Sacred Traditions That Supposedly Contradict The Bible

[LilyM]

Could you tell me where they used them?
It might help me to know that.

There’s one real kicker:

“Then came the Feast of Dedication (Hannukah) at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade.” John 10:22-24. Jesus was in the Temple celebrating Hanukkah.

This feast is in celebration the incident in 2 Maccabees (one of the deuterocanonical books). It celebrates the miracle which occurred where the Jews, after successfully fighting off invasion from Syria and rededicating the Temple, which had been profaned, stretched one days’ worth of oil for the Temple lamps out to last eight days until they could obtain more.

 

[NotWorthy]

Could you tell me where they used them?
It might help me to know that.

Admittedly, some of these are a little obscure, but others are dead on. I’ve included roughly 20% of those referenced in ScriptureCatholic.Com.

If you want to look at these in the NAB, you can look online at nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/index.htm

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

 

[newbie1234]

There’s one real kicker:

“Then came the Feast of Dedication (Hannukah) at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade.” John 10:22-24. Jesus was in the Temple celebrating Hanukkah.

This feast is in celebration the incident in 2 Maccabees (one of the deuterocanonical books). It celebrates the miracle which occurred where the Jews, after successfully fighting off invasion from Syria and rededicating the Temple, which had been profaned, stretched one days’ worth of oil for the Temple lamps out to last eight days until they could obtain more.

Ok point taken. But why isn’t the book in the Torah?

 

[NotWorthy]

Ok point taken. But why isn’t the book in the Torah?

Uh, it wasn’t written by Moses?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Ok point taken. But why isn’t the book in the Torah?

Let me quote the following;

The next major piece of evidence to be noted is the Council of Jamnia, which seems to have taken place around 90 AD. This council established and closed the canon authoritatively for nearly all Jews. It has been their canon ever since. Yet it should be noted that the council did not speak for all Jews, there were Jews living in Ethiopia who either did not hear of it or did not accept the decision of Jamnia. To this day they use a different canon than their Palestinian brethren [Encyclopedia Judaica, Vol 6, p 1147].

My commentary:

The Council of Jamnia rejected the Septuagint (Greek Translation of the Old Testament) because it was widely used by the Christians. The Jewish leaders at the time felt threaten. In order to preserve the Jewish tradition, they only use only Hebrew Text (Mesoretic Text).

This Council is not binding to all Jews. As you can see, the Jews in Ethiopia still use the Septuagint to this day.

Further information;

What Bible does the New Testament quote? Not the Hebrew Bible, since the majority of the New Testament was composed in Greek. The Bible used for most Scripture quotations in the New Testament is the same Bible used by the Ethiopian Jews mentioned above and the same Bible used by Christians in the earliest centuries of the Church – it is named the Septuagint (or LXX). The LXX is a translation of the Old Testament into Greek that was completed no later than 180 BC.
One of the reasons that the LXX is of value is that expresses the opinions of the Jewish people in the times prior to Christ, during an age where later opinions of him could not have biased their writings or thoughts with respect to Christian issues. In some cases also, it may well reflect an earlier text than the present Hebrew.

Isaiah 7:14 became a controversial verse for Jews and Christians practically from the start – but it reflects a pre-Christian Jewish interpretation of the admittedly more vague Hebrew text. The LXX used the word virgin in its translation, and after Christians came on the scene and used this word as prophetic of the type of birth Christ it became an embarrassment to the Jews.

What this verse said about the virgin birth of the Messiah, together with the fact that the LXX was the version quoted by the authors of the New Testament, combined with its widespread use before and after the time of Christ caused many to think that the LXX itself was inspired. Another strong reason that many believed in the LXX’s inspiration was that a legend sprang up about its composition – that the books were translated independently by 72 scholars and that they arrived at, word for word, the identical translation.

Unfortunately, the oldest copies of the LXX currently in our possession date from the 4th century, and must have been copied by Christian hands. The antiquity of the translations can be established, however, from other considerations. The canon of the LXX is larger than than the present canon used by the Jews, and includes the books disputed between Catholics and Protestants (as well as the additions to Daniel and Esther).

The LXX was not generally available in the form of a modern Bible (although there are some copies, called codices, which were bound in a form like a modern book), but as a collection of scrolls, and thus its table of contents was less fixed. Furthermore, even in the ancient codices there is some variation in the contents. One finds books there that both Catholics and Protestants consider to be non-canonical. In all cases the disputed books are present in the codices, the only exception is that Maccabees is absent from one copy of the LXX named Codex Vaticanus.

