Sacred Traditions That Supposedly Contradict The Bible

[newbie1234]

The Jews also rejected 27 other books. Is there batting average really good enough?

The Jews did NOT reject the Deuterocanonicals till the 1400’s. I would say the Councils of Hippo and Carthage were far closer to the fire then 15th century Jews. Is this your analysis, too?

Josephus didn’t include them in his writings.He was before the councils.

 

[newbie1234]

There are questionable historical facts in many OT books. When are you going to throw them out?

This would also be a good time to bring up the promotion of magic.

Why did it take everyone else another 1000 years to throw them out if they are so blatantly non-inspired?

This is great! It makes a good bedtime story for my children.

How about this.

7 days of Creation.

You took 7 books out of the Bible.

Check it out. Rather interesting!

I am not saying anything is fact but there is quite a bit of symbolism in the Tabernacle.

 

[NotWorthy]

Josephus didn’t include them in his writings.He was before the councils.

And Your point is?

Josephus was a historian. While his writings give great context on the history of 1st century Israel, he’s certainly not representative of the Jewish Sanhedrin of the time.

 

[newbie1234]

Check my post #203. I gave you the reference from a PROTESTANT source.

My concordance says charitoo- to grace,indue with special honor, make accepted, be highly favored.
BUT to be FULL of grace implies there is no room for sin. That is where the problem lies.
In my earlier post I mentioned three bibles. I mistakenly said kjv when I should have said nkjv, NIV, and amplified. I do not have a kjv. The fact that they all use “highly favored” leads me to believe that is the accurate translation.I shy away from ‘full of grace’ because it leads to veneration of Mary. And I feel that it takes away glory that belongs to God and Him alone.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I wouldn’t say my holiness exceeds yours. I am a sinner and my good works are but filthy rags to God Almighty.
I love my small church because I have grown there in leaps and bounds. I feel like part of the ministry. Everyone knows who I am. I am held accountable. I am encouraged. I have support. I am learning the Word by intensive study.I am being fed. My pastor is a biblical scholar filled with love for his flock.
I never felt these things when I was catholic.

You shouldn’t rely on feelings too much, as they can easily be deceptive. For example, when you were Catholic you were fed with the very Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ Himself in the Eucharist. I would say that that was pretty substantial…much more so than being fed by Scripture alone.

 

[newbie1234]

You shouldn’t rely on feelings too much, as they can easily be deceptive. For example, when you were Catholic you were fed with the very Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ Himself in the Eucharist. I would say that that was pretty substantial…much more so than being fed by Scripture alone.

I never believed that the wafer became the actual 2000yr old flesh of Jesus. Or that the wine was the 2000yr old blood.

 

[NotWorthy]

I never believed that the wafer became the actual 2000yr old flesh of Jesus. Or that the wine was the 2000yr old blood.

And you are disagreeing with 1000’s of people over the period of almost 2000 years that were tortured and killed rather than admit that it was a little wafer. And again, these people were far closer to the source of all Salvation then we can ever hope to be!

I’m putting my stock in those people, thank you! I mean, I love you, Newbie, but they certainly are role models that I wish to emulate. Thank God the Catholic Church doesn’t forget her martyrs and saints!!!

 

[lak611]

My concordance says charitoo- to grace,indue with special honor, make accepted, be highly favored.
BUT to be FULL of grace implies there is no room for sin. That is where the problem lies.
In my earlier post I mentioned three bibles. I mistakenly said kjv when I should have said nkjv, NIV, and amplified. I do not have a kjv. The fact that they all use “highly favored” leads me to believe that is the accurate translation.I shy away from ‘full of grace’ because it leads to veneration of Mary. And I feel that it takes away glory that belongs to God and Him alone.

The whole point though is “highly favoured” means the same thing as “filled with grace”. The word “grace” appears in Ephesians 1:6. Here’s Luke 1:28 from the KJV. " 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Here’s Ephesians 1:6 from the KJV. “1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

I never believed that the wafer became the actual 2000yr old flesh of Jesus. Or that the wine was the 2000yr old blood.

Then you deny Jesus when he said, “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.” John 6:55-56.

 

[E.E.N.S]

My concordance says charitoo- to grace,indue with special honor, make accepted, be highly favored.
BUT to be FULL of grace implies there is no room for sin. That is where the problem lies.
In my earlier post I mentioned three bibles. I mistakenly said kjv when I should have said nkjv, NIV, and amplified. I do not have a kjv. The fact that they all use “highly favored” leads me to believe that is the accurate translation.I shy away from ‘full of grace’ because it leads to veneration of Mary. And I feel that it takes away glory that belongs to God and Him alone.

