Sacred Traditions That Supposedly Contradict The Bible

[newbie1234]

no it isn;t.

Chartoo can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God…" [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta Ga., Bernard & Brothers publishing, 1982, pg 348]

“Chartoo…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]

"The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena ‘full of grace’, even the translators of 1611 King James Version show there approval of this in the Margin with “Much Graced” [A Look at the Greek Scriptures, 1984, New York, Garretson Cox & Company Pg. 123 ]

“Chartoo: Grace. To Grace… as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,… as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved” i.e., objects of Grace” [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc. Pg. 1471]

“Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitomene a perfect passive participle of the verb Chartoo (only here and Eph. 1:6)… Abbott- Smith defines Chartoo as follows endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Devine favor)” [Word Meaning in the New Testament, copyright 1986, printed by Henndrickson Publishing, edited by Ralph Earle Pg. 52]

“0 favored one (kecharitomene). angel’s address of Mary marks her out recipient of God’s special grace (BAG BDAG, 1081). For Luke, she is a model beneficiary of God’s grace (1:48). The: other use of this verb in the NT Ephesians 1:6. [charitoo]” [The Bible Knowledge Key Word Study, copyright 2002, printed Victor Publishing, edited by Darrell L. Bock, Pg. 180]

“…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, copyright 1992, printed by AMG International, Inc., p. 966]

"Chartoo. . . kecharitomene, full of grace, Luke, i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) "[Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, by W.J. Hickie M.A, 1945, p. 208]

“Chartoo to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6”[The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, by Wigram - Green, 1982, p. 915]

“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” [A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers, Jr. Vol. 1, Pg. 140]

“endue with grace” [A Pocket Lexicon To The Greek New Testament, by Alexander Souter M.A., 1946, P. 281]

“28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” " [The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key To The New Testament, copyright 1998, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by Cleon L. Rogers III , Pg. 108]

“Chartoo. . . to endue with grace… : Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6” [A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, by G Abbott- Smith D.D, D.C.L., 1929, p. 480]

“Chartoo: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious… Luke I:28 ‘Highly favoured’ (Marg., ‘endued with grace’)” [Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, [unabridged edition], by W. E. VINE, printed by Riverside Book and Bible House, Pg. 424]

Cut and paste?
Why would my bibles NOT use ‘full of grace’

 

[patrick457]

The bible came from God. It is His Word. It would be complete no matter who decided on it’s content.
Since the Roman empire was in power the Holy Spirit used them. A couple of hundred years earlier the Holy Spirit used the Greeks to give us the Septuagint. It is not from man. It is from God.

Of course the Scriptures are the Word of God (God-breathed as it says in Scripture).
But that does not mean the BIble has always been in the form it exists today.
It did not drop down from Heaven written in Shakesperean English with a Red Leather binding.

But, putting the question back to you, Newbie, how do YOU know that the Books of the Bible are inspired other than saying it is the Word of God?

Was it because someone in your church told you that it is?
Was it because you felt something when you read it?

Let’s say the Prophets and the Evangelists putt a notice that says ‘This Book is inspired by God’. That would do nothing since there are also many books not included in the Canon that claim to do so.

In fact, no book of the Bible explicitly claims to have been written under God’s direct command (with, perhaps, the exception of Revelation, but even that Book does say 'This Book has been inspired and thus should be included in the Bible).

A book of writings (other than the Bible) could claim to be inspired by God. Does that mean it’s speaking the truth?

And at least we have no record of a historical event of God suddenly speaking from the Heavens, ‘This particular book, The Book of so-and-so is inspired.’

So how do we know that the Books in the Bible are inspired? How do we know that they actually belong in the Bible?
How do we know that 1 Peter is inspired and actually belongs in the Bible and not The Shepherd of Hermas or the Didache?

 

[GraceDK]

Dear brother newbie.
I am happy for you that your faith has grown. Also good that you have a street ministry, read the Word for over an hour, go to church for three times a week… Hmm… I think that if you were a catholic some protestants might have put you up against the wall charging you with justification-by-works Christianity and maybe even pride: " I do this and that… am I not holy/saved/born again?" …
I was “saved into” the Catholic Church from Protestantism. before that I prayed 5 minutes max during the day, made my own laws, interpreted the Bible according to my own head and sinned. was this protestantism? No… I can blame my spritual death on my self only.
Jesus then suddenly made me fall in love with Him and believe in Him… He told me about the mysteries of faith. I had no teacher but Him… He led me into the Bible, opened Scripture to me, taught me about His Sacraments, answered my questions in a coherent whole that just grows everyday.
The Jesus who taught me and whom I fell totally in love with showed me into the Catholic faith. Since then I would be in the Church and on my knees for endless hours… how much is not of importance. The important part was that I was a flame with love for Christ. I have met brothers and sisters in different churches since that day, who have had that same love, that intense love, that does not ask how, where, what or why… it can but follow the Beloved. We all do this to our utmost capacity… The Lord lets us see according to our dying from ourselves… when we ask, He answers, when we seek, He lets us find… How great is our God!

but brother… have you studied Church history? …the real early stuff… I gotta say that when I was an evangelical I was pretty much historyless … and it continues to surprise me how the earliest of our brethen taught, lived and believed.

