Sacred Traditions That Supposedly Contradict The Bible

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lak611 said:
Different word describing Stephen. That word is pleres which means complete, covered over, full. The same word for full is this case is used for full baskets, full spiritually of the Holy Spirit, full of faith, full of evil, full of a reward hereafter. “Highly favoured” though refers to grace given by God unmerited, not as a reward.
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Are you sure. Isn’t it something like “pleres charis”? This is called filled with Grace.
 
newbie1234 said:
Your posts are like beautiful poetry.
Thank you.
But I am not led back to the RCC at this time.
I am not resisting any prompting what so ever.
I do not know what the future holds, but I will say, for me to accept the teachings of the RCC, there has to be a tremendous change in either me or the RCC. And I don’t think the RCC has any plans of changing anything.
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And you can rest assured that it never will. To me, that’s comforting. I don’t know why anyone would want it any other way.
 
“But I am not led back to the RCC at this time.
I am not resisting any prompting what so ever.
I do not know what the future holds, but I will say, for me to accept the teachings of the RCC, there has to be a tremendous change in either me or the RCC. And I don’t think the RCC has any plans of changing anything.”

I am happy that you are not resisting. Many are… many are resisting all kinds of things even when they have given everything over by word of mouth. But the Lord knows our frailty.
I know that one cannot, no matter how much one struggles, accept anything. Acceptance of truth is always by grace. We must continually pray that we do not run ten steps in front of Jesus but that we listen to Him… listening may not always be pleasant… Indeed, one of His most hard and serious words are these: “Die to yourself… loose your life…” is it not so, that even when we choose a Church we look not always at the truth but rather on the feel-good…
I have many times indulged in missions which were self-appointed but at the time I was pretending to serve the Lord, whereas in reality I was the one who was being satisfied on whatever I thought to be satisfying at that moment. But my work was not effective… the Lord waited and is still waiting for me to mature…
I believe these are common temptations.
But we must all recognize that the Lord is the one we serve and that we will recognize what He says is true… not what we feel is true… Indeed, if Jesus said that the moon was a green cheese then would you believe Him? Yes?.. me too, for sure! Jesus knows better even than all what we think we know… I am sure we will all get a mighty shock one day when He lets us know about all our folly.

But all that aside. This is the whole truth… is it okay to be a bit honest here tonight? (I know I am asking a bit late)… the fact is that we need you. Yes, exactly you… and also your brothers, our brothers. How can the Church ever be healed when the wounds are left open. We need your gifts, your love, your knowledge. Now this is the truth: No church in the world will work as well as it was intended to as long as there is division among the brothers. Oh yes, and you need us. We need each other badly. So keep on praying with total openess… pray for us, brother, and pray for you and pray for unity.

Now I definately have to go… <><

Sorry about my spelling (English is not my mother tongue:)
 
lak611 said:
Pleres hagios pneuma are the words describing Stephen, filled with the Holy Ghost.
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Thanks. It seems I’ve heard this argument against the Kecharitomone phrase. I don’t know what I was thinking, though.
 
lak611 said:
Pleres hagios pneuma are the words describing Stephen, filled with the Holy Ghost.
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RATS!!! It was Acts 6:8. ***Now Stephen, filled with grace and power, was working great wonders and signs among the people.

How does this “filled with Grace” (charis?) differ from “highly favored” (charoo?)? I know, I know, it’s all Greek to me! 🙂 But I’m trying to understand this to rebut the Protestant arguement of “Highly Favored”.*
 
NotWorthy said:
RATS!!! It was Acts 6:8. ***Now Stephen, filled with grace and power, was working great wonders and signs among the people.

How does this “filled with Grace” (charis?) differ from “highly favored” (charoo?)? I know, I know, it’s all Greek to me! 🙂 But I’m trying to understand this to rebut the Protestant arguement of “Highly Favored”.*
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I am checking Acts 6:8 right now. Apparently, the KJV differs from all the other translations. I’ve checked Douay-Rheims, RSV, NAB, NIV, NASB and all say Stephen is filled with “grace”, except the KJV says “And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.”

I’m still working on the Greek translation thing for Acts 6:8. I will get back to you on it. Oddly enough, the KJV is the only translation that doesn’t say “grace” regarding Stephen.
 
lak611 said:
I am checking Acts 6:8 right now. Apparently, the KJV differs from all the other translations. I’ve checked Douay-Rheims, RSV, NAB, NIV, NASB and all say Stephen is filled with “grace”, except the KJV says “And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.”

I’m still working on the Greek translation thing for Acts 6:8. I will get back to you on it. Oddly enough, the KJV is the only translation that doesn’t say “grace” regarding Stephen.
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But if the two words have the same root, shouldn’t it say, “Stephen, filled with FAVOR”? 😉
 
GraceDK said:
“But I am not led back to the RCC at this time.
I am not resisting any prompting what so ever.
I do not know what the future holds, but I will say, for me to accept the teachings of the RCC, there has to be a tremendous change in either me or the RCC. And I don’t think the RCC has any plans of changing anything.”

