S.F. Catholic Church priest bans girls as altar servers

[otjm]

I didn’t realise the Catholic church was a democracy? Just for those who think otherwise, we follow Church teaching and when the Vatican encourages parishes to facilitate boys to serve on the altar…and they do…WE DO WHAT WE’RE TOLD…PERIOD!

Perhaps in Northern Ireland the Church does not ever do anything which the Church allows, but only what it demands with no alternatives.

In the United States, when the Church allows an option, it is reviewed by the bishops and the bishops decide what they will do in their diocese.

And as an aside, Canon law does not allow girls to serve as an option; it simply allows them to serve. It emphasizes that there is a correlation between serving and a vocation to the priesthood, and statistics confirm that.

They also confirm that there is a correlation, not as strong as with priesthood, but a correlation nonetheless, between girls serving, and women professing final vows to orders of nuns and sisters.

 

[KSU]

I consider your posts in this thread to be spot on and I like your approach to argument which is charitable but refusing to give in on issues that are effecting the life blood of the Church

Thank you, friend, and right back atcha.

 

[Brendan]

I posted the current application in America above. That is the position of the Church which leaves such decision to national conferences, as per canon law. .

FYI,

The position of the Church was that the use of girls in service at the altar is specifically NOT the realm of the national conferences, but to the individual bishop. The national conference may advice, but each bishop make the policy for their diocese.

Hence the permission given in this regard by some Bishops can in no way be considered as binding on other Bishops. In fact, it is the competence of each Bishop, in his diocese, after hearing the opinion of the Episcopal Conference, to make a prudential judgment on what to do, with a view to the ordered development of liturgical life in his own diocese.

ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwcomm.htm

In addition, the bishop may only permit, but not require, the use of girls at the altar.

In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations

adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html

 

[Prodigal_40s]

Perhaps in Northern Ireland the Church does not ever do anything which the Church allows, but only what it demands with no alternatives.

In the United States, when the Church allows an option, it is reviewed by the bishops and the bishops decide what they will do in their diocese.

And as an aside, Canon law does not allow girls to serve as an option; it simply allows them to serve. It emphasizes that there is a correlation between serving and a vocation to the priesthood, and statistics confirm that.

They also confirm that there is a correlation, not as strong as with priesthood, but a correlation nonetheless, between girls serving, and women professing final vows to orders of nuns and sisters.

I think they do much the same as your hierarchy. We have the same problems as you do especially regarding engagement with the Gay rights movement which has actually rebounded on them:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29926372

Back on topic. I take your point around the women religious. However we need priests badly and this approach of male only altar service will work in our favour in the long term

 

[pnewton]

FYI,

The position of the Church was that the use of girls in service at the altar is specifically NOT the realm of the national conferences, but to the individual bishop. The national conference may advice, but each bishop make the policy for their diocese.

You might be right, sort of. By that I mean, national conferences can make decisions for the service of the altar, at least in one area. This, and the USCCB statement is where I got this idea. The CCL states

Can. 230 §1. Lay men who possess the **age and qualifications established by decree of the conference of bishops **can be admitted on a stable basis through the prescribed liturgical rite to the ministries of lector and acolyte.

In any case, almost every time the USCCB does anything, they defer to the bishops. In this case, the bishop agreed with the priest. Interestingly enough, he did not follow the USCCB *suggestion *that a uniform policy be set throughout the diocese, as is his right. After all, the SF bishop is responsible for such decisions.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

Thank you, friend, and right back atcha.

You’re very welcome brother. I’ve had a few members of the church of “nice” getting together to tell me how uncharitable I am and report me for good measure. The most insulting tact though is the one where they quote mainstream media articles to insinuate that the Holy Father backs their inane heretical nonsense up.

 

[otjm]

I think they do much the same as your hierarchy. We have the same problems as you do especially regarding engagement with the Gay rights movement which has actually rebounded on them:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29926372

Back on topic. I take your point around the women religious. However we need priests badly and this approach of male only altar service will work in our favour in the long term

I can’t speak to what you folks up there do, or for that matter, your friends and neighbors to the southwest. CARA (Center for Applied Research of the Apostolate) out of Georgetown U is a very well respected group which does research on the Church particular to the US. and one of the things they are currently researching is what cultural aspects may influence decisions concerning vocations.

And I would lay odds that the culture of Northern Ireland will have both some similarities and some differences with culture in the US.

It is easy to presume that something which we did 60 years ago would have the same effect 60 years later; certainly society has become far more secular in the last 60 years. it is also easy to presume that because there is a correlation between one activity and vocations, that the correlation is the strongest one of all activities, or the most significant one, or in the top two. In short, there really seems to be no research that answers the question; and it is far too easy to presume that if we return to a specific way of doing things, that in itself will make major changes in the number of vocations.

I am not denying a correlation, nor that is a significant one; what I am saying is that there are a whole lot of other pieces out there impacting both positively and negatively on the issue.

When the age brackets of 18 to 30 and 31 to 43 show such a tremendous drop in weekly attendance at Mass, and the overall mass attendance has gone down from 50% in 1965 to 30% now, then something is at play that opens up questions. in 1965, when there were no gilr servers, there were 994 ordinations. In 2014, 494 ordinations with a reduction of 40
% overall in weekly Mass attendance and 30+ years of alter girls. While that is a 50% reduction in vocations, those vocations are coming from the two groups which have the lowest Mass attendance.

If alter girls are so seriously impacting vocations, then the number of ordinations should be much lower. There are simply too many factors at play to say that altar girls are the cause of the reduction in vocations; it is far, far more likely that it is the abysmal attendance rate at Mass as adults which is the cause, coupled with smaller families (can we say ABC and abortion?), either no (name removed by moderator)ut or negative (name removed by moderator)ut about vocations by parents (if you only have one boy, how likely are you to encourage him to consider priesthood, when you want grandchildren?).

Materialism, secularism, a loss of strong Catholic identity (shown by the beyond miserable attendance at Mass on holy days), catechesis which pretty well fell into the toilet and only started to get cleaned up in the 90’s; the suburbanization movement which has broken up Catholic enclaves; the list goes on and on, all of which work to discourage vocations.
Cara only shows ordination numbers every 5th year, so I don’t know the low point exactly; but the lowest number shown was in 2000, with 442 ordinations; 454 in 2005; 459 in 2010 and 494 in 2014. Not as many as we need, but increasing.

 

[ProVobis]

Cara only shows ordination numbers every 5th year, so I don’t know the low point exactly; but the lowest number shown was in 2000, with 442 ordinations; 454 in 2005; 459 in 2010 and 494 in 2014. Not as many as we need, but increasing.

FWIW, there seems to be an interesting twist to those numbers. Among other things some dioceses with few Catholics/population are ordaining more per this article.

catholicworldreport.com/Item/996/called_by_name.aspx

 

[SWolf]

FWIW, there seems to be an interesting twist to those numbers. Among other things some dioceses with few Catholics/population are ordaining more per this article.

catholicworldreport.com/Item/996/called_by_name.aspx

In his article, Archbishop Curtiss cited “The Churching of America, 1776-1990,” a sociological study published by Roger Finke and Rodney Stark, which points out that the more a religious organization compromises with society and the world, blurring its identity and modifying its teaching and ethics, the more it will decline. Archbishop Curtiss writes: “Religious organizations are stronger to the degree that they impose significant costs in terms of sacrifice and even stigma upon their members…I am convinced that shortages of vocations in any part of the country can be reversed by people who share enthusiastically in the agenda of the Church. We have to learn from the dioceses and communities which are experiencing an increase in vocations.… Young people do not want to commit themselves to dioceses or communities that permit or simply ignore dissent from Church doctrine.”

There’s a shocker

 

[otjm]

I will be curious to see out of all the boy altar servers how many will be called to the priesthood in his parish at some point in their life.

Mary.

My recollection is that the parish is a fairly conservative one, so I would not be the least bit surprised if they eventually have one or more vocations from it. That should come as no surprise to anyone. And those vocations will be supported by people asking boys “Have you thought of becoming a priest?”, from focus on vocations by parents, siblings, and other relatives as well as other parishioners; from activities likely for both boys and girls which focus on discernment of vocations, and other support, encouragement and prayers. Especially prayers.

 

[otjm]

According to CARA, from questions asked of never-married Catholics, both teens and adults,12% of those questioned indicated they had coniseered becoming a priest or a brother at least a little seriously; the following ae the subgroups:

 Weekly Mass attenders (now and in high school)
 Those who attended Catholic educational institutions at any level (excluding parishbased religious education)
 Those who participated in Church-related groups, programs, or activities as a youth or
young adult
 Those who lived in households where parents talked to them about religion at least
once a week
 Those who say their faith is the most important part of their life (now and in high
school)
 Those who participate in prayer and devotional activities, groups, or programs (e.g.,
Bible study, Eucharistic adoration, retreats, or prayer groups)
 Those who pray the rosary at least weekly (alone or in a group)
 Those belonging to a group that encourages devotion to Mary
 Those who were encouraged to consider a vocation by someone else (e.g., family,
friends, clergy, religious)
 Those who regularly read the Bible or pray with Scripture
 Those who personally know priests and men and women religious (in their extended
family or outside of it)
 Those who have participated in parish ministry (e.g., Lectors, Ministers of Holy
Communion, Youth Ministers)
 Those who have participated in World Youth Day or a National Catholic Youth
Conference
 Those who have recently accessed religious and spiritual content in traditional or new
media

CARA further notes: 1
It is important to clarify here that correlation does not equal causation. For example, someone who participates in Eucharistic Adoration may be more likely to consider a vocation. But is it this participation that led to the consideration? Probably not. Instead there is likely some third factor (e.g., religiosity) that leads the individual to both participate in Eucharistic Adoration and consider a vocation.

I would submit that simply focusing on one issue - removing girls from serving - is missing the issue entirely. Again, there has been vigorous discussion; but other than bold statements with no evidence presented, that boys quit because they reach an age where they don’t want to associate with girls, there is no evidence that having girls as altar servers in any way inhibits boys from eventually considering a vocation.

 

[KSU]

CARA (Center for Applied Research of the Apostolate) out of Georgetown U is a very well respected…Can you name one non-progressive organization that agrees with that? I don’t know; I’m asking because Georetown has no credibility for orthodoxy amoung engaged, orthodox Catholics. I lived asross the river for 32 years and have followed its practices and anticks since then. Think militant homosexuals. Think Sandra Fluke, contraception advocate extraordinaire and Democrat Party’s “women’s rights” activist. I would be surprised if the powers that be at Georgetown/CARA supported the Catholic norm of all male servers. As you can see,ot, I’m fireing both barrels here; I don’t see any revelancy of the staistics to begin with–they will not change the Vatican’s position–and I don’t trust much out of Georgetown.
I am not denying a correlation, nor that it is a significant one; what I am saying is that there are a whole lot of other pieces out there impacting both positively and negatively on the issue. Who denies that? That is THE relevant issue so far as I see it, and we agree.The rest is just non-pivotal opinion and honest preference. Am I missing something?.

 

[graciew]

I ve attended 2 parishes in the last 10 years , one where I live , ( we have an altar server who became priest) and one in US tx ( there was an altar sever who became a nun).
I can t tell if they are conservative. Truthfully , I do not know the difference. Both were loving and active communities.

 

[otjm]

Originally Posted by otjm View Post
CARA (Center for Applied Research of the Apostolate) out of Georgetown U is a very well respected…Can you name one non-progressive organization that agrees with that? I don’t know; I’m asking because Georgetown has no credibility for orthodoxy among engaged, orthodox Catholics. I lived across the river for 32 years and have followed its practices and antics since then. Think militant homosexuals. Think Sandra Fluke, contraception advocate extraordinaire and Democrat Party’s “women’s rights” activist. I would be surprised if the powers that be at Georgetown/CARA supported the Catholic norm of all male servers. As you can see, ot, I’m firing both barrels here; I don’t see any relevancy of the statistics to begin with–they will not change the Vatican’s position–and I don’t trust much out of Georgetown.
I am not denying a correlation, nor that it is a significant one; what I am saying is that there are a whole lot of other pieces out there impacting both positively and negatively on the issue. Who denies that? That is THE relevant issue so far as I see it, and we agree. The rest is just non-pivotal opinion and honest preference. Am I missing something?.

I am going to start by defining orthodox Catholics as those which follow the Magisterium. I have an idea that you may wish to define it more narrowly.

Thus, I define the USCCB as orthodox Catholics. I realize there are those who do not define those bishops as orthodox, which is why I start with my definition.

The USCCB has been using CARA for a long time; in addition I have yet to see anyone challenge what they set forth in their various studies.

Rather than sit there and paint with a broad brush, do a little research. CARA is respected, and perhaps you are not aware, but the world of the Catholic Church is not identified by only progressives and conservatives; there are plenty of people who are simply in the middle, trying to follow Christ and the Church, aka the Magisterium.
Take a look at the survey they are preparing on families and vocations. Take a look at the survey they did of non-married teenagers and adults and look at the questions they asked. Quit dividing the world into two artificial categories of conservatives and progressives.

But the bottom line is that instead of tarring everyone with a single brush do some research yourself; go look at their recent survey of unmarried teenagers and adults. They are not only not playing fast and loose with the questions, but they are also using standard professional survey tabulation in their work.

I don’t care if it is someone on the conservative end or the liberal end of the spectrum; both ends have a tendency to tar and feather whole groups of people and activities with one brush; and both are guilty of lack of logic, intellectual dishonesty, simplification rather than struggling with facts, an overabundance of “don’t confuse me with facts; I already have my mind made up”, an unwillingness to see that others with whom we may not be able to fit into our own preconceived world view may have some truth too; and a strong tendency to snap judgments and simplistic answers to complex questions.

There is an old Greek phrase which translates literally “like is to like a friend”. That is common to almost everyone, but it can get in the way of critical thinking as it substitutes group thought for critical analysis. It takes work and training to be able to think critically, and look at issues from more than one point of view. It is far easier to simply buy into group think, and dismiss everything else with a label.

As to whether or not the statistics will directly change Rome’s thinking, I would suggest that Rome does listen to bishops, and the bishops of the Untied States have repeatedly used CARA to determine what is actually going on. Perhaps you think that Rome works in a totally top down fashion; Rome has the last word but it also responds to what is actually going on “in the filed” if for no other reason than that Rome doesn’t get out into the field much at all.

Rome has said it favors the correlation between altar service and vocation, but it has not said that is the only, or even necessarily the highest correlation on vocations. As I have pointed out, CARA found 80% of priests they interviewed had been altar boys. But neither Rome nor anyone else has shown that altar girls are causing a drop in vocations, and that is the presumption that underlies a good deal of this thread.

 

[hosemonkey]

Very sad to hear the exclusion of girls. So many men seem threatened by girls…I just don’t understand.

I have nine daughters and one son. We rejected the idea of altar service for our girls because it began in this country as disobedience and an abuse which thumbed the noses of the U.S. bishops at the Holy Father. This, along with a plethora of other abuses and sillyness going on in the U.S. Church, was the final straw. We did not want to contribute to the confusion. Girls and women do not need to be on the altar (nor in the military)

 

[KSU]

I have nine daughters and one son. We rejected the idea of altar service for our girls because it began in this country as disobedience and an abuse which thumbed the noses of the U.S. bishops at the Holy Father. This, along with a plethora of other abuses and sillyness going on in the U.S. Church, was the final straw. We did not want to contribute to the confusion. Girls and women do not need to be on the altar (nor in the military)

 

[KSU]

I am going to start by defining orthodox Catholics as those which follow the Magisterium. I have an idea that you may wish to define it more narrowly.

Right you are, ot. God wants our whole body, mind and soul. That is, obedience to the Magisterium with actions; not just words and appearances and studies and committee meetings, and adjusting the old rules to show how in tune we are to the new spirit of the age.

Fr. Illo and other courageous priests, Bishops and Cardinals are showing us how it’s done. It’s my opinion that they have been emboldened by the Holy Father’s suggestion to correct error by making a “mess” if necessary. In our country, that’s what it will take to root out Americanism:
“The movement propagated in the United States in the late nineteenth century which claimed that the Catholic Church should adjust its doctrines, especially in morality, to the culture of the people. Emphasizing the ‘active’ virtues of social welfare and democratic equality, it underrated the ‘passive’ virtues of humility and obedience to ecclesiastical authority. Americanism was condemned by Pope Leo XIII in an apostolic letter, Testem Benevolentiae (January 22, 1899), addressed to Cardinal Gibbons.” Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.

 

[Prodigal_40s]

I have nine daughters and one son. We rejected the idea of altar service for our girls because it began in this country as disobedience and an abuse which thumbed the noses of the U.S. bishops at the Holy Father. This, along with a plethora of other abuses and sillyness going on in the U.S. Church, was the final straw. We did not want to contribute to the confusion. Girls and women do not need to be on the altar (nor in the military)

God bless you Sir!

 

[FaustinaJulia]

I’ve been following this thread with a lot of interest although I’ve yet to speak on its issue until now. I’m really in favor of an all male altar server situation. It just makes logical sense to me. For a boy serving at the altar it is a “taste” of what may be if he became a priest, to put things in their most simplified terms. Like a child learning of the flavor of an unknown food, they cannot tell as well if they’d like it or not until that taste. So what would a girl in that scenario get a “taste” of? Since ordination is only for men, that “taste” of a vocation is nowhere near the experience it would be for a boy or the right fit for a girl.

I understand and agree that there are other factors which add to the likelihood of vocations for the priesthood or for religious life, but I think that we should not rob one of the time-honored factors to a call to the priesthood from boys who have a hard enough time with all the societal and secular opposition to a priestly vocation. We need our priests!

I live in the SouthEast and am a convert to Catholicism and one of our main issues is overworked Priests in our area. We have a amall parish and one Priest assisted by a Deacon for our church. They are true God-fearing and Magisterium following men and I love them both dearly and am truly grateful to both of them for their help in my entry into the Church, and because of this I have great concern for how overworked they both are. I have actually seen our Pastor become dizzy and have to lay down in a pew during an after-Mass rosary due to how hard he worked and fasting. His health is not the best to begin with and he’s in his sixties and many of us in the congregation worry about so much being on his shoulders. If there was just one other Priest assigned part time to our Parish it would be so much help, but there just are not enough Priests to justify that.

Finally, we do have altar girls sometimes, but usually (sometimes it can be months between times I see an altar girl serving) it’s boys and I can see the difference in how they are affected by their service. Some of the boys just seem to “glow” while they serve while the girls are nowhere near as into it although they do their actions with due reverance. Nothing against the girls who serve this way btw, nothing at all. I just do not see them getting the same grace and incentives from serving as boys do.

God Bless,
Julia

 

[Prodigal_40s]

I’ve been following this thread with a lot of interest although I’ve yet to speak on its issue until now. I’m really in favor of an all male altar server situation. It just makes logical sense to me. For a boy serving at the altar it is a “taste” of what may be if he became a priest, to put things in their most simplified terms. Like a child learning of the flavor of an unknown food, they cannot tell as well if they’d like it or not until that taste. So what would a girl in that scenario get a “taste” of? Since ordination is only for men, that “taste” of a vocation is nowhere near the experience it would be for a boy or the right fit for a girl.

I understand and agree that there are other factors which add to the likelihood of vocations for the priesthood or for religious life, but I think that we should not rob one of the time-honored factors to a call to the priesthood from boys who have a hard enough time with all the societal and secular opposition to a priestly vocation. We need our priests!

I live in the SouthEast and am a convert to Catholicism and one of our main issues is overworked Priests in our area. We have a amall parish and one Priest assisted by a Deacon for our church. They are true God-fearing and Magisterium following men and I love them both dearly and am truly grateful to both of them for their help in my entry into the Church, and because of this I have great concern for how overworked they both are. I have actually seen our Pastor become dizzy and have to lay down in a pew during an after-Mass rosary due to how hard he worked and fasting. His health is not the best to begin with and he’s in his sixties and many of us in the congregation worry about so much being on his shoulders. If there was just one other Priest assigned part time to our Parish it would be so much help, but there just are not enough Priests to justify that.

Finally, we do have altar girls sometimes, but usually (sometimes it can be months between times I see an altar girl serving) it’s boys and I can see the difference in how they are affected by their service. Some of the boys just seem to “glow” while they serve while the girls are nowhere near as into it although they do their actions with due reverance. Nothing against the girls who serve this way btw, nothing at all. I just do not see them getting the same grace and incentives from serving as boys do.

God Bless,
Julia