You say you accept the OT on the basis that it is obviously good enough for Jesus. Thats a good answer, I have my self given the same answer when it comes to the apocrypha… You do know they were in the Septuagint of Jesus’ day right?.. they are quoted hundreds of times in the NT. But Luther had the nerve to remove them… there was something in them that he did not like … but he had the authority to do that… or what? where does authority come from? everyone must ask himself and start by admitting that he was taught by someone, either him self, the fundamentalists, the RCC or someone else. No one is without tradition…
Brother, I dont mean to be harsh on you… You must look at the Church through the eyes of Jesus… I see you feel you have been let down… and you might have been… but the Word says: “the bridegrom and the bride becomes one… also so with Christ and His Church…” He has not let her down, neither in the hours of darkness… is it not right that the servant follows the Master… then the servant must also be brought to obedience through suffering according to His Word.
“God’s manyfold Wisdom can now be made known through the Church…”( Ephe 3:10)
Do you know Padre Pio?.. if not then try looking him up. I saw a movie with him the other night called “Padre Pio. Miracle Man”. Padre Pio was treated severely and unnecessarily harsh by certain clergymen from the RCC the whole of his life. In the end, according to this film a man says to padre Pio: “The Church has no need of people like you”.
A single tear flows from the eye of the old munk as he calmly replies: “I it is… I that need the Church”.
Where is the humility today? the shepherds staff has been broken into two and later into splinters. there is no love. no obedience. the division crucifies the Lord again and again. Did He not tell us the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth( 1 Tim 3:15). Did He not give the Shepherd staff to Peter? Brother, where is your Peter? Who decided the Canon to you.When did the Holy Spirit leave the Church?coz the Spirit can not tolerate lies. What happend then to the promises of Christ …?
Faith is not about feelings only, but about Truth. Mediate on the OT then if you believe in it: Howcome the Lord back then guided His covenant people and stayed with them through priests and prophets inspite of their silliness …if not He would do so even more in the new covenant. ? Its all there in the Word… you just must see it all.
But today many people have made themselves kings and popes and even gods… sitting on thrones, having sould out the blood of Christ and denied the Mother.
Certainly you are as dear to the Lord as anyone of us. But He has prepared a whole feast for you and a good brother will always urge you to satiate yourself on all of it… he loves you to much to keep silent.
Praised be the Lord forever

 

[lak611]

The ‘full of grace’ part Lk1:28 was misinterpreted in the Vulgate translation. My three bibles and concordance use ‘highly favored one.’ The term ‘full of grace’ suggests she was sinless.
There is the error. She is not sinless. She needed a savior Lk1:47

I have a KJV Ryrie Study Bible**, published by Moody Press. Charles Caldwell Ryrie, Th.D., Ph.D., of the Moody Bible Institute is as Protestant as you can get. His note on Luke 1:28 says “highly favoured** = filled with grace. The term is used in the NT elsewhere only in Eph. 1:6.”

 

[newbie1234]

Dear brother newbie.
I am happy for you that your faith has grown. Also good that you have a street ministry, read the Word for over an hour, go to church for three times a week… Hmm… I think that if you were a catholic some protestants might have put you up against the wall charging you with justification-by-works Christianity and maybe even pride: " I do this and that… am I not holy/saved/born again?" …
I was “saved into” the Catholic Church from Protestantism. before that I prayed 5 minutes max during the day, made my own laws, interpreted the Bible according to my own head and sinned. was this protestantism? No… I can blame my spritual death on my self only.
Jesus then suddenly made me fall in love with Him and believe in Him… He told me about the mysteries of faith. I had no teacher but Him… He led me into the Bible, opened Scripture to me, taught me about His Sacraments, answered my questions in a coherent whole that just grows everyday.
The Jesus who taught me and whom I fell totally in love with showed me into the Catholic faith. Since then I would be in the Church and on my knees for endless hours… how much is not of importance. The important part was that I was a flame with love for Christ. I have met brothers and sisters in different churches since that day, who have had that same love, that intense love, that does not ask how, where, what or why… it can but follow the Beloved. We all do this to our utmost capacity… The Lord lets us see according to our dying from ourselves… when we ask, He answers, when we seek, He lets us find… How great is our God!

but brother… have you studied Church history? …the real early stuff… I gotta say that when I was an evangelical I was pretty much historyless … and it continues to surprise me how the earliest of our brethen taught, lived and believed.

You say you accept the OT on the basis that it is obviously good enough for Jesus. Thats a good answer, I have my self given the same answer when it comes to the apocrypha… You do know they were in the Septuagint of Jesus’ day right?.. they are quoted hundreds of times in the NT. But Luther had the nerve to remove them… there was something in them that he did not like … but he had the authority to do that… or what? where does authority come from? everyone must ask himself and start by admitting that he was taught by someone, either him self, the fundamentalists, the RCC or someone else. No one is without tradition…
Brother, I dont mean to be harsh on you… You must look at the Church through the eyes of Jesus… I see you feel you have been let down… and you might have been… but the Word says: “the bridegrom and the bride becomes one… also so with Christ and His Church…” He has not let her down, neither in the hours of darkness… is it not right that the servant follows the Master… then the servant must also be brought to obedience through suffering according to His Word.
“God’s manyfold Wisdom can now be made known through the Church…”( Ephe 3:10)
Do you know Padre Pio?.. if not then try looking him up. I saw a movie with him the other night called “Padre Pio. Miracle Man”. Padre Pio was treated severely and unnecessarily harsh by certain clergymen from the RCC the whole of his life. In the end, according to this film a man says to padre Pio: “The Church has no need of people like you”.
A single tear flows from the eye of the old munk as he calmly replies: “I it is… I that need the Church”.
Where is the humility today? the shepherds staff has been broken into two and later into splinters. there is no love. no obedience. the division crucifies the Lord again and again. Did He not tell us the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth( 1 Tim 3:15). Did He not give the Shepherd staff to Peter? Brother, where is your Peter? Who decided the Canon to you.When did the Holy Spirit leave the Church?coz the Spirit can not tolerate lies. What happend then to the promises of Christ …?
Faith is not about feelings only, but about Truth. Mediate on the OT then if you believe in it: Howcome the Lord back then guided His covenant people and stayed with them through priests and prophets inspite of their silliness …if not He would do so even more in the new covenant. ? Its all there in the Word… you just must see it all.
But today many people have made themselves kings and popes and even gods… sitting on thrones, having sould out the blood of Christ and denied the Mother.
Certainly you are as dear to the Lord as anyone of us. But He has prepared a whole feast for you and a good brother will always urge you to satiate yourself on all of it… he loves you to much to keep silent.
Praised be the Lord forever

AWESOME post!
Until you mentioned His mother.
That is where we part company.

 

[newbie1234]

Of course the Scriptures are the Word of God (God-breathed as it says in Scripture).
But that does not mean the BIble has always been in the form it exists today.
It did not drop down from Heaven written in Shakesperean English with a Red Leather binding.

But, putting the question back to you, Newbie, how do YOU know that the Books of the Bible are inspired other than saying it is the Word of God?

Was it because someone in your church told you that it is?
Was it because you felt something when you read it?

Let’s say the Prophets and the Evangelists putt a notice that says ‘This Book is inspired by God’. That would do nothing since there are also many books not included in the Canon that claim to do so.

In fact, no book of the Bible explicitly claims to have been written under God’s direct command (with, perhaps, the exception of Revelation, but even that Book does say 'This Book has been inspired and thus should be included in the Bible).

A book of writings (other than the Bible) could claim to be inspired by God. Does that mean it’s speaking the truth?

And at least we have no record of a historical event of God suddenly speaking from the Heavens, ‘This particular book, The Book of so-and-so is inspired.’

So how do we know that the Books in the Bible are inspired? How do we know that they actually belong in the Bible?
How do we know that 1 Peter is inspired and actually belongs in the Bible and not The Shepherd of Hermas or the Didache?

I know the bible is inspired by 2tim3:16.
I can prove it is the Word of God by the fulfillment of OT prophecy.
I know the apocrypha does not belong in my bible because it is historically incorrect.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I know the bible is inspired by 2tim3:16.

That would refer to the Old Testament, how did you know which books of the New Testament were inspired? How did you know that 2 Tim 3:16 is inspiried?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Cut and paste?
Why would my bibles NOT use ‘full of grace’

Does the fact that someone may have cut and pasted the definition of a Greek word destroy credibility in your eyes?

