scripture and homosexuality

[feetxxxl]

at the church i attend 400 plus congreation mostly gay…couples do marry.

its interesting all this concern about sex outside of marriage…homosexuals are struggling mightily for the state to recognize their marriages. the majority of churches refuse to marry them.

no one can show how or where scripture has declared hmosexuality a sin…paul saying that those things of the sin nature are obvious…why isnt the sin of homosexuality?

could this level of justice be responsible for the numbers leaving the church and why the children of the churched are not staying?.

we are definitely in a dark age.

 

[Stephen168]

there has been an over emphasis of the sex act. yet in committed one flesh human relationships frequency and satifaction of sexual intimacy is indicative of a good relationship. sexual intimacy being an act that expresses and affirms the devotion in the relationship. is that not the concern by marriage counselors(pastors and lay persons)

or commited homosexual couples who open their homes to abandoned and rejected children from heterosexual unions. homes that are equally nurturing and loving as heterosexual married couples. and the sexual intimacy expressed in those relationships enhances that loving, nurturing environment.

How does this reasoning preclude incest?

I would rather err on the side of love and compassion, than on the side of condemnation and fear…and hate…which we find so prevelant in** the church** when gay people are concerned…

Which church? I have never heard talk of fear or hate of any human person in my church.

“believe what you want, but scripture has never declared homosexuality a sin.”

Actually, since this is a Catholic forum, the OP is quite right in the above statement. The Catholic Church doesn’t declare homosexuality to be a sin. It recognizes homosexual orientation as morally neutral, in the same sense heterosexual orientation is morally neutral. However, homosexual activity, like heterosexual activity, outside of the sacrament of matrimony, is considered sinful.

The Church uses the term, ‘disordered’. All activity that is contrary to the manner in which God ordered His creation is an affront to Him.

 

[ralphinal]

This will be the third and final time that I ask this question. If I am not answered, I will assume it is because the OP understands the flaw in this course of thought.

Did you see that Jesus described marriage as one man to one woman? Did you also see sex outside of that union as being sinful? The answer to both should be yes. If so, homosexual sex is a sin.

Now, please refute this if you can. Did Jesus describe sex outside of marriage as a sin and did he describe marriage as one man and one woman?

 

[feetxxxl]

How does this reasoning preclude incest?

for those who have some kind fantasy about the benefits of sibling incest, here’s a way to get educated…psychpage.com/family/library/sib_abuse.htm

Which church? I have never heard talk of fear or hate of any human person in my church.

in my church that is 97% gay, gay couples marry.

this is interesting, when did the catholic church take on a neutral position on homosexuality? before or after john paul? where are these neutral writings. at this catholic forum, why out of all the respondents, are you the only one with this understanding?

 

[inJESUS]

"And likewise also the men, **leaving the natural **

use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." - Romans 1:27 what does this mean?

 

[Moireach]

GOD created ADAM AND EVE
NOT
ADAM AND STEVE

The men and Sodom and Gomorrah were homosexuals, that was one of the many sinful things they did.

Leviticus 18:22
“You must not have sexual relations with a man as you would with a woman. This is a hateful sin.”

Timothy 1:9-10
“We also know that the law is not made for good people but for those who are against the law and for those who refuse to follow it. It is for people who are against God and are singful, who are not holy and have no religion, who kill their fathers and mothers, who murder, who take part in sexual sins, who have sexual relations with people of the same sex.”

It’s disgusting, and completely against the bible’s teaching, there is no way you can justify it as its mentioned a few times in the people even as a ‘hateful sin’. If your gay you not a real Christian.

 

[inJESUS]

If your gay you not a real Christian.

:dts: we cannot judge the person . He could be better than you and me.

 

[inJESUS]

[SIGN]welcome Moireach[/SIGN]

 

[teancum79]

I think it is important to remember that we all have to deal with temptations. Its very normal (not good but normal) to look down on the sins that we don’t struggle with and condemn harshly those who commit those sins while seeking to justify the sins we struggle with.
I’ve not found any scripture that says that homosexuality is a worse sin than adultery. Christ offers forgiveness to all on condition of repentance. I hope those who now struggle with this temptation can open their hearts to the Lord and receive his grace.

 

[Elric]

GOD created ADAM AND EVE
NOT
ADAM AND STEVE

Thats an oldie.

The men and Sodom and Gomorrah were homosexuals, that was one of the many sinful things they did.

That certainly would have made maintaining the population difficult. There probably were homosexuals in the community, but you misread that particular passage.

Leviticus 18:22
“You must not have sexual relations with a man as you would with a woman. This is a hateful sin.”

Thats about the third different translation of that verse, although its still a mistranslation.

Timothy 1:9-10
“We also know that the law is not made for good people but for those who are against the law and for those who refuse to follow it. It is for people who are against God and are singful, who are not holy and have no religion, who kill their fathers and mothers, who murder, who take part in sexual sins, who have sexual relations with people of the same sex.”

Thats about the second different translation of that passage, again its still a mistranslation.

But these have already been discussed.

It’s disgusting, and completely against the bible’s teaching, there is no way you can justify it as its mentioned a few times in the people even as a ‘hateful sin’. If your gay you not a real Christian.

LoL, that is quite a statement.

I dont know if “disgusting” would be the way that I would describe it, I do find it distasteful (having no interest in being homosexual myself). For me, and Im guessing for yourself, it would certainly be an unnatural act. But you have not shown where it goes against the bibles teachings. Aside from the adultry part, there isnt a clear teaching against homosexuality.

 

[Moireach]

Yeh ok i withdraw the comment about not being a christian if your gay.
It just seems like such a wrong thing to do, surely they’ve got a conscious doing it if they’re christians…

About the men of Soddom and Gomorrah, no i didnt mean they were homosexuals, they did it though, like the practised homosexuality, its described as one of the evil things they did. (cant be bothered finding the verse just now)

And as for the translations, u realise there are different versions of the bible? I was quoting from the New Century Version. Otherwise known as the Youth Bible.

But you have not shown where it goes against the bibles teachings. Aside from the adultry part, there isnt a clear teaching against homosexuality.

What?? These verses ARE a clear teaching, the bible says it in more than one place, i mean ok for Leviticus they can argue that there are many old laws in that book that are no longer kept, but what about the other ones? If i was gay and i read that i would be very worried, and i would stop straight away and change my ways. I would not be stubborn and try to justify it or find a way around it.
It’s as if they are just picking and choosing which rules to keep and which to ignore or try to justify.
I’m a Protestant, and in my church our minister has said on numerous occasions that homosexuality is a sin. He knows the bible inside out, and from what I’ve read myself, I find it remarkable how people are so stubborn and don’t stick to what the bible teaches us.

 

[jay29]

:dts: we cannot judge the person . He could be better than you and me.

We can judge ACTIONS!

How can sexual relations between a man and woman be a DAMNABLE sin outside of marriage but it’s ok for homosexuals to engage in? It’s not ok and it is WRONG. There is so such thing as a homosexual “marriage” before 20 years ago. So it’s a man made notion, never supported by history or the bible. That is the bottom line.

 

[feetxxxl]

Originally Posted by feetxxxl
“And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” - Romans 1:27

what does this mean?

finally, an interest in the meaning of romans 1.

paul wrote romans 1 to show how human kind needed both under the law and those not under the law. man is without excuse for his sin…

romans1:20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

there is no one who is without sin…

romans3:10 "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,

and not only does man have no excuse but…

romans2:1you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

what are those same things. are they specific sins…i murder , you steal, he slanders.

paul gives four cases of conscious choices that gives us over to a spirit condition thru which we commit sin.

so it goes first the choice, then, being given over to a spirit, then the commission of a sin thru that spirit.

it is this spirit condition thru which all sin is committed. a particular spirit condition(bitterness, hatred etc)…but out of it one may steal, while another murders, or another is sexually immoral. same source different choices to sin.

these are the four transgressions that man is without excuse which romans 1:20 is referring to.

the first transgression is NOT THANKING GOD AND GLORIFYING HIM hence they were given over to futile thinking and foolish hearts.
explanation: we thank god and glorify him for some parts of our lives, but it is the part of our lives we dont thank him for that open ourselves to futile thinking.

the second transgression THEY EXCHANGED THE GLORY OF GOD FOR IMAGES OF MORTAL MAN and they were given over sinful desires to impurties for degrading their bodies.
explanation: we who were created in the immortal image of god have exchanged it for a mortal image, and in doing so became obsessed with all appetites and desires to satiate our mortal images.

the third transgressionTHEY EXCHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD FOR A LIE AND WORSHIPPED AND SERVED THE CREATED and were given over to shameful lusts.
explanation:we are created thru the spirit of christ. thru this essence when we affirm those relationships
given of the spirit, with the love that is god and they are of the fruit of the spirit: husband wife, sibling, life pardners, neighbor to neighbor(everyone). but when we are filled with lies about god, we serve other than god( mans culture traditions, powers and principalities), lusts take us over. we abandon the things given of the spirit, for serving our lusts, and in doing so serve powers and principalities for their purposes (“the battle isnt against flesh and blood but powers and principalities”). paul gives the example of abandoning heterosexual relationships given of the spirit and of the fruit of the spirit for shame based lusting of the same sex which is without relationship and without the fruit of the spirit…the due penalty … self loathing and self hatred.

the third reich(germany, whose national religion was lutheran and catholic and who was the first country to receive a bible written in their own language in the 1500’s was bolstered by worldwide antisemitism)…because of.the lies created about god enabled the lusts for world domination and ethnic purity that motivated abandoning any relationship with ones neighbor for premeditated worldwide genecide.

fourth transgression THEY DID NOT THINK IT WORTH WHILE TO RETAIN THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD and were given over to a depraved mind capable of all manner of evil.
explanation: by our own natural. any time we allow ourselves to make something else more worthwhile than the knowledge of god, we leave ourselves open to be filled with every kind of wickness.

and though we know that to do this wickedness brings death…we not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

so in romans 2, the things we are guilty of, that we accuse others, yet do the very same things are:

(1)NOT THANKING AND GLORIFYING GOD.

(2)EXCHANGING IMAGES OF GOD FOR IMAGES OF MORTAL MAN

(3)EXCHANGING THE TRUTH OF GOD FOR A LIE AND WORSHIPPING AND SERVING THE CREATED (ANYTHING OF MAN, POWERS AND PRINCIPALITIES)

(4)THINKING THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD NOT WORTHWHILE

 

[feetxxxl]

GOD created ADAM AND EVE
NOT
ADAM AND STEVE

The men and Sodom and Gomorrah were homosexuals, that was one of the many sinful things they did.

Leviticus 18:22
“You must not have sexual relations with a man as you would with a woman. This is a hateful sin.”

Timothy 1:9-10
“We also know that the law is not made for good people but for those who are against the law and for those who refuse to follow it. It is for people who are against God and are singful, who are not holy and have no religion, who kill their fathers and mothers, who murder, who take part in sexual sins, who have sexual relations with people of the same sex.”

It’s disgusting, and completely against the bible’s teaching, there is no way you can justify it as its mentioned a few times in the people even as a ‘hateful sin’. If your gay you not a real Christian.

consider reading what already has been discussed

 

[Elric]

Yeh ok i withdraw the comment about not being a christian if your gay.
It just seems like such a wrong thing to do, surely they’ve got a conscious doing it if they’re christians…

About the men of Soddom and Gomorrah, no i didnt mean they were homosexuals, they did it though, like the practised homosexuality, its described as one of the evil things they did. (cant be bothered finding the verse just now)

Have another read of that passage, its not actually about homosexuality. Its more to do with gang rape and humiliation as well as arguably beastiality (although the last one is weak).

And as for the translations, u realise there are different versions of the bible? I was quoting from the New Century Version. Otherwise known as the Youth Bible.

LoL, yes I am quite aware of that (which is why I pointed out how many different translations had been presented in this thread). Yours is still a mistranslation, as I also stated that has been discussed earlier in this thread.

What?? These verses ARE a clear teaching, the bible says it in more than one place,

No they are not. Have a read of post #22 (amongst others), they explain why they are not clear.

i mean ok for Leviticus they can argue that there are many old laws in that book that are no longer kept, but what about the other ones?

If i was gay and i read that i would be very worried, and i would stop straight away and change my ways. I would not be stubborn and try to justify it or find a way around it.

Many others would as well. But that is because the translation isnt accurate or has been done on assumptions rather than what is actually written.

It’s as if they are just picking and choosing which rules to keep and which to ignore or try to justify.

The same thing could be said about you and others (not a critisism). But what rules do they ignore?

I’m a Protestant, and in my church our minister has said on numerous occasions that homosexuality is a sin. He knows the bible inside out, and from what I’ve read myself, I find it remarkable how people are so stubborn and don’t stick to what the bible teaches us.

Maybe its time for you to do your own research on the subject. It has been suggested to you to read other posts in this thread relating to mistranslations in the bible, yet you still assert (it could be said stubbornly) that others dont follow what the bible teaches without addressing those comments.

Please read the thread before you make any more assertions.

Oh and welcome to CAF.

 

[Elric]

We can judge ACTIONS!

How can sexual relations between a man and woman be a DAMNABLE sin outside of marriage but it’s ok for homosexuals to engage in? It’s not ok and it is WRONG. There is so such thing as a homosexual “marriage” before 20 years ago. So it’s a man made notion, never supported by history or the bible. That is the bottom line.

There was no such thing as a homosexual before the 19th century either.

So what does that mean?

Oh and the bible makes no statement on same sex marriages, so it is neither condoned or condemned.

 

[wisdomseeker]

what is fruitful? the people at the time of noah who were fruitful and multiplied and god not only wiped them out but every living thing that was of them.

or commited homosexual couples who open their homes to abandoned and rejected children from heterosexual unions. homes that are equally nurturing and loving as heterosexual married couples. and the sexual intimacy expressed in those relationships enhances that loving, nurturing environment.

so it is your position that these couples instead of being together should be seperate, and consequently there would be no devoted relationship and subsequently no loving and nurturing home and no parented children.

jesus said we would recognize them by their fruit…not if they are able to be fruitful or not.

I don t condenm or judge noone.
the love that God talks about is not homosexual type of love. sorry.
please do not use kindness of raising children by homosexual to justify sin.
although i commanded to love all. my love will not save you.
when we are called by God, we no longer is to be committing the sins we used to commit before knowing Him.
we are now new creatures and no longer the old.
we are to be the light of the world. how do you call yourself to be the light of the world when commiting such acts?
remember when Jesus forgave the prostitute, He said “go and sin no more.”
unless you dont think you need forgiveness for these acts.
God is the fountain of all that is good, righteousness, and purity.
to say that Our God approves such things is blasphemy.
pray that God show you what He wants you to do.

[SIGN]“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… [/SIGN]

 

[Moireach]

This is actually having a go at hetrosexuals for performing unnatural acts and for turning their backs on God to go back to their old religion.

Um, no its not. Where do u get that from? I think you are translating this the way u want to, that is clearly not what it’s saying. I think the New Century Version translates it perfectly:

‘In the same way, men stopped having natural sex and began wanting each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and in their bodies they recieved the punishment for those wrongs.’

This translation isnt even based on assumptions. I dont see how u can argue with it.

For hetrosexuals, homosexual acts are very unnatural. But for homosexuals however…

There’s no such thing about being born gay. Anybody could be straight if they wanted. A bit suspicous how all of a sudden when the culture changes gays suddenly emerge isnt it.

“And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman”
It makes little sense and can be taken to have many different meanings…

No it doesnt the meaning is clear, however there are many rules in Leviticus that are not taken seriously.

however in the church i attend which is almost completely gay, couples here marry. so i see no point in bring this issue up…

Cringe. That is so unnecessary. Why when they could so easily be straight and KEEP God’s law?? grr, i hope that’s a catholic church, cos that would disgrace the Protestant church, and is a very bad witness to the unsaved.

 

[Moireach]

I don t condenm or judge noone.
the love that God talks about is not homosexual type of love. sorry.
please do not use kindness of raising children by homosexual to justify sin.
although i commanded to love all. my love will not save you.
when we are called by God, we no longer is to be committing the sins we used to commit before knowing Him.
we are now new creatures and no longer the old.
we are to be the light of the world. how do you call yourself to be the light of the world when commiting such acts?
remember when Jesus forgave the prostitute, He said “go and sin no more.”
unless you dont think you need forgiveness for these acts.
God is the fountain of all that is good, righteousness, and purity.
to say that Our God approves such things is blasphemy.
pray that God show you what He wants you to do.

 

[feetxxxl]

I don t condenm or judge noone.
the love that God talks about is not homosexual type of love. sorry.
please do not use kindness of raising children by homosexual to justify sin.

under the new covenant in order for something to be a sin, according to scriptutre, it must come against loving ones neighbor as oneself, which paul says is the summation of all the law, how does it come against this?

if the fruit of the spirit of christ is love, joy peace, kindness, patience,gentleness self-control,goodness, and faithfulness, the spirit of christ being the spirit of god, then anything that is a sin would come against this as well. how does it do that?

although i commanded to love all. my love will not save you.
when we are called by God, we no longer is to be committing the sins we used to commit before knowing Him.
we are now new creatures and no longer the old.
we are to be the light of the world. how do you call yourself to be the light of the world when commiting such acts?

what acts are you talking about. being devoted, respectful, loving to someone, a person is attracted to, so as to desire a one flesh relationship with them? and because they are of the same sex, why does that make it a sin. the bonding spirit is the same with or without the sex and is definitely the same bonding spirit as among heterosexuals? if it is the same how is it a sin?
remember when Jesus forgave the prostitute, He said “go and sin no more.”

thought she was an adulteress.

unless you dont think you need forgiveness for these acts.
God is the fountain of all that is good, righteousness, and purity.
to say that Our God approves such things is blasphemy.
pray that God show you what He wants you to do.

god is concerned with our hearts. how does relationships of this nature desecrate our hearts?

[SIGN]“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… [/SIGN]