Salvation by works? Amen!

[guanophore]

De Maria:

No doubt. But basis did God establish to decide whether we merit heaven?

Rev 7:14-17
hey have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 For this reason they are before the throne of God,
and worship him day and night within his temple,
and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them.
16 They will hunger no more, and thirst no more;
the sun will not strike them,
nor any scorching heat;
17 for the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of the water of life,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Those who are not washed in the blood cannot enter.
De Maria:

Gosh? I didn’t think a Catholic would have to learn this lesson. But I guess I was wrong. Lets see, what does St. Paul mean by reckons righteousness apart from works?

We know that for St. Paul, faith includes works:
Hebrews 11 4 By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice
7 By faith Noe, … framed the ark for the saving of his house,
8 By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

So, obviously, St. Paul believes that Abraham worked.

If you think that Catholics don’t have a lot to learn, then you have not spent much time teaching catechism.

We don’t know that Paul wrote Hebrews, so we can’t make that assumption. However, for the sake of discussion, I will say accept the premise that for Paul, faith includes works. I have never proposed that the saved should not work. I have said that work is not the basis of their state of grace. The basis is the blood of Christ, shed for us on the cross.

 

[maylebkc]

Paul makes it clear in the scriptures that we are saved by Grace alone. I see works as obedience to Christ. He commands us to produce fruit as mentioned in many of the other posters threads. I think Dietrich Bonhoffer, puts salvation in a great way.

"Does not obedience follow faith as good fruit grows on a good tree? First, faith, then obedience. If by that we mean that it is faith which justifies, and not the act of obedience, all well and good, for that is the essential and unexceptional presupposition of all that follows. if however, we make a chronological distinction between faith and obedience, and make obedience subsequent to faith, we are divorcing the one from the other 0and then we get the practical question, when must obedience begin? Obedience remains separated from faith. From the point of view of justification it is necessary thus to separate them, but we must never lose sight of their essential unity.

***For faith is only real when there is obedience, never with out it, and faith only becomes faith in the act of obedience".

Let me know what you think.

 

[guanophore]

Paul makes it clear in the scriptures that we are saved by Grace alone.

No, he does not. In Paul’s writing, as that of the rest of the Apostles, grace is NEVER alone.

I see works as obedience to Christ. He commands us to produce fruit as mentioned in many of the other posters threads. I think Dietrich Bonhoffer, puts salvation in a great way.

"Does not obedience follow faith as good fruit grows on a good tree? First, faith, then obedience. If by that we mean that it is faith which justifies, and not the act of obedience, all well and good, for that is the essential and unexceptional presupposition of all that follows. if however, we make a chronological distinction between faith and obedience, and make obedience subsequent to faith, we are divorcing the one from the other 0and then we get the practical question, when must obedience begin? Obedience remains separated from faith. From the point of view of justification it is necessary thus to separate them, but we must never lose sight of their essential unity.

***For faith is only real when there is obedience, never with out it, and faith only becomes faith in the act of obedience".

Let me know what you think.

I think that means NONE of them are “alone”.

Welcome to CAF.

 

[maylebkc]

Hold on heres my point I should have went into more detail. Paul tells us that we are saved by faith alone.

Ephesians 2:8 says For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.

Paul is saying that we can not gain salvation through our works. Galatians 2:21 says:I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

The Grace is what saves us. We are saved by Grace through faith proven by the way you live. Our faith is only made real when we are doing the works of the lord.

---

Now, I think that you misinterpreted what I am saying by “Grace ALONE” the Grace is what is saving us not the works.

I think too many people go about thinking that being a good person because being a good person is a rule. In reality, we go about our ways of doing good because we love God and we do not want to hurt him. People who just follow the rules are not madly in love with Jesus Christ. The pharisees in the bible did that. These people who just follow rules do these things because they are afraid they are going to hell, or they want to be a good person. Thats about them and not God.