I am happy that you are not resisting. Many are… many are resisting all kinds of things even when they have given everything over by word of mouth. But the Lord knows our frailty.
I know that one cannot, no matter how much one struggles, accept anything. Acceptance of truth is always by grace. We must continually pray that we do not run ten steps in front of Jesus but that we listen to Him… listening may not always be pleasant… Indeed, one of His most hard and serious words are these: “Die to yourself… loose your life…” is it not so, that even when we choose a Church we look not always at the truth but rather on the feel-good…
I have many times indulged in missions which were self-appointed but at the time I was pretending to serve the Lord, whereas in reality I was the one who was being satisfied on whatever I thought to be satisfying at that moment. But my work was not effective… the Lord waited and is still waiting for me to mature…
I believe these are common temptations.
But we must all recognize that the Lord is the one we serve and that we will recognize what He says is true… not what we feel is true… Indeed, if Jesus said that the moon was a green cheese then would you believe Him? Yes?.. me too, for sure! Jesus knows better even than all what we think we know… I am sure we will all get a mighty shock one day when He lets us know about all our folly.

But all that aside. This is the whole truth… is it okay to be a bit honest here tonight? (I know I am asking a bit late)… the fact is that we need you. Yes, exactly you… and also your brothers, our brothers. How can the Church ever be healed when the wounds are left open. We need your gifts, your love, your knowledge. Now this is the truth: No church in the world will work as well as it was intended to as long as there is division among the brothers. Oh yes, and you need us. We need each other badly. So keep on praying with total openess… pray for us, brother, and pray for you and pray for unity.

Now I definately have to go… <><

Sorry about my spelling (English is not my mother tongue:)
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Every church needs members. Like my church needs me.
I have said before on this forum, if I went back to the RCC, I could not sit in silent submission.There are too many things that I disagree with. I would be excommunicated within the first week.
 
lak611 said:
I am checking Acts 6:8 right now. Apparently, the KJV differs from all the other translations. I’ve checked Douay-Rheims, RSV, NAB, NIV, NASB and all say Stephen is filled with “grace”, except the KJV says “And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.”

I’m still working on the Greek translation thing for Acts 6:8. I will get back to you on it. Oddly enough, the KJV is the only translation that doesn’t say “grace” regarding Stephen.
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The word faith in the KJV in Acts 6:8 is the Greek word pistis. From Strong’s, "Pistis** is **(1)******conviction of the truth of anything, belief; of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it. It is related **(1a)**to God with the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ; (1b) to Christ with a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. **(2)**It includes all of the religious beliefs of Christians.(3)****Pistis is used of belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. (4) It speaks of fidelity, faithfulness.(5)******It describes the character of one who can be relied on.

Since the Strong’s Concordance** is keyed to the text of the KJV, if the translators of the KJV messed up and used the word “faith” instead of “grace” in Acts 6:8, I can’t help with the Greek. I’m thinking possibly KJV is wrong because all the other translations I mentioned above say “grace.”
 
newbie1234 said:
Every church needs members. Like my church needs me.
I have said before on this forum, if I went back to the RCC, I could not sit in silent submission.There are too many things that I disagree with. I would be excommunicated within the first week.
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“Ti-i-i-ime, is on my side, yes it is”!!!

I’ll remember to TIVO “Coming Home” just in case. Keep your swim suit on, Newbie!

Uh, you see, Coming Home is a show on EWTN about people who converted to Catholicism. Yeah… converts… all of them…Yeah, it’s very spiritual… What? swimsuits?.. yeah, that’s in reference to crossing the Tiber… Tiber? Oh yeah, that’s the river that you must cross to get to the Vatican…you see, if you convert, we often call it “Crossing the Tiber”… yeah, It could happen!
 
NotWorthy said:
But if the two words have the same root, shouldn’t it say, “Stephen, filled with FAVOR”? 😉
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Problem is KJV says “faith” rather than “grace”. I don’t have a concordance with Greek words besides the Strong’s** which is keyed to the KJV (and I think it made a mistake in this text since none of the other translations have “faith” instead of “grace”).
 
NotWorthy said:
But if the two words have the same root, shouldn’t it say, “Stephen, filled with FAVOR”? 😉
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G5485
χάρις
charis
khar’-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Yes, you are right. I downloaded another Greek New Testament on e-Sword and found what the KJV messed up in Acts 6:8. The KJV uses the Textus Receptus, a different Greek manuscript. There’s the definition above. Same word describing Mary.
 
lak611 said:
G5485
χάρις
charis
khar’-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Yes, you are right. I downloaded another Greek New Testament on e-Sword and found what the KJV messed up in Acts 6:8. The KJV uses the Textus Receptus, a different Greek manuscript. There’s the definition above. Same word describing Mary.
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So is stephen immaculately conceived also?
 
newbie1234 said:
So is stephen immaculately conceived also?
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Nice try. But Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit at that moment. No Kecharitomone for him.

BTW, the story of Stephen is a wonderful answer to the question, “Why does God allow evil in the world”. The answer, of course, is so that a Greater Good can come of it.

So what happened as a result of the stoning of Stephen? The other Greek deacons (?) were afraid to stay in Jerusalem so they went out into the world to spread the Gospel! I love it when God turns man’s ways against him!!!
 
GraceDK said:
Dear brother newbie.
I am happy for you that your faith has grown. Also good that you have a street ministry, read the Word for over an hour, go to church for three times a week… Hmm… I think that if you were a catholic some protestants might have put you up against the wall charging you with justification-by-works Christianity and maybe even pride: " I do this and that… am I not holy/saved/born again?" …
I was “saved into” the Catholic Church from Protestantism. before that I prayed 5 minutes max during the day, made my own laws, interpreted the Bible according to my own head and sinned. was this protestantism? No… I can blame my spritual death on my self only.
Jesus then suddenly made me fall in love with Him and believe in Him… He told me about the mysteries of faith. I had no teacher but Him… He led me into the Bible, opened Scripture to me, taught me about His Sacraments, answered my questions in a coherent whole that just grows everyday.
The Jesus who taught me and whom I fell totally in love with showed me into the Catholic faith. Since then I would be in the Church and on my knees for endless hours… how much is not of importance. The important part was that I was a flame with love for Christ. I have met brothers and sisters in different churches since that day, who have had that same love, that intense love, that does not ask how, where, what or why… it can but follow the Beloved. We all do this to our utmost capacity… The Lord lets us see according to our dying from ourselves… when we ask, He answers, when we seek, He lets us find… How great is our God!

but brother… have you studied Church history? …the real early stuff… I gotta say that when I was an evangelical I was pretty much historyless … and it continues to surprise me how the earliest of our brethen taught, lived and believed.

You say you accept the OT on the basis that it is obviously good enough for Jesus. Thats a good answer, I have my self given the same answer when it comes to the apocrypha… You do know they were in the Septuagint of Jesus’ day right?.. they are quoted hundreds of times in the NT. But Luther had the nerve to remove them… there was something in them that he did not like … but he had the authority to do that… or what? where does authority come from? everyone must ask himself and start by admitting that he was taught by someone, either him self, the fundamentalists, the RCC or someone else. No one is without tradition…
Brother, I dont mean to be harsh on you… You must look at the Church through the eyes of Jesus… I see you feel you have been let down… and you might have been… but the Word says: “the bridegrom and the bride becomes one… also so with Christ and His Church…” He has not let her down, neither in the hours of darkness… is it not right that the servant follows the Master… then the servant must also be brought to obedience through suffering according to His Word.
“God’s manyfold Wisdom can now be made known through the Church…”( Ephe 3:10)
Do you know Padre Pio?.. if not then try looking him up. I saw a movie with him the other night called “Padre Pio. Miracle Man”. Padre Pio was treated severely and unnecessarily harsh by certain clergymen from the RCC the whole of his life. In the end, according to this film a man says to padre Pio: “The Church has no need of people like you”.
A single tear flows from the eye of the old munk as he calmly replies: “I it is… I that need the Church”.
Where is the humility today? the shepherds staff has been broken into two and later into splinters. there is no love. no obedience. the division crucifies the Lord again and again. Did He not tell us the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth( 1 Tim 3:15). Did He not give the Shepherd staff to Peter? Brother, where is your Peter? Who decided the Canon to you.When did the Holy Spirit leave the Church?coz the Spirit can not tolerate lies. What happend then to the promises of Christ …?
Faith is not about feelings only, but about Truth. Mediate on the OT then if you believe in it: Howcome the Lord back then guided His covenant people and stayed with them through priests and prophets inspite of their silliness …if not He would do so even more in the new covenant. ? Its all there in the Word… you just must see it all.
But today many people have made themselves kings and popes and even gods… sitting on thrones, having sould out the blood of Christ and denied the Mother.
Certainly you are as dear to the Lord as anyone of us. But He has prepared a whole feast for you and a good brother will always urge you to satiate yourself on all of it… he loves you to much to keep silent.
Praised be the Lord forever
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Amen. I was moved by your testimony that I will paste this in my daily meditation guide. You touched us with the fire of the Holy Spirit. Amen again.
 
newbie1234 said:
Jesus quoted them often. That is good enough for me.
He also fulfilled them prophetically.
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Do you realize what you just said?

Without the Catholic Church who made the canon, the OT you are now reading could only be read if you are Jewish, even Luther who deleted some of them would have been left out.
 
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