were shown in the final footage I suspect such parishioners didn’t give the correct answers KPIX-5 was looking for.

Thank you for this wonderful post:thumbsup:

This sounds like an amazing, traditional parish! I am looking forward to visiting one day. I will keep this Priest & Archbishop in my prayers. I was already a fan of the Archbishop. I love that he is supportive of the Priest God Bless this Priest! I pray for more Priests just like him.

I prefer a parish with altar boys only. And I have a ton of nieces & goddaughters, etc.

But, girls can help/serve in other ways:

1. Choir,
2. Homeless ministry helping to make sandwiches, soup, meals for the needy,
3. Sorting out clothing for the homeless,
4. Helping with the distribution of meals to the homeless,
5. Visiting shelters with a group from the parish,
6. Rosary prayer group,
7. Sunday breakfast/doughnut/coffee gathering, bake sales,
8. Pro Life Ministry,
9. Youth ministry,
10. Assisting with parish classes in different languages, CCD, RCIA,
11. Helping or offering free babysitting at the parish to mothers in need,
12. Linens, flowers, etc. etc… .

Nice to read some good news, although I am sure the media wants it to be something different…

And as a female, I do not agree with “girl altar boys” The position was originally meant for Clerics. And it is supposed to foster a vocation to the Priesthood. I read of 2 other parishes on the East Coast that did something similar, and they did see an increase in vocations. I will try & find the article.

+Pax

 

[tafan]

I’m glad that’s what you would do. But that’s not the point of what I said. My sister chose to serve the Lord by serving for him at mass. Why is that so wrong?

Its not long, as long as it is allowed by the parish. But the Church universal does not require local Church’s to have girls serving, so if a parish decides not to do so, that’s the law.

 

[Tsuwano]

The Church is hierarchical. That’s how our Lord set it up.

Yes, I know. I admit that in my post. The Church is also a community. The Lord set it up that way as well.

 

[Tsuwano]

But really you could say the same thing about a priest who decided he wanted girls to be included in the altar serving rotations? He is also “imposing” his ideological position on his parish. No matter what choice he makes, he is going to be taking a side. Keep in mind that this is a parish that does not currently use children as altar servers at regular Mass. They currently have adult altar servers. (The only girls currently in the group serve only at school Masses). He is making three changes 1) adding youth altar servers to regular Masses 2) allowing children who do not attend the Catholic school an opportunity to serve at the altar and 3) making that opportunity part of a father-son program and hence including only boys.

And how do you know that the pastor is doing this without consultation? According to the spokesman quoted in the OP’s article, many of the “complaints” are coming from people not associated with the parish (aka pot stirrers) and they have gotten a lot of support for the pastor’s plan. Do you need the pastor to get 100% before he makes any decisions? No priest would ever be able to get anything done that way.

I really hope you are correct, Corki. The impression I received from the article is that there was very little consultation at all and the decision was made solely by the priest. I do not deny his legal right under canon law to make a solo decision, but I decry the hypocrisy of it in a Church which also claims to be a loving community. I am not necessarily against the priest’s decision to ban altar girls, though I do tend to think his reasons are somewhat lame and do not outweigh the service and gift the altar girls have provided the community for several years, but I do not think a person who leads as Christ led would make a decision without weighing the justice of his decision and the impact it would have on the young women in his parish. If he did weight the consequences with the members of his community during the 3 months he has been the pastor, then that is a good thing in my view and I hope the parish prospers, but if the decision was merely one of ideology, one weighing only the trivial distance between “traditional” and “progressive,” then I think the pastor should reflect more deeply on what it means to be a servant of God’s people. I still hope the parish prospers no matter who is serving at the altar.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m glad that’s what you would do. But that’s not the point of what I said. My sister chose to serve the Lord by serving for him at mass. Why is that so wrong?

It wouldn’t be wrong if one is asked. But it is my understanding that this (among other things) is the priest’s call. He may chose to have no servers if he sees no one that can fit.

 

[NeedsMercy]

From a purely mathematical point of view Altar Girls MIGHT have a negative affect on priestly numbers.

Here is why:

1. let’s assume that the average number of Sunday Masses per parish (including Saturday night) in the USA is 4.
2. let’s assume that each mass has an average number of 3 altar servers per mass
3. so that is 12 servers a weekend
4. now let’s assume that the parish has 48 kids signed up and they rotate through, serving once every 4 weeks.
5. let’s assume that the make up is 24 girls, 24 boys.
6. that’s 48 kids that the priest or group leader has to attempt to mentor. Anyone who is involved with youth ministry knows that one person cannot mentor that many children, so the mentoring pretty much goes out the window
7. what ever small group mentoring that does occur now only happens right before mass, and that’s assuming that Father isn’t hearing confessions before hand and that the servers arrive early enough for mentoring. (We know it won’t happen after mass because most priests speak with the members of the parish after mass.)
8. so the based on this example, the mentoring is down to a few mins, once a month.
9. based on this example 50% of the servers are girls, if we eliminate them then the boys in this example will serve twice a month, hence have a little more mentoring time.
10. also if you replace altar serving with another activity for the girls, they too will receive more mentoring time in the new ministry.

Finally, let’s keep in mind that we could easily have adults serve at mass and would most likely have plenty of volunteers for that.

But the reason we have children do it is an attempt to form youth discipleship and priestly vocations. True discipleship programs require small groups and mentoring. If the program at a parish isn’t creating discipleship, then why not try something new.

And I would argue that there are far better programs for girl discipleship than altar serving.

As an aside, sometimes I wonder if altar serving (boys or girls) is viewed by some parents as a why for their kids to give to the church without sacrificing more time?? I often see so many boys and girls up there looking like serving is the last thing they want to be doing. Personally, I would rather see one Altar Boy in the whole parish who is interested in being a priest, serving with adults, than having a handful of kids who don’t want to be there.

God Bless

That’s a heap of assumptions, but I take it that your bottom line here is that priests don’t talk to the young male altar servers enough about vocations. Ok, that I’ll agree with that. (But that still doesn’t mean that female altar servers reduce the number of young men applying to the priesthood) So, for a solution, why not have the counsellors talk to the boys more instead of throwing the girls out? This is baby and the bathwater stuff. Why can’t we just let the girls be able to do what they want to do if it is still within canonical parameters?

 

[NeedsMercy]

The Vatican has stated that males serving at the altar does encourage vocations to the Priesthood, why is that not enough?

Also, look at this from another point of view. We have a vocations crisis now, there are many reasons for the shortage of Priests, yet shouldn’t we do EVERYTHING within reason to help make that crisis go away? And to that end, the critical question is: Does the presence of female servers help foster vocations to the Priesthood?

The Vatican has stated that males serving at the altar does encourage vocations to the Priesthood, why is that not enough?

Not enough for what?

Also, look at this from another point of view. We have a vocations crisis now, there are many reasons for the shortage of Priests, yet shouldn’t we do EVERYTHING within reason to help make that crisis go away? And to that end, the critical question is: Does the presence of female servers help foster vocations to the Priesthood?

Yes, we should encourage young men to be priests, but not by discouraging young women from having an active part in their Church. You’ll forgive me, but yours is not the “critical question”. As I said earlier, the “critical question” is “Does the presence of female altar servers dissuade young men from the priesthood?” And the answer, given that there is absolutely no proof for the assertion, is “No”.

 

[NeedsMercy]

It’s good that you will entertain no further discussion on it because you are the only person to whom it appears Father meant women in the congregation were a distraction to alter boys.

Could you please give me the link to the results of your poll?

As for getting back to the point, it is this: Male alter servers is the norm prescribed by the Church. ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/ZLITUR19.HTM

The point: female altar servers are permitted by the Church. Another point: women are being shut out and left out of the few small spaces in the Church which they now occupy.

"The rampant liturgical experimentation after Vatican II, much of which was not sanctioned by Vatican II, stripped the Rite of the Mass of much of its careful articulation of the Sacred Mysteries that had been developed over centuries… today, many men are not being drawn to service at the altar… When I was trained to be a server, the training lasted for several weeks and you had to memorize the prayers at the foot of the altar. It was a rigorous and a carefully executed service. All of a sudden, in the wake of Vatican II, the celebration of the liturgy became very sloppy in many places. It became less attractive to young men, for it was slipshod.

"The introduction of girl servers also led many boys to abandon altar service. Young boys don’t want to do things with girls. It’s just natural. The girls were also very good at altar service. So many boys drifted away over time. I want to emphasize that the practice of having exclusively boys as altar servers has nothing to do with inequality of women in the Church.

“I think that this has contributed to a loss of priestly vocations. It requires a certain manly discipline to serve as an altar boy in service at the side of priest, and most priests have their first deep experiences of the liturgy as altar boys. If we are not training young men as altar boys, giving them an experience of serving God in the liturgy, we should not be surprised that vocations have fallen dramatically.”
Cardinal Burke: newemangelization.com/uncategorized/cardinal-raymond-leo-burke-on-the-catholic-man-crisis-and-what-to-do-about-it/

Cardinal Burke? Are you serious? Burke’s opinions—they are his opinions only, he cannot prove these allegations—show that he clearly has some fundamental psychological issues with women. His views have been discussed in other threads, and you really shouldn’t try to hijack this thread by using them. I will not discuss this subject any further here. Period.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

There seems to be a lot of “sit down and shut up” missing from us Catholics in today’s world. If I objected to my parish allowing/not allowing girls to be altar serves because I somehow thought serving at the altar was the most important thing for my son’s/daughter’s spiritual education and development I’d sit down and shut up and figure out where I went wrong in teaching my child the faith. If I objected to my parish using only the EF/OF because that form of the Mass wasn’t meeting my spiritual needs I’d sit down and shut up and figure out where I went wrong in only being able to get spiritual nourishment out of one particular form of the Mass. No wonder we don’t have young men beating down the doors of seminaries wanting to become priests. Who would want to shepherd a flock of noisy sheep all bleating “Meee, Meee, Meee, It’s all about Meee.”