Love is not enough. “…Only the ones who do the will of my father” will get into heaven. John 15:10 gives the response of love: If you love me then you will keep my commandments. If we say we have faith and we do not keep the commandments then we are liars.

It is late and my thoughts are jumbled but i hope this clarifies my point. that we are saved by Grace, and our works are display of our faith in God.

 

[guanophore]

Hold on heres my point I should have went into more detail. Paul tells us that we are saved by faith alone.

No. There is only one place in scripture where the words “faith alone” appear next to one another, and it is nothing Paul wrote.

Ephesians 2:8 says For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.

Paul is saying that we can not gain salvation through our works. Galatians 2:21 says:I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.

The Grace is what saves us. We are saved by Grace through faith proven by the way you live. Our faith is only made real when we are doing the works of the lord.

Then it is not alone, is it?

Now, I think that you misinterpreted what I am saying by “Grace ALONE” the Grace is what is saving us not the works.

They are not separated.

I think too many people go about thinking that being a good person because being a good person is a rule. In reality, we go about our ways of doing good because we love God and we do not want to hurt him. People who just follow the rules are not madly in love with Jesus Christ. The pharisees in the bible did that. These people who just follow rules do these things because they are afraid they are going to hell, or they want to be a good person. Thats about them and not God.

True.

Love is not enough. “…Only the ones who do the will of my father” will get into heaven. John 15:10 gives the response of love: If you love me then you will keep my commandments. If we say we have faith and we do not keep the commandments then we are liars.

Love is enough, because love is the fulfilling of the Law. If we love Him, we will do His will.

It is late and my thoughts are jumbled but i hope this clarifies my point. that we are saved by Grace, and our works are display of our faith in God.

Yes, I understand.

 

[maylebkc]

This is true Catholic teaching. I pulled it strait from a Homily I heard of faith and works. If you can find it, it is on www.thereasonforourhope.com.

 

[BRB]

Love is enough, because love is the fulfilling of the Law. If we love Him, we will do His will.

.

Quano, you are a superb teacher

But, … you say love is enough. Enough by itself ?, Love ALONE ?

I doubt you meant to imply this. You teach us … that its never Grace Alone, or Faith Alone, or Works Alone.

Then, next you say “If we love him, we will do His will”. Just as the night follows the day. Experience teaches us otherwise. Sometimes when we feel most devoted, most charitable, most inspired, most close to God … is the very time we can suddenly be most disobedient.

We will never truly love unconditionally like God does. Because the best of us will fall 7 X’s in a day. Does that mean we don’t have Enough love ? — since we periodically fail to do HIS WILL.

I think if we ever went a full day w/o some err … we would really succumb to Religious Pride.

God ALONE is good, just, loving, merciful, gracious, forgiving, etc. Thats what Christ taught us … and why Thomas a Kempis teaches we need to Imitate Christ - ALONE.

 

[De_Maria]

Do you somehow imagine this is possible without grace?

No. But answer the question, by what basis does God decide whether we are saved?

I’ll give you a hint.
Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

Humans can spin all day in the wind, yet without grace it will avail nothing.

You accuse me of accusing you of grace alone. Then you deny that you accused me of Pelagianism. What is this you are doing now if not exxagerating my arguments also known as building a strawman.

When have I said that we could do anything without grace?

Jesus modeled the incarnational principle. He does intend for us to be saved in and through our flesh. However, it is only His flesh and blood that can save. Our flesh can only be redeemed when joined with His,.

Titus 3:3-8
“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6 This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

In baptism, we join with Him in His death and resurrection. Our bodies become united with His Body. It is His grace that does this. His lovingkindness is the basis.

And Baptism is a work.

Because that would give us cause for boasting.

Only if one is ignorant enough to ignore the grace which God gave us.

No, I said that the manner in which you are trying to present your point is, in my opinion, not conducive to the evangelistic task at hand. Many Protestants already wrongly think that Catholicism is a 'works based salvation" (as if any such thing could exist).

