Sacred Traditions That Supposedly Contradict The Bible

[Unitas]

I never said Luther was infallible.

But you believe in sola scriptura which was his invention. And you reject the greek OT on his say so alone without question. So you’re taking his actions and teachings as truth over all others.

No man is infallible except Jesus.

Show me where Jesus named all of the books of the bible so we know for sure the bible is infallible.

The Jews don’t include the Apocrypha in their scriptures either.

If the jews jumped off a bridge would you do it too?

The Church’s authority was well established by the time the jews dumped the greek OT for the hebrew.

They are not historically correct.

Prove it.

The greek OT was in the bible for 1500 years before Luther took it out. That’s a fact. You accept his infallible authority on what is inspired scripture. It’s pretty hard to believe that God would let us use the wrong OT for 15 centuries and needed Martin Luther to set the entire world straight.

Even the first editions of the KJV had the 73-book OT. Then the 7 were moved to an appendix in the back, then removed altogether.

 

[patrick457]

Your numerology doesn’t make sense.
And the OT miracles you stated were expressly described by God.Did God tell Moses he would use his staff to do those things? That is not magic.That is the power of God.The same with Jesus and the mud. It is not magic. It is God’s healing power.
However the fish heart driving away demons is magic

Okay, so God could help His chosen people using sticks and mud and figs and spittle, but He could not cure a possessed woman or a blind man using fish parts?

And, call me a bit of a doubting Thomas here, but is there anything written in the text of the Book of Tobit that says the Angel Raphael used magic? Is there any indication in the text that his using fish heart, liver and gall is sorcery?

And as for the Numerology,
just like what I’ve said before, Is the 66-Book Canon proved to be the ‘correct’ one because people see that number if you add together the parts of the Menorah?

 

[Unitas]

Your numerology doesn’t make sense.

Ok I think I got a way to prove why there’s 66 boks in your OT:

73 (books in the OT As declared by Pope Damasus I in 382AD)

• 7 (books taken out on Luther’s whim)

---

= 66 books in the protestant OT

We’re not joking here, go look it up. There were 73 OT books for 1500 years.

Catholic traditions, which you reject, have at least some basis in the bible.

Luther’s traditions, which you accept as Truth, have zero basis in the bible.

To accept a tradition with no proof and reject traditions supported by proof is intellectually dishonest.

 

[NotWorthy]

Your numerology doesn’t make sense.
And the OT miracles you stated were expressly described by God.Did God tell Moses he would use his staff to do those things? That is not magic.That is the power of God.The same with Jesus and the mud. It is not magic. It is God’s healing power.
However the fish heart driving away demons is magic

An angel of the Lord would resort to Magic?!?!?

 

[GraceDK]

“Every church needs members. Like my church needs me.
I have said before on this forum, if I went back to the RCC, I could not sit in silent submission.There are too many things that I disagree with. I would be excommunicated within the first week.” -newbie

Of course I understand what you are saying. Yet it stirs a feeling of resistance within me when you talk about “members”, and I must urge you, if you have not already, to look at the Church not as an organisation of people, just like any social club, where one has a membership.
When I say the Church needs you I do not mean the one fragment or the other. "I who am a prisoner for the Lord urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle, patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one Body and one Spirit - one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one father of all, over all, through all, and in all.
This is the Body - Christ’s body, mutilated: that we do not recognize our brothers but make clubs that multiply through division.
Why then do Christ pray that all may be one so that the world may recognize Him… if it is okay for us all to be visibly differentiating ourselves under the One Name? We must all strive for unity. It will not come about by signed treaty, but by the Holy Spirit when we lower our voices.
We are dealing with no mere membership, but about becoming one in Christ.

There is no doubt in my heart that the full unity is very linked with the Real Presence in the Eucharist. You will continue to be a member of the third tongue (evangelical Christianity) as long as you do not yet fully know Him there. He has promised His real presence both in the OT and NT. No?

Let me ask you something brother. How do you explain Zachariah 14.? It is obvious that the passage deals with sacrifice after the coming of the Messiah… or how do you explain the daily sacrifice mentioned in the Book of Daniel?

When it comes to the deutero canonical writings the damage has been done by Luther. But the fact is fact, and if you have read all of what the brothers here have shared with you, then you will know it also in your heart. You really ought to meditate on the influence that Luther has had on your life. You may also think about his teachings in general… And you really have to admit that you have been taught to embrace his teachings. Even I did that as a liberal protestant, embrace it, without realising it. Since I have stepped outside my tradition I also see how my old church really treats Luthers words as being truth without error… the Luther who among other things said: sin and sin hard as long as you remember the saving work of God… remain dung under the snow of God.

I want you to look at the Book of Wisdom 2:10-20 … that is one very beautiful prophesy about Jesus…This kind of prophesy was not very convenient for rabbinic judaism which scorned the Cross and called Jesus an illegetimate child. I have not met one person who did not, when studying the facts, get a resentment against the very audacious step that Luther took when removing these books…

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Newbie1234:

And the OT miracles you stated were expressly described by God.Did God tell Moses he would use his staff to do those things? That is not magic.That is the power of God.The same with Jesus and the mud. It is not magic. It is God’s healing power.
However the fish heart driving away demons is magic

As far as I know magic comes from the devil. Am I not right? So how could magic drive away demons?

Do you believe that an Angel would do magic?

 

[newbie1234]

Okay, so God could help His chosen people using sticks and mud and figs and spittle, but He could not cure a possessed woman or a blind man using fish parts?

And, call me a bit of a doubting Thomas here, but is there anything written in the text of the Book of Tobit that says the Angel Raphael used magic? Is there any indication in the text that his using fish heart, liver and gall is sorcery?

And as for the Numerology,
just like what I’ve said before, Is the 66-Book Canon proved to be the ‘correct’ one because people see that number if you add together the parts of the Menorah?

Of course the menorah doesn’t prove the 66 books. It is just an interesting side note. If you don’t like it don’t accept it.
If you like the acpocrypha, then by all means accept it.

 

[newbie1234]

“Every church needs members. Like my church needs me.
I have said before on this forum, if I went back to the RCC, I could not sit in silent submission.There are too many things that I disagree with. I would be excommunicated within the first week.” -newbie

Of course I understand what you are saying. Yet it stirs a feeling of resistance within me when you talk about “members”, and I must urge you, if you have not already, to look at the Church not as an organisation of people, just like any social club, where one has a membership.
When I say the Church needs you I do not mean the one fragment or the other. "I who am a prisoner for the Lord urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle, patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one Body and one Spirit - one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one father of all, over all, through all, and in all.
This is the Body - Christ’s body, mutilated: that we do not recognize our brothers but make clubs that multiply through division.
Why then do Christ pray that all may be one so that the world may recognize Him… if it is okay for us all to be visibly differentiating ourselves under the One Name? We must all strive for unity. It will not come about by signed treaty, but by the Holy Spirit when we lower our voices.
We are dealing with no mere membership, but about becoming one in Christ.

There is no doubt in my heart that the full unity is very linked with the Real Presence in the Eucharist. You will continue to be a member of the third tongue (evangelical Christianity) as long as you do not yet fully know Him there. He has promised His real presence both in the OT and NT. No?

Let me ask you something brother. How do you explain Zachariah 14.? It is obvious that the passage deals with sacrifice after the coming of the Messiah… or how do you explain the daily sacrifice mentioned in the Book of Daniel?

When it comes to the deutero canonical writings the damage has been done by Luther. But the fact is fact, and if you have read all of what the brothers here have shared with you, then you will know it also in your heart. You really ought to meditate on the influence that Luther has had on your life. You may also think about his teachings in general… And you really have to admit that you have been taught to embrace his teachings. Even I did that as a liberal protestant, embrace it, without realising it. Since I have stepped outside my tradition I also see how my old church really treats Luthers words as being truth without error… the Luther who among other things said: sin and sin hard as long as you remember the saving work of God… remain dung under the snow of God.

I want you to look at the Book of Wisdom 2:10-20 … that is one very beautiful prophesy about Jesus…This kind of prophesy was not very convenient for rabbinic judaism which scorned the Cross and called Jesus an illegetimate child. I have not met one person who did not, when studying the facts, get a resentment against the very audacious step that Luther took when removing these books…

Zechariah 14 is describing the upcoming 7 year tribulation.
Which Verse in Daniel?

 

[NotWorthy]

Of course the menorah doesn’t prove the 66 books. It is just an interesting side note. If you don’t like it don’t accept it.
If you like the acpocrypha, then by all means accept it.

It’s got nothing to do with liking it. It’s got everything to do with trusting the authority that Jesus left with His Church. Once you’ve done that, case closed!

 

[GraceDK]

So you have your Bible in front of you brother Newbie?
Will you allow me to quote a short passage from a book written by a former fundamentalist who became Catholic. His name is David Currie and he has written a book called “Born Fundamentalist. Born again Catholic”. It might interest you. I quote from p. 45. David writes: "Catholic teaching on the Eucharist also helped me understand a passage in Zechariah that is unexplainable from an Evangelical perspective. "On that day…all who come TO SACRIFICE will take some of the pots and cook in them (Zech 14:20-21). This verse had been an enigma for me for sixteen years, ever since I had been a student at TEDS. I vividly remember standing in a hallway, in conversation with a man whose speciality was eschatology. A young man approached us and asked the specialist about this verse from Zechariah. His question was, “if Jesus’ sacrifice is final and complete, why will there be sacrifices needed in Jerusalem after the death and resurrection of Jesus?” The scolars face momentarily clouded with annoyance, and I have never forgotten his next statement. He admitted that he knew of no plausible Evangelical explanation for this passage. The reason this verse is such a problem for Evangelicals is that virtually all of them agree that it speaks of events occuring in the Kingdom that Christ would come to establish. But here is the problem. After Christ had died and set up his Kingdom, why would sacrifices still be needed in israel?Evangelicals are adamant that sacrifice is no longer needed, and there is no need for an earthly priesthood. (…)
Catholics believe their Sacrifice of the Eucharist makes the grace of the cross available today (…)
I finally reached the conclusion that Zechariah had to be referring to the Eucharist.(…)
“The Lord has sworn and will not change His Mind: You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek…”(psalm 110:4) -this is said about Jesus. by definition a priest offers sacrifice. What did Melchizedek offer? Bread and wine. (…) the logical question is: “when did Jesus offer bread and wine. Yes the last supper. Jesus fulfilled this function of the Melchizedikian priesthood then. Jesus saw the Last Supper as the institution of a sacrifice. Otherwise the imagery of psalm 110 is emtied of meaning. (…)
The greek word " remembrance” is a rare word in Scripture. In the NT it is only used once out side of the context of the last supper and that is in Hebrews 10:3 where the remembrance is the act of carrying out a sacrifice. (…) in OT it is used twice: also both times meaning actually a sacrifice… - p.47
I find such reflections might be usefull to you. Because I have no problem with you being in a fellowship of loving people and loving Christ among them, but I hope that you would one day realise the need of your soul for the blessed Eucharist.

You have your hands full here but when it comes to Daniel it is again a question of having the Holy Spirit help you look at sacred Scripture as a whole. I am talking about Daniel’s prophesies on the end time… chapter 8 tells us about the daily sacrifice and about the abomination of the desolation. These words will ring a bell to you if you have noticed them in revelation which also foresees the trambling of the Sacrifice, the abomination of the desolation will rise up in the holiest of holies… I will not go into further detail on my interpretation of this which also holds great hardships to come for the Church. But the thing I want you to note is the words about the daily offering… the sacrifice… the bread and the wine… the Body and the Blood…

<><
Baruch Hashem

 

[RNRobert]

I want you to look at the Book of Wisdom 2:10-20 … that is one very beautiful prophesy about Jesus…This kind of prophesy was not very convenient for rabbinic judaism which scorned the Cross and called Jesus an illegetimate child. I have not met one person who did not, when studying the facts, get a resentment against the very audacious step that Luther took when removing these books…

I read this passage about a year before I became Catholic, and my first impression was "this has *got *to be prophetic!

 

[GraceDK]

Dear Brother Robert.
You are lucky. I only came to know of the Apocrypha through Jesus himself upon my conversion when He also told me about the perpetual Sacrifice that is His Body and Blood … I was 21 years old and thought of Luther as quite a hero up until then… now three years have passed and I am not so impressed with him anymore.
And the first time I heard the specific prophesy here mentioned was when it was read from the pulpit in my local Catholic Church and I was breathless on hearing it… so wonderful… so beautiful… such a perfect prophesy of what happened when the crowds and pharisees mocked our dearly beloved Lord Jesus on the Cross.
There was no doubt from that day in my heart that these writings were inspired. Later on all other teachings from the Lord through his Word confirmed this to me as well.
Oh praised be the Lord, glory be to God, blessed is our King.
Is He not beautiful!
Jesus wants to give it all to us… We love you Lord… <><

 

[GraceDK]

by the way bro… I love your picture

 

[newbie1234]

So you have your Bible in front of you brother Newbie?
Will you allow me to quote a short passage from a book written by a former fundamentalist who became Catholic. His name is David Currie and he has written a book called “Born Fundamentalist. Born again Catholic”. It might interest you. I quote from p. 45. David writes: "Catholic teaching on the Eucharist also helped me understand a passage in Zechariah that is unexplainable from an Evangelical perspective. "On that day…all who come TO SACRIFICE will take some of the pots and cook in them (Zech 14:20-21). This verse had been an enigma for me for sixteen years, ever since I had been a student at TEDS. I vividly remember standing in a hallway, in conversation with a man whose speciality was eschatology. A young man approached us and asked the specialist about this verse from Zechariah. His question was, “if Jesus’ sacrifice is final and complete, why will there be sacrifices needed in Jerusalem after the death and resurrection of Jesus?” The scolars face momentarily clouded with annoyance, and I have never forgotten his next statement. He admitted that he knew of no plausible Evangelical explanation for this passage. The reason this verse is such a problem for Evangelicals is that virtually all of them agree that it speaks of events occuring in the Kingdom that Christ would come to establish. But here is the problem. After Christ had died and set up his Kingdom, why would sacrifices still be needed in israel?Evangelicals are adamant that sacrifice is no longer needed, and there is no need for an earthly priesthood. (…)
Catholics believe their Sacrifice of the Eucharist makes the grace of the cross available today (…)
I finally reached the conclusion that Zechariah had to be referring to the Eucharist.(…)
“The Lord has sworn and will not change His Mind: You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek…”(psalm 110:4) -this is said about Jesus. by definition a priest offers sacrifice. What did Melchizedek offer? Bread and wine. (…) the logical question is: “when did Jesus offer bread and wine. Yes the last supper. Jesus fulfilled this function of the Melchizedikian priesthood then. Jesus saw the Last Supper as the institution of a sacrifice. Otherwise the imagery of psalm 110 is emtied of meaning. (…)
The greek word " remembrance” is a rare word in Scripture. In the NT it is only used once out side of the context of the last supper and that is in Hebrews 10:3 where the remembrance is the act of carrying out a sacrifice. (…) in OT it is used twice: also both times meaning actually a sacrifice… - p.47
I find such reflections might be usefull to you. Because I have no problem with you being in a fellowship of loving people and loving Christ among them, but I hope that you would one day realise the need of your soul for the blessed Eucharist.

You have your hands full here but when it comes to Daniel it is again a question of having the Holy Spirit help you look at sacred Scripture as a whole. I am talking about Daniel’s prophesies on the end time… chapter 8 tells us about the daily sacrifice and about the abomination of the desolation. These words will ring a bell to you if you have noticed them in revelation which also foresees the trambling of the Sacrifice, the abomination of the desolation will rise up in the holiest of holies… I will not go into further detail on my interpretation of this which also holds great hardships to come for the Church. But the thing I want you to note is the words about the daily offering… the sacrifice… the bread and the wine… the Body and the Blood…

<><
Baruch Hashem

the zechariah verse has to do with the millenial kingdom. The 1000 year reign after the tribulation. There will be a new jerusalem. In the new jerusalem, they will have celebrations.
The sacrifices mentioned will not be sin sacrifices because that was already taken care of on the Cross.
Your idea of it being the eucharist seems odd because the verse says they will ‘cook’ the sacrifice. I don’t think it has anything to do with the eucharist.
Dan 8 is refering to the temple to be built.
Right now, The Jews are in disobedience because they do not accept the Messiah. So they are still under the Mosaic Law. They still must sacrifice. They do not have a temple so they do not sacrifice at this time.
However, before the upcoming tribulation, the temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will resume.
The abomination of desolation will take place in the temple that is not yet built.
As far as I know, all the tabernacle utensils have been made, and the temple plans are ready. They are waiting to get the go ahead to build on the temple mount.
Also the sanhedrin has been reformed.
So the time is near! Praise God!

 

[RNRobert]

the zechariah verse has to do with the millenial kingdom. The 1000 year reign after the tribulation. There will be a new jerusalem. In the new jerusalem, they will have celebrations.
The sacrifices mentioned will not be sin sacrifices because that was already taken care of on the Cross.
Your idea of it being the eucharist seems odd because the verse says they will ‘cook’ the sacrifice. I don’t think it has anything to do with the eucharist.
Dan 8 is refering to the temple to be built.
Right now, The Jews are in disobedience because they do not accept the Messiah. So they are still under the Mosaic Law. They still must sacrifice. They do not have a temple so they do not sacrifice at this time.
However, before the upcoming tribulation, the temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will resume.
The abomination of desolation will take place in the temple that is not yet built.
As far as I know, all the tabernacle utensils have been made, and the temple plans are ready. They are waiting to get the go ahead to build on the temple mount.
Also the sanhedrin has been reformed.
So the time is near! Praise God!

First off, the “abomination of desolation” most likely refers to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Secondly, a Moslem mosque called the Dome of the Rock sits on the old temple site, and I don’t think the Moslems are going to let the Jews tear it down so they can rebuild their temple.

As for the Eucharist, there’s Malachi 1:11

“From the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; and everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering.” (NAB, Douay-Rheims has ‘clean oblation.’).
Many have seen this as a prophecy of the Eucharist, which is offered every day around the globe.

 

[newbie1234]

First off, the “abomination of desolation” most likely refers to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Secondly, a Moslem mosque called the Dome of the Rock sits on the old temple site, and I don’t think the Moslems are going to let the Jews tear it down so they can rebuild their temple.

As for the Eucharist, there’s Malachi 1:11

“From the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; and everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering.” (NAB, Douay-Rheims has ‘clean oblation.’).
Many have seen this as a prophecy of the Eucharist, which is offered every day around the globe.

There is room on the temple mount for the jewish temple and the dome of the rock and the Al aqsa mosque. Been there and seen that.

 

[lak611]

the zechariah verse has to do with the millenial kingdom. The 1000 year reign after the tribulation. There will be a new jerusalem. In the new jerusalem, they will have celebrations.
Dan 8 is refering to the temple to be built.
Right now, The Jews are in disobedience because they do not accept the Messiah. So they are still under the Mosaic Law. They still must sacrifice. They do not have a temple so they do not sacrifice at this time.
However, before the upcoming tribulation, the temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will resume.
The abomination of desolation will take place in the temple that is not yet built.
As far as I know, all the tabernacle utensils have been made, and the temple plans are ready. They are waiting to get the go ahead to build on the temple mount.
Also the sanhedrin has been reformed.
So the time is near! Praise God!

There is no millenium coming up. This would require that Jesus comes back two more times. He will only come back once more, at the end of the world. See this link about the falsity of the millenium. catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp. Here is another link that debunks the Left Behind** series. catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp.

 

[newbie1234]

There is no millenium coming up. This would require that Jesus comes back two more times. He will only come back once more, at the end of the world. See this link about the falsity of the millenium. catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp. Here is another link that debunks the Left Behind** series. catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp.

The millenial kindom is a thousand year reign where all thing will be made right.
First there will be a tribulation.
A 7 year period of destruction which is prophesied in Daniel. It is the 70th week of the prophecy.
During that time Christ will return and set up the millenial kingdom. Where He will reign for 1000yrs.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The millenial kindom is a thousand year reign where all thing will be made right.
First there will be a tribulation.
A 7 year period of destruction which is prophesied in Daniel. It is the 70th week of the prophecy.
During that time Christ will return and set up the millenial kingdom. Where He will reign for 1000yrs.

In my Bible, Jesus ONLY returns Once on His Second Coming. Not Two Second Comings…

 

[newbie1234]

In my Bible, Jesus ONLY returns Once on His Second Coming. Not Two Second Comings…

the second coming is just that, a second coming of Christ. It happens somtime during the tribulation. I never said He would come a third time.