 

[NotWorthy]

I never said Luther was infallible.
No man is infallible except Jesus.
The Jews don’t include the Apocrypha in their scriptures either.
They are not historically correct.

The Jews also rejected 27 other books. Is there batting average really good enough?

The Jews did NOT reject the Deuterocanonicals till the 1400’s. I would say the Councils of Hippo and Carthage were far closer to the fire then 15th century Jews. Is this your analysis, too?

 

[NotWorthy]

The bible came from God. It is His Word. It would be complete no matter who decided on it’s content.

Oh really?!? Then how come there are two Canons for the OT? 46 vs. 39

Since the Roman empire was in power the Holy Spirit used them. A couple of hundred years earlier the Holy Spirit used the Greeks to give us the Septuagint. It is not from man. It is from God.

And by your own reckoning, the Septuagint includes the Deutero’s.

 

[NotWorthy]

Unam Sanctum. No salvation except through the Catholic church.
Proof- The thief on the cross was with Jesus in paradise 300 years before the catholic church was even created.

So, unless Jesus is there to personally rubber-stamp your Salvation, you had better stick with rule #1.

 

[newbie1234]

Does the fact that someone may have cut and pasted the definition of a Greek word destroy credibility in your eyes?

Certain people have the habit of cutting and pasting pages upon pages of documents. Most of which I do not read.
A concise statement with biblical support is all I need.

 

[GraceDK]

“AWESOME post!
Until you mentioned His mother.
That is where we part company.”

The words were, by a large part, not my doing, but the Lord has taught me all I know. He is my life and my goal… I have no wish to convince you of anything. The Holy Spirit will lead you if you let Him, and I have no doubt that you will do that continuously, just like I have no doubt that your holiness far exedes mine.

But brother we cannot part.- We must bear.
We are crafted onto the One Tree.
It is written we have a host of saints cheering for us. Nice thought I think…
Mary is one of them. In her weakness, He became everything, so that He could later become the fullness in all those who believe in Him.
We owe her much because she was humble.
I will tell you, I had a hard time with Mary for a looong time… she was an oddity in my new Catholic faith until the day where I started asking the Lord… just calmly and simple… and meditate upon her as well of what kind of woman would she be…
Obviously the angel greets her with a “hail” - a greeting reserved for royalty. And the Holy Spirit Himself fills Elisabeth with prophetic wisdom on saying: “Blessed are you, … how can it be that I am so favoured that the mother of my Lord comes to me?”
And she so fulfills the prophesy of David as he spoke these words on receiving the Arch of the Covenant: “How can the Arch of the Lord come to me?” (2 Sam 6: 9) This arch that was gold inside and outside and which bore the Word of God on stone. The new Arch then who carries the Word-Son would be no less holy.
And do you think Jesus held less reverence for his mother than the great messianic kings of Israel? remember that He fulfilled every commandment to perfection, and so too the 12th commandment… Remember Solomo who bowed in reference to his mother and set a throne up for her next to himself. Every king following had a queen mother…

As it is written: “God is not a God of the dead but of the living”… the Word has taught you already that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and talked to Him on Tabor… What do the saints do if not pray for us.
With Jesus, the Kingdom of God came near. So are those too who have died in Him not dead but living and hearing when we tell them; just like we tell any other brother: “pray for us”. Nothing unholy can enter the Heaven as it is written, but the prayer of the just is indeed strong as it is also written. But these together and you have the most powerful intercessors in those who are more alive than you and me, because they are in full union with the Lord.

So… now you know a bit about how a Catholic convert thinks about some things… I am not very good at conveying things that are of such beauty, but bear with me. maybe you know all this from the beginning.

Brother. Tell me now more about your own Church… where is it and why do you love it?

 

[newbie1234]

Oh really?!? Then how come there are two Canons for the OT? 46 vs. 39And by your own reckoning, the Septuagint includes the Deutero’s.

The apocrypha has been proven historically false and it promotes magic which is unbiblical.
Therefore the canon with 46 OT is in error.
Something interesting to research would be the Golden Lampstand from Exodus.
Count up the bowls, knops, and flowers.
27 on each side plus twelve in the center.
27+27+12=66
27 books NT
27+12=39books OT
Check it out. Rather interesting.

 

[LilyM]

The apocrypha has been proven historically false and it promotes magic which is unbiblical.
Therefore the canon with 46 OT is in error.
Something interesting to research would be the Golden Lampstand from Exodus.
Count up the bowls, knops, and flowers.
27 on each side plus twelve in the center.
27+27+12=66
27 books NT
27+12=39books OT
Check it out. Rather interesting.

Numerology of the sort to which you seem to subscribe is bordering on superstition in itself.

As for magic - every book of the numerous books of the apocrypha endorses magic? Show me where, for each book of the Apocrypha, before you go making such an unfounded sweeping generalisation.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Certain people have the habit of cutting and pasting pages upon pages of documents. Most of which I do not read.
A concise statement with biblical support is all I need.

So you considered the definition of kecharitomene as “pages upon pages”? Did you read it?

 

[newbie1234]

“AWESOME post!
Until you mentioned His mother.
That is where we part company.”

The words were, by a large part, not my doing, but the Lord has taught me all I know. He is my life and my goal… I have no wish to convince you of anything. The Holy Spirit will lead you if you let Him, and I have no doubt that you will do that continuously, just like I have no doubt that your holiness far exedes mine.

But brother we cannot part.- We must bear.
We are crafted onto the One Tree.
It is written we have a host of saints cheering for us. Nice thought I think…
Mary is one of them. In her weakness, He became everything, so that He could later become the fullness in all those who believe in Him.
We owe her much because she was humble.
I will tell you, I had a hard time with Mary for a looong time… she was an oddity in my new Catholic faith until the day where I started asking the Lord… just calmly and simple… and meditate upon her as well of what kind of woman would she be…
Obviously the angel greets her with a “hail” - a greeting reserved for royalty. And the Holy Spirit Himself fills Elisabeth with prophetic wisdom on saying: “Blessed are you, … how can it be that I am so favoured that the mother of my Lord comes to me?”
And she so fulfills the prophesy of David as he spoke these words on receiving the Arch of the Covenant: “How can the Arch of the Lord come to me?” (2 Sam 6: 9) This arch that was gold inside and outside and which bore the Word of God on stone. The new Arch then who carries the Word-Son would be no less holy.
And do you think Jesus held less reverence for his mother than the great messianic kings of Israel? remember that He fulfilled every commandment to perfection, and so too the 12th commandment… Remember Solomo who bowed in reference to his mother and set a throne up for her next to himself. Every king following had a queen mother…

As it is written: “God is not a God of the dead but of the living”… the Word has taught you already that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and talked to Him on Tabor… What do the saints do if not pray for us.
With Jesus, the Kingdom of God came near. So are those too who have died in Him not dead but living and hearing when we tell them; just like we tell any other brother: “pray for us”. Nothing unholy can enter the Heaven as it is written, but the prayer of the just is indeed strong as it is also written. But these together and you have the most powerful intercessors in those who are more alive than you and me, because they are in full union with the Lord.

So… now you know a bit about how a Catholic convert thinks about some things… I am not very good at conveying things that are of such beauty, but bear with me. maybe you know all this from the beginning.

Brother. Tell me now more about your own Church… where is it and why do you love it?

I wouldn’t say my holiness exceeds yours. I am a sinner and my good works are but filthy rags to God Almighty.
I love my small church because I have grown there in leaps and bounds. I feel like part of the ministry. Everyone knows who I am. I am held accountable. I am encouraged. I have support. I am learning the Word by intensive study.I am being fed. My pastor is a biblical scholar filled with love for his flock.
I never felt these things when I was catholic.

 

[lak611]

Certain people have the habit of cutting and pasting pages upon pages of documents. Most of which I do not read.
A concise statement with biblical support is all I need.

Check my post #203. I gave you the reference from a PROTESTANT source.

 

[newbie1234]

Numerology of the sort to which you seem to subscribe is bordering on superstition in itself.

As for magic - every book of the numerous books of the apocrypha endorses magic? Show me where, for each book of the Apocrypha, before you go making such an unfounded sweeping generalisation.

i can’t speak for every book but Tobit6:5-7 uses a fish heart to drive away demons.magic

Tobit 4:11 states:alms deliver us from sin. Heresy

Judith1:5 states Nabuchodonosor was king of assyrians but he was actually king of babylonians. Historically inaccurate.

 

[NotWorthy]

The apocrypha has been proven historically false and it promotes magic which is unbiblical.
Therefore the canon with 46 OT is in error.

There are questionable historical facts in many OT books. When are you going to throw them out?

This would also be a good time to bring up the promotion of magic.

Why did it take everyone else another 1000 years to throw them out if they are so blatantly non-inspired?

Something interesting to research would be the Golden Lampstand from Exodus.
Count up the bowls, knops, and flowers.
27 on each side plus twelve in the center.
27+27+12=66
27 books NT
27+12=39books OT
Check it out. Rather interesting.

This is great! It makes a good bedtime story for my children.

How about this.

7 days of Creation.

You took 7 books out of the Bible.

Check it out. Rather interesting!