It is a works based salvation, by the grace of God. (So is faith alone, although it is a flawed understanding of God’s plan of salvation.) But it is also a grace based salvation. The thing to remember is that God, BY HIS GRACE, wills that we work out our salvation.

They have a misunderstanding of the place of works in God’s plan of salvation. This method you are using to explain it is counterproductive.

In your opinion. I believe your way of explaining it confuses Catholics and ill prepares converts for true Catholic doctrine.

Contributing to misunderstanding of others in not a loving act.

So you should stop.

We are to give account of the hope that is within us in a loving manner. It is not about giving offense, it is about presenting ourselves in love. It is not an act of charity to confirm our brothers in error.

That is why I am emphasizing this on this forum. Too many Catholic apologists are watering down Catholic doctrine to appease Protestants who frequently don’t care one way or the other, they just hate the Catholic Church.

Yes.

But there is more than one basis and when you decide to face the facts and answer the question you have continually ignored you will have NO CHOICE but to admit the truth:

What is the basis which God established to judge whether we are saved?

Whether we are clothed in white. If we are not wearing the appropriate garment, we will be thrown out of the wedding.

Very funny. But you are simply avoiding the question. What are you afraid of? The truth?

Thank you for this judgement.

I must say, your apologetic method leaves something to be desired.

Yeah, I know. That still leaves you watering down Catholic doctrine and thats not a nice thing.

Back to the question. A straight answer will do. What basis did God establish to judge your soul worthy of heaven?

OK, I know, you’re going to come up with another cute answer that avoids the question. So, I’ll help you out. The answer is obvious. It is works.

Therefore, GOD established WORKS as a basis for our salvation.

Each must do what is right in his own eyes. If you wish to work for that which God gives for free, then this is between you and your Creator.

God gives me the grace to work. Then He expects me to use it.

And we can write the inverse about you. If you don’t appreciate what God provides you enough to work for it, then that is between you and God.

“To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood…” Rev 1:5-6

Those who have been freed from sin by His blood.

**3 Blessed is he, that readeth and heareth the words of this prophecy; and keepeth those things which are written in it; for the time is at hand. **

You should have read two verses prior.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I have never met anyone, devout Catholic or devout Protestant, in their right mind, who believes they are “working their way to salvation.”
This is the kind of uninformed view that gives ammunition to fundamentalists.

Have you got anything besides opinion to back up your statement?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Ok … I just came across this one now.

Guano … are you watering down Catholic doctrine to appease MD & Sandman — perhaps.

Seriously, Pax and Guano are usually right-on target.
Assume they are right until proven otherwise.

Usually. But not always. In this one, they are wrong.

Unless you can help them. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[onenow1]

Hi,
I believe the Lord said I have chosen you, you have not chosen me.

Peace, OneNow1,

 

[guanophore]

No. But answer the question, by what basis does God decide whether we are saved?

I’ll give you a hint.
Matthew 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

It seems you are mixing up salvation with punishment and rewards. Each man will be rendered according to his works, but this is not the basis of salvation. This is the judgement of the saved and unsaved.

A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Therefore, we know that all those who do good works are good trees.

You accuse me of accusing you of grace alone.

Yes.

Then you deny that you accused me of Pelagianism.

No.

What is this you are doing now if not exxagerating my arguments also known as building a strawman.

I am pointing out that salvation is based solely upon grace, and not any works of our own, lest we have cause for boasting.

When have I said that we could do anything without grace?

Just checking!

And Baptism is a work.

I agree.

Only if one is ignorant enough to ignore the grace which God gave us.

I am sorry to say that there are a great many ignorant Christians, who believe that we can “work” our way into heaven.

It is a works based salvation, by the grace of God.

NO.

(So is faith alone, although it is a flawed understanding of God’s plan of salvation.)

Yes.