But the word is kecharitomene. It is a past, perfect particible.

Also, since Mary is a creation of God, praising her does not detract from the glory of God, but rather gives Him glory, much like when you praise the paintings of an artist it doesn’t take anything away from the artist, but rather it gives him the praise.

Remember, also in Luke it says, “all generations will call me blessed…”?

 

[E.E.N.S]

I never believed that the wafer became the actual 2000yr old flesh of Jesus. Or that the wine was the 2000yr old blood.

No wonder you left the Church then. I’m sorry.

 

[NotWorthy]

My concordance says charitoo- to grace,indue with special honor, make accepted, be highly favored.
BUT to be FULL of grace implies there is no room for sin. That is where the problem lies.
In my earlier post I mentioned three bibles. I mistakenly said kjv when I should have said nkjv, NIV, and amplified. I do not have a kjv. The fact that they all use “highly favored” leads me to believe that is the accurate translation.I shy away from ‘full of grace’ because it leads to veneration of Mary. And I feel that it takes away glory that belongs to God and Him alone.

It’s interesting though. Doesn’t Luke word Kecharitomone share the same root word as in Acts 7:55 describing Steven.

And yet Steven is filled with the Holy Spirit (NIV, NKJV), whereas Mary is “highly favored”.

I’m no expert, so I’m open to explanations.

 

[GraceDK]

“I love my small church because I have grown there in leaps and bounds. I feel like part of the ministry. Everyone knows who I am. I am held accountable. I am encouraged. I have support. I am learning the Word by intensive study.I am being fed. My pastor is a biblical scholar filled with love for his flock.
I never felt these things when I was catholic.”

I think the Catholic Church needs people like you just as your little church needs you.
I understand you better than you think. You see, I have been to many congregations… currently I am going to two Churches in my town… a Pentecostal and a Catholic. I think they called it double-dipping. I learned this word from a fellow named Jeff Cavins who wrote a book named: “I am not being fed” (hehe…looking at your post here) about how he left the Church because he felt the born-again experience that he had had was not shared…
So you and I both know the power of feelings… If it were not for the power of the Lord at a certain time in my life I might have been a pentecostal today, but now I only pray and worship with them. I had a terrible inner struggle for a long time… the Lord had taught me Catholic faith… and yet I felt so comforted in this other congregation… so upliftet with these other brothers whereas the ones closest to me were like strangers. The Lord one day said to me in a very clear way (I am not so used to this kind of His communication) well He said: “you are not in full Communion”…at this point I was exactly receiving the Host and there was no reason to explain: He could have said “love is missing” just as well… and I was shocked… He was not harsh as He spoke… He never is. In that period I was tempted… it was as if there was a fierce battle going on in my soul. I mourned at certain moments: “Lord can you not just let me go there… it feels so good there…” But the Lord with firm love said: “Do not ignore the Truth I have shown you… carry the cross with Me”… and everytime I was at the Holy Mass and I received Jesus in the Sacrament I felt shame that I had even for one moment thought of leaving. The greatness and majesty that was bestowed upon me in all my poverty in those moments… it felt as though the heaven had fallen down upon the earth… and suddenly it did not matter that the priest was boring, that there was no spontaneous praise in the assembly and that the walls were falling apart… There was just bliss in the arms of Jesus… tears in my eyes. Holy Silence. I knew I could not leave Him. Even if many things in a specific parish can disturb me… I cannot leave. And I know that what I suffer I suffer with Christ. Yes indeed, Jesus suffers for the poverty in the Church… he suffers at shepherds that are false and hearts that are cold, He suffers at traitors of His Blood.
A Catholic brother told me: “I went to a charismatic baptist church one night and the music and the atmosphere was great so I decided: I wanna be there. That is where the action is”(As though we can estimate that…) And then I can play music too because my music ministry would be welcome. He had it figured out. But suddenly as he was brushing his teath in the bathroom that night the Lord said: “Stay, and be light to your brothers”. So he stayed… he is today in a cool music ministry within the Church and more dedicated and on fire with Jesus than ever…

Are we hungry? But no human hugs and kisses can take the place of the Lord… no fellowhip in its warmth can stop the longing. We need it all… we are fragile humans… created for love and fellowship… but even more so for fellowship with Him who is fellowship in His divine Essence trice Holy. I think that you have a longing still in your heart, if you have ever understood, if you have ever become truly one with Jesus in His Body and Blood, fullness of Life, promised according to John 6: 20- If you have ever known…

So I recognize your longing… and your pain… and the longing that is in Jesus that you shall be fed both on love of the family and the living bread that has come down from heaven and whom every Christian throughout history untill Luther knew to be the Body and Blood indeed, given to suffer. I have faith for you that, whereas Jesus has seen to your soul and brought you among brothers that you may be fed on milk, He will bring you yet another step when your wounds have healed.