 

[KSU]

Cardinal Burke? Are you serious? Burke’s opinions—they are his opinions only, he cannot prove these allegations—show that he clearly has some fundamental psychological issues with women. His views have been discussed in other threads, and you really shouldn’t try to hijack this thread by using them. I will not discuss this subject any further here. Period.

Let see, who should I believe; you, a member of the American Catholic Church who put words in Father Illo’s mouth and now shamelessly attacks Cardinal Burke, or the Cardinal himself, a pillar of the Roman Catholic Church?

Gosh, that’s a tough one!

Well, at least the Cardinal’s words which I quoted led you to promise that you will not discuss this subject any further here. Small victories.

 

[NeedsMercy]

Let see, who should I believe; you, a member of the American Catholic Church who put words in Father Illo’s mouth and now shamelessly attacks Cardinal Burke, or the Cardinal himself, a pillar of the Roman Catholic Church?

Gosh, that’s a tough one!

Well, at least the Cardinal’s words which I quoted led you to promise that you will not discuss this subject any further here. Small victories.

I did not put words in Illo’s mouth. I gave you the exact quote and the link. “Pillar of the Church”…derp.

You’ll have to forfeit your “victory”. I won’t be discussing Burke’s views on women anymore on this thread; however, I have not withdrawn from the discussion on the OP. Sorry, ksu

 

[Denise1957]

The point: female altar servers are permitted by the Church. Another point: women are being shut out and left out of the few small spaces in the Church which they now occupy.

I can’t see that women are shut out of positions in the Church. In my diocese, women do a lot of work…such as: conduct RCIA classes, choir directors, teach in the school, parish coordinators, among other things.

Exactly what are they shut out of, other than serving at the altar when the priest doesn’t allow it?

 

[NeedsMercy]

I can’t see that women are shut out of positions in the Church. In my diocese, women do a lot of work…such as: conduct RCIA classes, choir directors, teach in the school, parish coordinators, among other things.

Exactly what are they shut out of, other than serving at the altar when the priest doesn’t allow it?

Ummm, perhaps you haven’t noticed, but all priests, and all those in the Church in any position of power—temporal or spiritual—are male. I know, sometimes it’s hard to spot, so don’t feel bad if you didn’t catch it…

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Ummm, perhaps you haven’t noticed, but all priests, and all those in the Church in any position of power—temporal or spiritual—are male. I know, sometimes it’s hard to spot, so don’t feel bad if you didn’t catch it…

That’s not a very nice thing to say about all the women who put a lot of time and effort into running parishes and teaching the faith to children and other adults. “Hey even though what you do has a huge impact on parishes and the Church being able to actually do their mission to spread the faith and help people and even though you are actually helping form the spiritual growth and well being of converts and children what you do isn’t important because you don’t have any temporal or spiritual power. But hey, someone has to do the unimportant stuff.”

 

[NeedsMercy]

That’s not a very nice thing to say about all the women who put a lot of time and effort into running parishes and teaching the faith to children and other adults. “Hey even though what you do has a huge impact on parishes and the Church being able to actually do their mission to spread the faith and help people and even though you are actually helping form the spiritual growth and well being of converts and children what you do isn’t important because you don’t have any temporal or spiritual power. But hey, someone has to do the unimportant stuff.”

Someone’s been putting hallucinogens in your morning coffee. I never said that those women weren’t important and to say that I did is bearing false witness. If you can’t come up with a truthful argument, walk on by.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Someone’s been putting hallucinogens in your morning coffee. I never said that those women weren’t important and to say that I did is bearing false witness. If you can’t come up with a truthful argument, walk on by.

So the women actually running parishes (and frankly dioceses as well) and forming the core group of instructors for RCIA and catechism programs do have actual temporal and spiritual power within the Church?

 

[NeedsMercy]

So the women actually running parishes (and frankly dioceses as well) and forming the core group of instructors for RCIA and catechism programs do have actual temporal and spiritual power within the Church?

You are using the words “power” and “importance” interchangeably as if they meant the same thing. They do not.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

You are using the words “power” and “importance” interchangeably as if they meant the same thing. They do not.

So these women have no power within the Church?