But it is also a grace based salvation. The thing to remember is that God, BY HIS GRACE, wills that we work out our salvation.

Yes. Grace is the basis, and we work “out” what is working in us by His grace. Work and faith are inseparably linked to that which is the foundation - grace.

In your opinion. I believe your way of explaining it confuses Catholics and ill prepares converts for true Catholic doctrine.

.

Ok.

So you should stop.

Not likely.

That is why I am emphasizing this on this forum. Too many Catholic apologists are watering down Catholic doctrine to appease Protestants who frequently don’t care one way or the other, they just hate the Catholic Church.

What you have presented is contrary to Catholic doctrine, water or no water.

But there is more than one basis and when you decide to face the facts and answer the question you have continually ignored you will have NO CHOICE but to admit the truth:

What is the basis which God established to judge whether we are saved?

Very funny. But you are simply avoiding the question. What are you afraid of? The truth?

Yeah, I know. That still leaves you watering down Catholic doctrine and thats not a nice thing.

You certainly seem to have some hostility about this.

“he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy…” Titus 3:5

Back to the question. A straight answer will do. What basis did God establish to judge your soul worthy of heaven?

Grace. It is only the blood of Christ, which cleanses us, that makes us worthy to stand in His presence.

OK, I know, you’re going to come up with another cute answer that avoids the question. So, I’ll help you out. The answer is obvious. It is works.

Therefore, GOD established WORKS as a basis for our salvation.

If it pleases you to work for what God has freely given as a gift, it is certainly your perogative.

God gives me the grace to work. Then He expects me to use it.

And we can write the inverse about you. If you don’t appreciate what God provides you enough to work for it, then that is between you and God.

To those whom much is given, much is required.

3 Blessed is he, that readeth and heareth the words of this prophecy; and keepeth those things which are written in it; for the time is at hand.

You should have read two verses prior.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Living in a state of grace does not preclude the duty to engage in the good works which God has prepared for us. Those who are in a state of grace will reflect this state in their deeds, and by their deeds, they will be rewarded or punished on the Last Day.

 

[De_Maria]

It seems you are mixing up salvation with punishment and rewards. Each man will be rendered according to his works, but this is not the basis of salvation. This is the judgement of the saved and unsaved.

Judgement of the saved and unsaved? Now you sound like a Protestant? Whats going on?

A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Therefore, we know that all those who do good works are good trees.

That is absolutely false. That is why we have the Sacrament of Penance. Because we recognize our fallible nature. Our inclination to sin.

I am pointing out that salvation is based solely upon grace, and not any works of our own, lest we have cause for boasting.

In other words, monergism. Salvation based solely upon grace is the same as salvation by grace alone. That is a heresy.

I am sorry to say that there are a great many ignorant Christians, who believe that we can “work” our way into heaven.

By the grace of God we can and should.

NO.

Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works.

7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: *

8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity,* wrath and indignation. *

9* **Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, **of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.

Yes. Grace is the basis, and we work “out” what is working in us by His grace. Work and faith are inseparably linked to that which is the foundation - grace.

Therefore work and faith are also basis of our salvation.

Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please God*. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.*

What you have presented is contrary to Catholic doctrine, water or no water.

So you claim. But you have nothing but opinion behind your statements.

You certainly seem to have some hostility about this.

No. Just straightforward. Watering down Catholic doctrine is not a little thing. Personally I believe “the Truth will set you free.” If your Protestants can’t accept the Truth, it is their problem. We aren’t supposed to change it.

“he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy…” Titus 3:5

Thats too funny! Leaving out the gist of the verse?

5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us,** by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; **

In other words, by a work.

Grace. It is only the blood of Christ, which cleanses us, that makes us worthy to stand in His presence.

True. But only those of us who work for it.

If it pleases you to work for what God has freely given as a gift, it is certainly your perogative.

It is God’s will.

]quote] To those whom much is given, much is required.

Exactly!!! You have received the grace to work for your salvation. It is required.