In any event, one must recognize that at the time the New Testament was written the LXX was in wide use and was widely respected by the authors of the New Testament and the Jewish people living at that time – otherwise the New Testament writers would not have made use of it. Rapidly, however, it became more a Christian than a Jewish book. In fact, I think one can say with little exaggeration that it became the Christian Old Testament.

Even though the Jews don’t use the text. They do acknowledge some of its historical facts. They practice the Festival of Lights called Hanakuh.

 

[NotWorthy]

Ok point taken. But why isn’t the book in the Torah?

Um, Because then we’d have to call it the “Sextatauch”?

 

[NotWorthy]

Let me quote the following;

My commentary:

The Council of Jamnia rejected the Septuagint (Greek Translation of the Old Testament) because it was widely used by the Christians. The Jewish leaders at the time felt threaten. In order to preserve the Jewish tradition, they only use only Hebrew Text (Mesoretic Text).

This Council is not binding to all Jews. As you can see, the Jews in Ethiopia still use the Septuagint to this day.

I understand that the council in Jamnia NEVER revoked those seven books. They were revoked 1400 or so years later.

Here’s what I found from Agape Bible Study:

After the destruction of Jerusalem and God’s Holy Temple by the Romans in 70AD a group of Jewish scholars received permission from the Roman government to gather at a town called Jamnia [Jabneh]. These Jewish scholars, Pharisees and rabbis, formed a religious council and a school to study Sacred Scripture. Since the followers of Jesus were using the Greek Septuagint translation for apologetic and evangelistic purposes–using the text to prove that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Covenant and was indeed the promised Messiah-- this translation became an anathema to the Jewish scholars of Jamnia. Christians, for example, were using the Greek text from Isaiah 7:14 “The virgin shall conceive and bear a son…”, quoted from the Septuagint in Matthew 1:23 as proof of the prophecy of the virgin birth. In response to the conversion of many Jews to Christianity through the Septuagint translation, in about 100AD the scholars of Jamnia authorized a new Greek translation specifically to hinder such “proofs” of fulfillment of Old Covenant prophecy, thereby hoping to hinder the spread of Christianity. For example, the Jewish scholar Aquila, with the approval of the council, changed the Greek word "parthenos" = “virgin” in the Isaiah 7:14 passage to the Greek word for “young woman” = “neanis” in the newer Greek translation. These scholars also began to debate the Old Covenant canon and began recording the Oral Law [c. 200AD], which had been passed down through the ministerial priesthood from the time of Moses. This recording of the Oral Law would become the Mishnah. The Mishnah and its commentary, the Gemara [there are two, the Babylonian and the Palestinian], comprise the Jewish Talmud.

 

[NotWorthy]

It continues:

Even though challenges to the canonicity of Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon were debated at Jamnia, none of the 46 books of the 1st century AD Septuagint that we have in our Catholic Bibles were dropped until the early Middle Ages when the Masorites, a school of Jewish scholars, re-translated the altered Greek language Old Testament that was constructed in Jamnia back into Hebrew. At this time 7 books which we include were dropped from the Old Covenant canon including the only books of the Old Testament that recounted the story of the Jewish feast of Hanukkah, 1 and 2 Maccabees. The other books dropped from the Jewish canon were Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Baruch, along with parts of the texts of Daniel and Esther. Later in the 16th century AD, after over a thousand years of accepting the Catholic canon, Protestant Christians rejected the canon of the Catholic Old Testament and instead accepted both the translations and canon of the anti-Christian Masoretic Jewish Old Testament.

 

[LilyM]

Um, Because then we’d have to call it the “Sextatauch”?

there were two books of Maccabees, so it’d be the Heptateuch

 

[Mannyfit75]

I understand that the council in Jamnia NEVER revoked those seven books. They were revoked 1400 or so years later.

Here’s what I found from Agape Bible Study:

True.

In the Hebrew Text, it said, a woman shall conceived and bear a son."

In the Septuagint, it said, “a virgin shall conceived and bear a son.” Isaiah 7:14

 

[Mannyfit75]

Comments: The RSV translates Isaiah 7.14 as follows, “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” The Hebrew word here is almah, which means a young woman. Whether ‘almah’ necessarily implied virginity has long been a point of controversy.

 

[NotWorthy]

Comments: The RSV translates Isaiah 7.14 as follows, “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” The Hebrew word here is almah, which means a young woman. Whether ‘almah’ necessarily implied virginity has long been a point of controversy.

But you gotta link it back to Matthew, a book written in Hebrew, not Greek. He understood the prophecy referred to a virgin, and I don’t think anyone can deny that.

 

[NotWorthy]

there were two books of Maccabees, so it’d be the Heptateuch

OK, if you want to start nit-pickin’, there were FOUR books of Maccabees. So that would make it uh… uh… Well, I don’t know what it would make it!

 

[Mannyfit75]

But you gotta link it back to Matthew, a book written in Hebrew, not Greek. He understood the prophecy referred to a virgin, and I don’t think anyone can deny that.

He did. But why was the original Hebrew written it as woman instead of virgin. I made a thread on this subject in the Sacred Scripture Forum.

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=133871

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

]And most protestants see the same ones.
And evangelicals see the same contradictions.
And almost anyone who studies the bible and is NOT catholic.

Ah, but the majority of the Christians in the world are Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox, and the Armenian Apostolic Church, and to some degree the non-Protestant Anglicans with Protestants being a sizeable, but small % in comparison.

These three denominations of Apostolic Christianity all agree with each other on most of the major, salvation related doctrines. Protestant (I don’t know how Protestants hijacked the Evangelical term since if anyone was Evangelical history proves the Apostolic churches were by their #s) Christians are so divided on matters of both faith and morals it boggles the mind. God is not the author of confusion, but you know who is.

 

[patrick457]

The apocrypha has been proven historically false and it promotes magic which is unbiblical.
Therefore the canon with 46 OT is in error.
Something interesting to research would be the Golden Lampstand from Exodus.
Count up the bowls, knops, and flowers.
27 on each side plus twelve in the center.
27+27+12=66
27 books NT
27+12=39books OT
Check it out. Rather interesting.

You’re referring to the Book of Tobit on the above statement, aren’t you?

But the Angel Raphael using fish parts to cure Tobit’s Father and Sarah are no more Sorcery than Moses using Aaron’s Staff to deliver the Plagues to the Egyptians, split the Red Sea into two, strike the rock to make water flow out of it, and making the Brazen Serpent to heal the people from snake venom,
Elisha using a stick of wood to raise an axe head from the water (2 Kgs. 6: 1-7) or using meal to remove the poison on the vegetables that the sons of the prophets are cooking (2 Kgs. 4: 38),
Isaiah commanding King Hezekiah to take a cake of figs and laying on his boil so that he may recover (2 Kgs. 20: 7, Is. 38: 21),
The Apostles using oil to heal the sick (Mark 6: 13),
or Jesus using mud made from His spittle to cure the blind man in John 9.

Does that mean Jesus is a sorcerer when He used mud to cure the blind man or his spittle to cure the deaf man in Mark? Does that make the Gospels of Mark and John uninspired?

How could not God, who created the Universe out of nothing, split the sea in two and sent His Son to Earth not heal Sarah of her possession or Tobit of his blindness by just using those fish parts? If God could use men to prophesy to his people and write the Scriptures, why could he not use inanimate things to help men?

Now, about that Numerology…
There are 73 Books in the Catholic Bible. 72+1. Reverse 72 and you’ve got 27 (The Books on the NT). Subtract 72 and you’ve got 45. Add the 1 and you’ve got 46 (The number of books on the OT).

7 is a Biblical number, if you’ve noticed (God created the World on seven days and resting on the seventh,
there are seven lampstands in front of the Throne of God,
the Seven Spirits of God,
the Seven horns and eyes of the Lamb,
the Seven branches on the Menorah,
The Seven bowls,
the Seven Trumpets,
the Seven Seals,
the Jubilee year coming seven times after seven years,
The seven nations God told the Israelites they would displace: Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites.
The Seven Churches in Asia,
The number Jesus told Peter to forgive people (70x7)).
Seven is said to be the perfect number while six is imperfect (666, anyone?)

Three is also a Biblical number, the number of the Persons on the Trinity (though I’m not sure if you accept that doctrine), The three Patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob),
King Solomon mentioning in Ecclesiastes 4: 12 that “A three-ply cord is not easily severed”,
The three leaders of the Israelites during the 40 years in the desert (Moses, Aaron, Miriam),
The three gifts of the magi,
Jesus rising on the third day.

What was the point of the above? Just because the parts of the Menorah yield a number does not mean the 66 Book Canon is the correct one. The 73 Book Canon could also produce evidence that it is ‘Biblical’, just like what I’ve posted above.

 

[Chancellare]

Ah, but the majority of the Christians in the world are Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox, and the Armenian Apostolic Church, and to some degree the non-Protestant Anglicans with Protestants being a sizeable, but small % in comparison.

These three denominations of Apostolic Christianity all agree with each other on most of the major, salvation related doctrines. Protestant (I don’t know how Protestants hijacked the Evangelical term since if anyone was Evangelical history proves the Apostolic churches were by their #s) Christians are so divided on matters of both faith and morals it boggles the mind. God is not the author of confusion, but you know who is.

It scares me to think that God would allow confusion or divisiveness to those who really follow His Will.(?). I Remember Jesus called Peter “Satan”(Get behind me) when he proposed the Passion should not happen to Jesus. Talk of following God’s Will.

 

[newbie1234]

You’re referring to the Book of Tobit on the above statement, aren’t you?

But the Angel Raphael using fish parts to cure Tobit’s Father and Sarah are no more Sorcery than Moses using Aaron’s Staff to deliver the Plagues to the Egyptians, split the Red Sea into two, strike the rock to make water flow out of it, and making the Brazen Serpent to heal the people from snake venom,
Elisha using a stick of wood to raise an axe head from the water (2 Kgs. 6: 1-7) or using meal to remove the poison on the vegetables that the sons of the prophets are cooking (2 Kgs. 4: 38),
Isaiah commanding King Hezekiah to take a cake of figs and laying on his boil so that he may recover (2 Kgs. 20: 7, Is. 38: 21),
The Apostles using oil to heal the sick (Mark 6: 13),
or Jesus using mud made from His spittle to cure the blind man in John 9.

Does that mean Jesus is a sorcerer when He used mud to cure the blind man or his spittle to cure the deaf man in Mark? Does that make the Gospels of Mark and John uninspired?

How could not God, who created the Universe out of nothing, split the sea in two and sent His Son to Earth not heal Sarah of her possession or Tobit of his blindness by just using those fish parts? If God could use men to prophesy to his people and write the Scriptures, why could he not use inanimate things to help men?

Now, about that Numerology…
There are 73 Books in the Catholic Bible. 72+1. Reverse 72 and you’ve got 27 (The Books on the NT). Subtract 72 and you’ve got 45. Add the 1 and you’ve got 46 (The number of books on the OT).

7 is a Biblical number, if you’ve noticed (God created the World on seven days and resting on the seventh,
there are seven lampstands in front of the Throne of God,
the Seven Spirits of God,
the Seven horns and eyes of the Lamb,
the Seven branches on the Menorah,
The Seven bowls,
the Seven Trumpets,
the Seven Seals,
the Jubilee year coming seven times after seven years,
The seven nations God told the Israelites they would displace: Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and the Jebusites.
The Seven Churches in Asia,
The number Jesus told Peter to forgive people (70x7)).
Seven is said to be the perfect number while six is imperfect (666, anyone?)

Three is also a Biblical number, the number of the Persons on the Trinity (though I’m not sure if you accept that doctrine), The three Patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob),
King Solomon mentioning in Ecclesiastes 4: 12 that “A three-ply cord is not easily severed”,
The three leaders of the Israelites during the 40 years in the desert (Moses, Aaron, Miriam),
The three gifts of the magi,
Jesus rising on the third day.

What was the point of the above? Just because the parts of the Menorah yield a number does not mean the 66 Book Canon is the correct one. The 73 Book Canon could also produce evidence that it is ‘Biblical’, just like what I’ve posted above.

Your numerology doesn’t make sense.
And the OT miracles you stated were expressly described by God.Did God tell Moses he would use his staff to do those things? That is not magic.That is the power of God.The same with Jesus and the mud. It is not magic. It is God’s healing power.
However the fish heart driving away demons is magic

 

[lak611]

Your numerology doesn’t make sense.

But your’s does?

And the OT miracles you stated were expressly described by God.Did God tell Moses he would use his staff to do those things? That is not magic.That is the power of God.The same with Jesus and the mud. It is not magic. It is God’s healing power.
However the fish heart driving away demons is magic

What about Acts 19:11-12? " 11God was performing (V)extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,
12(W)so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and (X)the evil spirits went out.(NASB)" Is that magic too?

 

[runandsew]

The apocrypha has been proven historically false and it promotes magic which is unbiblical.
Therefore the canon with 46 OT is in error.
Something interesting to research would be the Golden Lampstand from Exodus.
Count up the bowls, knops, and flowers.
27 on each side plus twelve in the center.
27+27+12=66
27 books NT
27+12=39books OT
Check it out. Rather interesting.

Or,
73 total books - 7 (completeness) = 66 (incompleteness)
so an incomplete bible (incomplete = 6) with the 66 books = 666
Most of the people that accept the 66 books deny the real presense of Jesus in the eucharist = denying Jesus= AntiChrist
many disciples leave at the teaching of the real presense
John 6:66
So lets see here we have the mark of the beast and the antichrist.
doesn’t look so good for your side.

Numerology is superstitious, which the bible tells us not to engage in.