Katarina <><
It was good talking to you. I will have to go to bed now. Good night my dear brother. The Lord bless you <><

But who will learn if he is not taught… who will learn if no one sends someone to teach him. who will hear if no one speaks…

 

[newbie1234]

The whole point though is “highly favoured” means the same thing as “filled with grace”. The word “grace” appears in Ephesians 1:6. Here’s Luke 1:28 from the KJV. " 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Here’s Ephesians 1:6 from the KJV. “1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”

If we read Jn1:14, it says Jesus was ‘full of grace’
the word used is ‘charis’
We know undoubtaby Jesus was without sin.
I f Mary was also undoubtably without sin, why wouldn’t they use the same word ‘charis’ when describing her?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Cut and paste?
Why would my bibles NOT use ‘full of grace’

I have three Bibles.

Douy Rheims Bible says;

Luke Chapter 1 verse 26-30.

26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee:
Bible RSV-CE

"26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel waa sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth; 27 to a virgin bethrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the House of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”

Latin Vulgate

et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus (Latin, gratia is grace.

 

[lak611]

But the word is kecharitomene. It is a past, perfect particible.

From my Strong’s Concordance (which is Protestant), “Charitoo**, to endow with charis**, primarily signified ‘to make graceful or gracious,’ and came to denote, ‘to cause to find favor,’ **(1)******Lk 1:28, ‘highly favored’ (i.e., “endued with grace”)”

 

[NotWorthy]

If we read Jn1:14, it says Jesus was ‘full of grace’
the word used is ‘charis’
We know undoubtaby Jesus was without sin.
I f Mary was also undoubtably without sin, why wouldn’t they use the same word ‘charis’ when describing her?

You might want to ask Gabriel that exact question.

And if you play your cards right, you just might be able to!!

But seriously, I understand Kecharitomone says “filled with Grace from the beginning” and it implies a future or permanent state of grace. Again, one is quoting Gabriel, while the other is using his own words, though inspired by God, they are still in the author’s words.

 

[lak611]

It’s interesting though. Doesn’t Luke word Kecharitomone share the same root word as in Acts 7:55 describing Steven.

And yet Steven is filled with the Holy Spirit (NIV, NKJV), whereas Mary is “highly favored”.

I’m no expert, so I’m open to explanations.

Different word describing Stephen. That word is pleres which means complete, covered over, full. The same word for full is this case is used for full baskets, full spiritually of the Holy Spirit, full of faith, full of evil, full of a reward hereafter. “Highly favoured” though refers to grace given by God unmerited, not as a reward.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You might want to ask Gabriel that exact question.

And if you play your cards right, you just might be able to!!

But seriously, I understand Kecharitomone says “filled with Grace from the beginning” and it implies a future or permanent state of grace. Again, one is quoting Gabriel, while the other is using his own words, though inspired by God, they are still in the author’s words.

Jimmy Akin best describe as:

There are indications of it in Scripture itself, the clearest echo of the doctrine being in the Annunciation in Luke 1, where the Angel Gabriel refers to Mary with the Greek word “kecharitomene,” which is commonly translated “full of grace,” but more literally would be “one who has been graced.” This word draws on aspects of Greek grammar that indicate that Mary has, in the past, received God’s grace and that this has continuing effects at the present time.

The question is: How far back in the past was she graced and what are the specific effects? As Christians reflected on this and on the writings of the Church Fathers, it was discerned that–because of her unique role in the history of salvation–Mary was graced at the first moment of her existence (her conception) with the effect that she was prevented from contracting any stain of original sin.

Part of the conceptual background for this was the realization of Mary’s role as the New or Second Eve, something that the Church Fathers are explicit about very early. It was discerned that, just as God started humanity with a first Adam and Eve, he started redeemed humanity with a New Adam and a New Eve. Thus St. Paul refers to Jesus’ role as the New Adam, and the Church Fathers identify Mary as the New Eve. Thus, just as Eve cooperated with Adam in bringing sin to the world (by giving him the forbidden fruit), Mary cooperated with Jesus in bringing salvation to the world (by serving as his mother).