Living in a state of grace does not preclude the duty to engage in the good works which God has prepared for us. Those who are in a state of grace will reflect this state in their deeds, and by their deeds, they will be rewarded or punished on the Last Day.

It takes good works to arrive at a state of grace.
It tatkes good works to maintain a state of grace.

That is according to God’s will.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[BRB]

In this one, they are wrong.

Unless you can help them. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it.

John 3:16 is a good starting place.

BELIEF in Christ is ‘mental’ work of sorts … a ‘Working’ of Faith . It’s the only work God will accept from one [or parents/godparents] at the time of first justification.

Cradle Catholics intuitively know they had no faith [or work] @ their baptism. Yet they were justified and graced by Christ … because of faith of their parents, and faith & work of priest. Still, it is Christ who baptises with H.S. Based upon our faith & actions, and HIS Work on Cross.

Is that first parental faith for an infant sufficient to get them to the Kingdom ? The Church teaches that Luther’s ‘faith alone’ and rejection of works as taught by James … is err.

Later, a child’s own faith in Christ must be voiced at Confirmation, confession of all Mortal sins made, and a life befitting of their high calling in Christ must be in evidence.

So … our WORKmanship for Christ always follows our faith. Not faith alone or works alone. But faith FIRST, and those works enabled by H.S. are always Second.

 

[guanophore]

Judgement of the saved and unsaved? Now you sound like a Protestant? Whats going on?

You are asserting that the “basis” of what happens in the judgement is our works. This is not synonomous with how we get to be in a state of grace. We can only be in a state of grace by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. Once we are in that state, we are able to merit other graces by our actions.

That is absolutely false.

Well, you will have to take that one up with our Lord, after you have finished working your way into heaven.

Matt 7:16-20
16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.

That is why we have the Sacrament of Penance.  Because we recognize our fallible nature.  Our inclination to sin.

Penance is for the person who is saved, so they can be restored to right standing with God, and return to the state of grace. Persons who are “bad trees” don’t use this sacrament.

In other words, monergism.  Salvation based solely upon grace is the same as salvation by grace alone.  That is a heresy.

No. The fact that our salvation is based solely upon grace is not equivalent to “salvation by grace alone”. I agree, the latter is heresy. It is incumbent upon us to cooperate with that grace in order to reach heaven. However, our entrance into eternal life is not based upon our cooperation, but His mercy.

By the grace of God we can and should.

Well, each person must do what is right in his own eyes. More power to you, I say!

Romans 2 ***6*** Who will render to every man according to his works.

7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: *

8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity,* wrath and indignation. *

9* **Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, **of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.

Therefore work and faith are also basis of our salvation.

Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please God*. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.*

So you claim. But you have nothing but opinion behind your statements.

Faith and works are essential elements of our salvation, and will be reflected in the judgement. However, neither faith or works can bring us into a state of grace before God. Only the blood of Christ can do that. We receive salvation. It is a free gift.

No. Just straightforward. Watering down Catholic doctrine is not a little thing. Personally I believe “the Truth will set you free.” If your Protestants can’t accept the Truth, it is their problem. We aren’t supposed to change it.

What you are proposing is not a “change” so much as miscommumication. You are right, it is a problem when Protestants can’t accept the Truth. However, why contribute to the problem by departing from the Aposotlic message?

Rom 6:22-23
22 But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Giving the impression that one must “work for” that which has already been given as a free gift is misleading.

Thats too funny! Leaving out the gist of the verse?

5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us,** by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; **

In other words, by a work.

True. But only those of us who work for it.

It is God’s will.

The recipient of baptism does not have to do any “work” in order to have their sins washed away by the laver of regeneration. The renovation is done by the Holy Ghost. If it required some “work” then infants would not qualify.
"guanophore:

To those whom much is given, much is required.

Exactly!!! You have received the grace to work for your salvation. It is required.

If you wish to require of yourself to work for the gift that others get for free, that is certainly your perogative.

