Saints in Heaven praying for us?

[SPOKENWORD]

arieh0310:

Well, no He isn’t. But then again, He is God and can’t imagine Him needing intercession from anyone other than His Father. If you read Luke 9 carefully you will notice that Christ isn’t just shooting the breeze with these dead guys, He is discussing His passion, our plan of salvation.

One thing to keep in mind is that praying does not have to involve worship. When I pray to God it involves an aspect of worship, but when I have prayed to Saints I am simply asking for them to interceed on my behalf.

Yup, you got it. Just like when I pray for my brothers and sisters here on earth the prayer is efficacious not because of my power but because of God’s. The Holy Spirit has lead me at times to pray for someone, then when I talk to that person later I find out that in fact they were going through tough times and were in need of prayer (any Spirit-filled pentacostal should know exactly what I am talking about).

Well, we showed you that in Rev 5:8 and 8:5, but you interpret those differently. I happen to think when Hebews 12 talks about us being surrouned by a “cloud of witnesses” that that is a striking example of Saints watching over and interceeding for us. You also have Christ in Matthew 18:10 stating very clearly that little children have guardian angels “who always see the face of my Father who is in heaven”. There are also the deuterocannonical books (like Maccabees and Tobit) that very clearly talk about prayers to the dead, and don’t forget the ancient Jewish practice of the Mourner Kaddish.

And, if you would like, we could start quoting the Early Church Fathers (from the first and second century on) where they clearly teach that we should pray for everyone (on both sides of death). Praying to the Saints is an ancient Christian practice that is (even today) done by over 75% of the world’s Christians. Do you think that Christ’s Church fell into error in the second century and no one noticed? (there aren’t any examples of early Christians objecting to praying to the saints in heaven).

The transfiguration was a vision given to the apostles that revealed to them who Jesus Christ was.It was Gods voice.Here we see Gods Will in Christ,s life and that was to fullfill Gods law and the Word of the Prophets.In Rev5 & 8 I also showed you that presenting the prayers of the earthly saints and doing the actual praying are two different things but you did not see it that way.The cloud of witness,s were the OT Saints that can be an example of encouragement for us to run the race.Now if you want to talk about witnesses then we can bring in the Holy Angels. They are the messengers that God uses as witnesses. God Bless

 

[JimO]

SPOKENWORD:

OKAY, Back to the topic subject at hand. Does anyone here believe that the Saints in heaven are omnipresent as God is ?Can anyone give me an example of Jesus Christ praying to anyone other than His Father? Also Why would the Saints in heaven be praying for us when they have access into the throne room? God Bless

Spoken,

The Church does not teach that the Saints are omnipresent and Jesus didn’t pray for intercession because He is God and has a unique intimacy with the Father. Regarding why the Saints would pray for us if they have access to the throne room, well, prayer is communication with God. Those in heaven communicate with God even more directly than we do because of their access.

However, your question touches on a larger issue at many levels. If one believes that the Bible (minus the books missing from your Bible - the seven books of what Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha) is the sole source of revealed truth and that everything has to be explicitly revealed in Scripture, then I can see where one would not understand the concept of the Communion of Saints. This concept, like all other Church teachings having their basis in Sacred Tradition, does not contradict Scripture, but deals with matters on which Scripture is silent or that are not fully developed in Scripture. The concept of the Trinity falls in this same category. You could just as easily ask a Catholic, “Show me in Scripture where the Trinity is described as ‘three Divine Persons in One God’ and not simply three separate Divine Beings.”

I’m not trying to get off topic, but this is critical to understanding why we cannot resolve these specific issues. I guess the bottom line is that if you do not recognize Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church on matters like this, then we’re really talking past one another.

This touches on another matter you brought up. The problem with not having the central teaching authority of the Church is that everyone relies on their own interpretation of Scripture passages. I know that you believe the Holy Spirit is the interpreter and you are simply the student, but, when you look at the incredible variations in interpretation of key Scripture passages that result in mutually exclusive theological positions, then either the Holy Spirit is inconsistent (impossible) or fallen humans are not listening very well.

 

[JimO]

SPOKENWORD:

In Rev5 & 8 I also showed you that **presenting **the prayers of the earthly saints and doing the actual praying are two different things but you did not see it that way.

Here is an example of interpretation. Unless one is a scholar in ancient Greek and Hebrew, one cannot say for sure whether, for example, the English word used in the passage means “presenting”, “offering”, “communicating” or “praying”. In my Bible, the “prayers of the Saints” are contained in “vessels”. Well, do you believe that the prayers of the saints are literally contained in some kind of physical vessels? If not, then you are, in fact, making an interpretation of a Scripture passage. Whether it is your own interpretation, an interpretation of a pastor/theologian/evangelist/teacher you have encountered, or a direct revelation to you from the Holy Spirit, I can’t say. But, the fact remains that others interpret this passage differently and they believe their sources are as authoritative as you believe yours to be. I’m not even trying to say that you are wrong, but simply pointing out that the problem in addressing this type of question is much deeper than simply giving you a Scripture reference to back up the Catholic teaching on this.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

JimO:

Spoken,

The Church does not teach that the Saints are omnipresent and Jesus didn’t pray for intercession because He is God and has a unique intimacy with the Father. Regarding why the Saints would pray for us if they have access to the throne room, well, prayer is communication with God. Those in heaven communicate with God even more directly than we do because of their access.

However, your question touches on a larger issue at many levels. If one believes that the Bible (minus the books missing from your Bible - the seven books of what Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha) is the sole source of revealed truth and that everything has to be explicitly revealed in Scripture, then I can see where one would not understand the concept of the Communion of Saints. This concept, like all other Church teachings having their basis in Sacred Tradition, does not contradict Scripture, but deals with matters on which Scripture is silent or that are not fully developed in Scripture. The concept of the Trinity falls in this same category. You could just as easily ask a Catholic, “Show me in Scripture where the Trinity is described as ‘three Divine Persons in One God’ and not simply three separate Divine Beings.”

I’m not trying to get off topic, but this is critical to understanding why we cannot resolve these specific issues. I guess the bottom line is that if you do not recognize Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church on matters like this, then we’re really talking past one another.

This touches on another matter you brought up. The problem with not having the central teaching authority of the Church is that everyone relies on their own interpretation of Scripture passages. I know that you believe the Holy Spirit is the interpreter and you are simply the student, but, when you look at the incredible variations in interpretation of key Scripture passages that result in mutually exclusive theological positions, then either the Holy Spirit is inconsistent (impossible) or fallen humans are not listening very well.

So when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemene He wasn,t asking God to interceed? Or How about when He was praying to the Father that the Church would be one. We clearly see evidence of the Trinity at the baptism of Jesus Christ being three forms of God.Oh those mysteries.!! We will never have all the answers will we? God Bless

 

[JimO]

SPOKENWORD:

So when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemene He wasn,t asking God to interceed? Or How about when He was praying to the Father that the Church would be one.

I didn’t mean that Jesus didn’t pray to the Father, I simply answered your question regarding whether Jesus prayed to deceased Saints and acknowledged that He did not.

SPOKENWORD:

We clearly see evidence of the Trinity at the baptism of Jesus Christ being three forms of God.Oh those mysteries.!! We will never have all the answers will we? God Bless

You’re side-stepping my point. We see the Father, we see Jesus and we see the Holy Spirit - three entities, or as many atheists argue - three Gods. Nowhere in Scripture does it explicitly say that there are three distinct Persons in one God. In fact, atheists claim that the Bible contradicts itself because God is portrayed as one God and yet there are three entities discussed in Scripture. It was the Church, through its teaching authority (inspired by the same Holy Spirit that inspired the authors of Scripture), that took what was in Scripture and explained the concept of the Trinity. The same is true for the Communion of Saints.

If one does not recognize the teaching authority of the Church, then one cannot explain how the Communion of Saints fits with Scripture. Neither, I might add, can one explain how the Trinity fits with Scripture. Oh those blessed mysteries!!

 

[SPOKENWORD]

JimO:

I didn’t mean that Jesus didn’t pray to the Father, I simply answered your question regarding whether Jesus prayed to deceased Saints and acknowledged that He did not.

You’re side-stepping my point. We see the Father, we see Jesus and we see the Holy Spirit - three entities, or as many atheists argue - three Gods. Nowhere in Scripture does it explicitly say that there are three distinct Persons in one God. In fact, atheists claim that the Bible contradicts itself because God is portrayed as one God and yet there are three entities discussed in Scripture. It was the Church, through its teaching authority (inspired by the same Holy Spirit that inspired the authors of Scripture), that took what was in Scripture and explained the concept of the Trinity. The same is true for the Communion of Saints.

If one does not recognize the teaching authority of the Church, then one cannot explain how the Communion of Saints fits with Scripture. Neither, I might add, can one explain how the Trinity fits with Scripture. Oh those blessed mysteries!!

It,s not possible for Athiests to see or understand things of God.They cannot see the Truth. As for the Trinity. Thats why they are called Mysteries. Ill answer when I see you in the Kingdom.Jim look for me .Ill be wearing a white robe. God Bless

 

[JimO]

SPOKENWORD:

It,s not possible for Athiests to see or understand things of God.They cannot see the Truth. As for the Trinity. Thats why they are called Mysteries. Ill answer when I see you in the Kingdom.Jim look for me .Ill be wearing a white robe. God Bless

I look forward to it and thank you for the kind words. You might be hard to find in the crowd, though, because we’ll all be in white robes.

Now, if you are going to open a thread questioning a teaching of the Catholic Church on a Catholic forum, you have an obligation to address the points made and not defer until we see each other in heaven. It is true that all will be answered there - and some might not like the answers - but, by starting a thread like this, you have an obligation to either provide a counter point or concede the point. You’ve done neither in response to the very good points made in response to your thread.

 

[mercygate]

JimO:

I didn’t mean that Jesus didn’t pray to the Father, I simply answered your question regarding whether Jesus prayed to deceased Saints and acknowledged that He did not.

Well, wasn’t he having a nice chat with Moses and Elijah on Mount Tabor at the Transfiguration? You might argue that Elijah had not died, but Moses certainly had (Deuteronomy 34).

 

[SPOKENWORD]

JimO:

Here is an example of interpretation. Unless one is a scholar in ancient Greek and Hebrew, one cannot say for sure whether, for example, the English word used in the passage means “presenting”, “offering”, “communicating” or “praying”. In my Bible, the “prayers of the Saints” are contained in “vessels”. Well, do you believe that the prayers of the saints are literally contained in some kind of physical vessels? If not, then you are, in fact, making an interpretation of a Scripture passage. Whether it is your own interpretation, an interpretation of a pastor/theologian/evangelist/teacher you have encountered, or a direct revelation to you from the Holy Spirit, I can’t say. But, the fact remains that others interpret this passage differently and they believe their sources are as authoritative as you believe yours to be. I’m not even trying to say that you are wrong, but simply pointing out that the problem in addressing this type of question is much deeper than simply giving you a Scripture reference to back up the Catholic teaching on this.

Yes I do believe that the prayers collected are put into vessels.I also understand we are also seeing in the supernatural (spiritual realm).I believe it because its words are God breathed.I believe John in his vision is giving us a natural look into what,s happening in the Kingdom of God. God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

The Mystery of the Trinity is not available to the human mind. It,s all based on our faith only. Like I said look for the white robe. God Bless

 

[JimO]

SPOKENWORD:

Yes I do believe that the prayers collected are put into vessels.I also understand we are also seeing in the supernatural (spiritual realm).I believe it because its words are God breathed.I believe John in his vision is giving us a natural look into what,s happening in the Kingdom of God. God Bless

Which, again, is an interpretation. Even the decision to take the text literally (physically collecting prayers - which are not physical items - into a physical vessel) is an interpretation. Blessings

 

[SPOKENWORD]

JimO:

Which, again, is an interpretation. Even the decision to take the text literally (physically collecting prayers - which are not physical items - into a physical vessel) is an interpretation. Blessings

Okay,its an interpretation.So does the Holy Spirit only teach the elect?. God Bless

 

[JimO]

SPOKENWORD:

The Mystery of the Trinity is not available to the human mind. It,s all based on our faith only.

Absolutely, we agree on this point. But, in order to take something on faith, it has to be stated as a truth somewhere. Many things that we take on faith are described to us in Scripture. Jesus rose from the dead. The disciples received the gift of tongues on Pentecost to speak to thousands. Jesus ascended into heaven. We know that they did happen because Scripture says they happened. How they happened is a matter of faith because we don’t know how God did these things. The mystery of the Trinity and the Communion of Saints are different. The descriptions of these mysteries are not included in Scripture. Under the influence of the Holy Spirit, the teaching authority of the Church has provided descriptions of these mysteries, not to understand them, but to believe them.

If you say that you believe the in the doctrine of the Trinity without accepting the teaching authority of the Church, then you are believing something that is not in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there are three Divine Persons in One God. In fact, with only the Bible to rely on, you are left with a contradiction. In the Old Testament there is one God, Yahweh. In the New Testament there is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nowhere are the three Persons shown as One. In fact, at Jesus’ baptism, they are revealed separately, which would lead one to believe that even if they are united in purpose, there are not One in Being. Without the teaching authority of the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, these types of apparent contradictions are a problem.

 

[Pax]

SPOKENWORD:

Okay,its an interpretation.So does the Holy Spirit only teach the elect?. God Bless

Great question. It seems to me that the Holy Spirit teaches more than just the elect. Afterall, those that fall from grace and commit apostasy were taught by the Holy Spirit. In the Book of Hebrews 10:29 it says, “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?” It would seem that outraging the Spirit of grace might say something about the Holy Spirit’s prior interactions with those that lose their salvation.

 

[JimO]

SPOKENWORD:

Okay,its an interpretation.So does the Holy Spirit only teach the elect?. God Bless

I’m not sure who you mean by the elect, but I know one thing that is an absolute fact, the Holy Spirit will not teach falsehood, thus, when two parties disagree on an important matter of faith and both claim to be listening to the Holy Spirit, one (or both) of the parties is either not hearing the Holy Spirit clearly or is listening to one clothed as an angel of light.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

JimO:

Absolutely, we agree on this point. But, in order to take something on faith, it has to be stated as a truth somewhere. Many things that we take on faith are described to us in Scripture. Jesus rose from the dead. The disciples received the gift of tongues on Pentecost to speak to thousands. Jesus ascended into heaven. We know that they did happen because Scripture says they happened. How they happened is a matter of faith because we don’t know how God did these things. The mystery of the Trinity and the Communion of Saints are different. The descriptions of these mysteries are not included in Scripture. Under the influence of the Holy Spirit, the teaching authority of the Church has provided descriptions of these mysteries, not to understand them, but to believe them.

If you say that you believe the in the doctrine of the Trinity without accepting the teaching authority of the Church, then you are believing something that is not in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that there are three Divine Persons in One God. In fact, with only the Bible to rely on, you are left with a contradiction. In the Old Testament there is one God, Yahweh. In the New Testament there is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nowhere are the three Persons shown as One. In fact, at Jesus’ baptism, they are revealed separately, which would lead one to believe that even if they are united in purpose, there are not One in Being. Without the teaching authority of the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, these types of apparent contradictions are a problem.

Sure it was understood that there was only one God but we can see inGenesis1;26 that God say US.,meaning Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This is the begginning of the revelation of the trinity. God does give wisdom and understanding to those who seek his will. God Bless

 

[Kay_Cee]

SPOKENWORD:

Sure it was understood that there was only one God but we can see inGenesis1;26 that God say US.,meaning Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This is the begginning of the revelation of the trinity. God does give wisdom and understanding to those who seek his will. God Bless

The use of the plural “Us” in Genesis can be used as an argument for polytheism. The use of “Us” and “We” does not show that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One in Being.

Where does scripture say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One in Being?

 

[VociMike]

SPOKENWORD:

OKAY, Back to the topic subject at hand. Does anyone here believe that the Saints in heaven are omnipresent as God is ?Can anyone give me an example of Jesus Christ praying to anyone other than His Father? Also Why would the Saints in heaven be praying for us when they have access into the throne room? God Bless

Were there any saints in heaven when Jesus was on earth? I don’t think so.

As to having access to the throne room, the saints in heaven are much, much closer to God than that. They are partaking in the divine nature itself. But what does that have to do with praying for those on earth?

 

[Ignatius]

SPOKENWORD:

I do see the Holy Angels and the heavenly Saints collecting these prayers(Rev 8;3-4 and Rev 5;8) which come from earthly saints being presented.

What makes you think it is the earthly saints? There are far more heavenly saints. Proove me wrong.

May the peace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[MariaG]

Spokenword,

We have shown you Scripture that the Holy Spirit tells us applies to the Saints in heaven praying for us.

We can also show the very Early Church writings that confirm that the Holy Spirit revealed this truth to the Catholic Church. We can then march down in history and show you where this belief was then REMOVED from non Catholic Christians beliefs.

From CA Library The Intercession of Saints

Cyprian of Carthage

“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (*Letters *56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

The early church in writings shows that the communion of Saints in the Catholic understanding was recorded as early as 80AD. To no longer ask the saints in heaven to pray for us is to go against those who were taught by the apostles themselves.

I pray that you will hear the Holy Spirit revealing these truths to you. Because truth it is.

God Bless,
Maria