Similarly, just as both the first Adam and Eve were sinless from their conceptions, the new Adam and Eve were sinless from their conceptions. The difference is that while the first pair fell from grace, the second remained faithful.

A basis for the Immaculate Conception can thus be discerned in Mary’s role as the New Eve.

 

[newbie1234]

“I love my small church because I have grown there in leaps and bounds. I feel like part of the ministry. Everyone knows who I am. I am held accountable. I am encouraged. I have support. I am learning the Word by intensive study.I am being fed. My pastor is a biblical scholar filled with love for his flock.
I never felt these things when I was catholic.”

I think the Catholic Church needs people like you just as your little church needs you.
I understand you better than you think. You see, I have been to many congregations… currently I am going to two Churches in my town… a Pentecostal and a Catholic. I think they called it double-dipping. I learned this word from a fellow named Jeff Cavins who wrote a book named: “I am not being fed” (hehe…looking at your post here) about how he left the Church because he felt the born-again experience that he had had was not shared…
So you and I both know the power of feelings… If it were not for the power of the Lord at a certain time in my life I might have been a pentecostal today, but now I only pray and worship with them. I had a terrible inner struggle for a long time… the Lord had taught me Catholic faith… and yet I felt so comforted in this other congregation… so upliftet with these other brothers whereas the ones closest to me were like strangers. The Lord one day said to me in a very clear way (I am not so used to this kind of His communication) well He said: “you are not in full Communion”…at this point I was exactly receiving the Host and there was no reason to explain: He could have said “love is missing” just as well… and I was shocked… He was not harsh as He spoke… He never is. In that period I was tempted… it was as if there was a fierce battle going on in my soul. I mourned at certain moments: “Lord can you not just let me go there… it feels so good there…” But the Lord with firm love said: “Do not ignore the Truth I have shown you… carry the cross with Me”… and everytime I was at the Holy Mass and I received Jesus in the Sacrament I felt shame that I had even for one moment thought of leaving. The greatness and majesty that was bestowed upon me in all my poverty in those moments… it felt as though the heaven had fallen down upon the earth… and suddenly it did not matter that the priest was boring, that there was no spontaneous praise in the assembly and that the walls were falling apart… There was just bliss in the arms of Jesus… tears in my eyes. Holy Silence. I knew I could not leave Him. Even if many things in a specific parish can disturb me… I cannot leave. And I know that what I suffer I suffer with Christ. Yes indeed, Jesus suffers for the poverty in the Church… he suffers at shepherds that are false and hearts that are cold, He suffers at traitors of His Blood.
A Catholic brother told me: “I went to a charismatic baptist church one night and the music and the atmosphere was great so I decided: I wanna be there. That is where the action is”(As though we can estimate that…) And then I can play music too because my music ministry would be welcome. He had it figured out. But suddenly as he was brushing his teath in the bathroom that night the Lord said: “Stay, and be light to your brothers”. So he stayed… he is today in a cool music ministry within the Church and more dedicated and on fire with Jesus than ever…

Are we hungry? But no human hugs and kisses can take the place of the Lord… no fellowhip in its warmth can stop the longing. We need it all… we are fragile humans… created for love and fellowship… but even more so for fellowship with Him who is fellowship in His divine Essence trice Holy. I think that you have a longing still in your heart, if you have ever understood, if you have ever become truly one with Jesus in His Body and Blood, fullness of Life, promised according to John 6: 20- If you have ever known…

So I recognize your longing… and your pain… and the longing that is in Jesus that you shall be fed both on love of the family and the living bread that has come down from heaven and whom every Christian throughout history untill Luther knew to be the Body and Blood indeed, given to suffer. I have faith for you that, whereas Jesus has seen to your soul and brought you among brothers that you may be fed on milk, He will bring you yet another step when your wounds have healed.

Katarina <><
It was good talking to you. I will have to go to bed now. Good night my dear brother. The Lord bless you <><

But who will learn if he is not taught… who will learn if no one sends someone to teach him. who will hear if no one speaks…

Your posts are like beautiful poetry.
Thank you.
But I am not led back to the RCC at this time.
I am not resisting any prompting what so ever.
I do not know what the future holds, but I will say, for me to accept the teachings of the RCC, there has to be a tremendous change in either me or the RCC. And I don’t think the RCC has any plans of changing anything.