It takes good works to arrive at a state of grace.

No.

It tatkes good works to maintain a state of grace.

That is according to God’s will.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I totally agree that maintaining a state of grace does take a great deal of work, and that it is our duty and privilege to do that work, by the grace of God. This is what it means when it says “work out your salvation”.

Not work “for” or work “on”.

 

[De_Maria]

All is not grace.

St. Therese and Dorothy Day believed it. As do I. Name one thing that isn’t grace.

Now, regarding His Formula: You surely admit the thief on cross was saved ? What good works did he perform in order to gain favor of Christ ?

At most, all we could say is Christ allowed his final agony After his Salvation event] to serve as Penance. But, when you think about it … did that thief even need to serve penance ?

Christ forgave him of ALL prior sins …base solely on his Faith in Jesus as his Messiah. Now Christ died before the thief died.
Yet Christ told him that he would see him in Paradise that very day.

So … IMO, Christ taught S.A. on this occasion. The thief could of changed his mind, and later denounced Christ before his death … like the other thief was doing. But, Christ told the gracious thief his future was SECURE in him.

Except, you’re wrong.

First of all, note that they both reproached Him at first.

Matthew 27
44 And the selfsame thing the thieves also, that were crucified with him, reproached him with.

*Luke 23:
*
39 And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

But one of them repented:

*40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation? **41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil.

*Thats a work.

Then the Good Thief defended Christ from the verbal attacks of the other criminal. That is a work of faith.

Then, the Good Thief expressed a longing to be with Christ in His Kingdom.

42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.

This is Baptism of Desire. Another work of faith.

At this point, works kick in, the Good Thief suffered beside Christ. He who suffers with Him is glorified with Him.

The Good Thief’s words are memorialized in Scripture, works of Gold:
1 Corinthians 3
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:

Any who are converted by these words are attributable to the Good Thief:
James 5
20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

And finally, we do have SA. Because, if the Master says you will be saved, who can deny it?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[BRB]

.

It takes good works to arrive at a state of grace.
It tatkes good works to maintain a state of grace.

Good work of Christ … enables us that FIRST state of grace.

Thereafter, your Good works in Christ will Maintain your graceful status.

 

[guanophore]

Too many Catholic apologists are watering down Catholic doctrine to appease Protestants who frequently don’t care one way or the other, they just hate the Catholic Church. Sincerely,

De Maria

I think if you take the time to read my posts, especially in threads of this topic, it will be clear to you that I am not making any effort to “appease Protestants”

Part of the reason they are so hateful is because they don’t understand what the church teaches. That is why it is so important to present it to them in a way that they can understand.

This is what was done in the documents of the council of Trent, which clarify that we are saved by grace, and that there is nothing that we, of ourselves, can do to bring ourselves into a state of justification before God. This is a point of agreement between Catholics and Protestants upon which more can be built.

 

[BRB]

Name one thing that isn’t grace.

And finally, we do have SA. Because, if the Master says you will be saved, who can deny it?

Plenty of things. Sin … but, grace will cover it.

We have SA as long as we remain steadfast with Christ. Christ knows our futures. He knew the thief was not going to reject him in that final hour before his death. So Christ confidently proclaimed that thief was headed for Paradise.

This was a personal revelation of Christ to that man. The Church teaches we can also be confident we are fully forgiven, but not to be assured of our final moment on earth …unless we too get a ‘personal revelation’ from Christ.

 

[mikeledes]

And Baptism is a work.

Baptism is a sacrament, a means ordained by God through which He grants His grace. It is not a meritorious work.

Therefore, GOD established WORKS as a basis for our salvation.

God gives me the grace to work. Then He expects me to use it.

The basis of our salvation is Christ. That’s why a person must die in a state of grace in order to enter heaven and being in a state of grace means being in a state of forgiveness and having spiritual life, both of which was won for us by the Cross of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael