Sex drive question

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Maybe so, but is this the place for that? I think the place for that would be maybe a thread of it’s own. People gave up on actually helping the OP to have a debate. That I think is wrong and there is no reason this debate cannot be moved to a new thread.
TMG this thread has a number of concurrent sub-debates going on - thats pretty normal on a forum from my experience. The OP posted a number of questions and assumptions.

I am suggesting that the “stereotypical masculine temptations” JT is experiencing and comparing herself to actually needs to be “deconstructed” somewhat. I am asserting that the male stereotype she assumes (and indeed many males also assume) is heavily biased by popular secular society (and even some christians) towards an almost purely biological explanation which downplays the strong role (for good or bad) that environment/culture also contributes.

If the experience of men actually varies widely because of this (even if the male biological component may well on average be set higher than women) why shouldn’t the same hold for women? Clearly it is the experience of many women here that it does.

If this angle doesn’t ring your bell just ignore it and contribute to the other sub-debates or questions that resonate with you 😉
 
Since I have a few minutes while I’m printing out a few hundred pages, and since it may benefit he OP, here are some articles. Some also have references which you may also research:

carlsonschool.umn.edu/Assets/71520.pdf

science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/human-biology/men-have-stronger-sex-drive1.htm

medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=147734

webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare
VP from these references (which appear to be silent on the issues I have raised with your views) I now realise you may not understand what I am disagreeing with you over. I am not debating who has the higher sex drive.

The point I have been trying to communicate you - namely, sex drive is not simply/primarily a 1:1 mapping with biology (e.g. extra pressure from fluid build up in the seminal vesicles every 3 days :eek:) - is in fact supported in your first reference (as others look to have noticed also):

“The possibility of cultural influence must be ac-knowledged…”
“it would be premature to declare that a substantial part of the gender difference in sex drive is biologically innate, but we think the evidence is pointing in that di-rection…”
“Probably gender differences in sex drive reflect a combination of natural and cultural influences.”

As the corny joke goes…“the body’s most sensitive erogenous zone…is the mind.”
 
OP, I think that regardless of whether or not the philosophy equally addresses the sexual nature of both men and women, the advice given is good and can be applied to both. Attempting to view the opposite gender as a child of God, as opposed to viewing them as a tool for sexual release, respecting the sexual act within the context of a marriage in which both parties sacrifice for the other, thinking of intimacy as a unitive act rathern than as a sole opportunity for pleasure, distracting oneself toward more productive tasks when the urge presents itself, etc. - this is the same kind of thinking women can follow as well.

Is that what you’re looking for? I’m not sure - it seems as though you’re asking for something more specific, but I don’t know what that is. Could you elaborate with examples?
I was just about to suggest something very similar 👍.

There is also the practical Buddhist approach…but I am not sure this is the sort of advice you are asking for here.
 
I am suggesting that the “stereotypical masculine temptations” JT is experiencing and comparing herself to actually needs to be “deconstructed” somewhat. I am asserting that the male stereotype she assumes (and indeed many males also assume) is heavily biased by popular secular society (and even some christians) towards an almost purely biological explanation which downplays the strong role (for good or bad) that environment/culture also contributes.
Yes. What most of the studies that we see demonstrate is not any scientific fact, but superficial observation compiled to re-assert a widely-held belief. To pass over, or even discard completely the power that group pressure or modern convention has on individual human behavior, and to then attempt to reach a definitive biological conclusion, is misleading. This would be like observing my behavior toward chocolate (which I love). If one were to place a slice of chocolate cake in front of me I will want to eat it almost every single time. What will cause me to refrain from eating four slices a day is the knowledge of the consequences such an action may bring. (I will gain weight, my blood sugar will skyrocket, it provides unhealthy calories as opposed to healthy ones, society does not approve of obesity, etc) The fact that I take this information into account and refrain from indulging says absolutely nothing about my desire for it – it simply demonstrates that I will refrain despite my desire, not because there is a lack of it. To observe my deferral of chocolate each time it is offered to me and to then reach the conclusion that I therefore must not like chocolate very much would be false.

I would also argue that the notion “men are polygamous, women are hypergamous” is again not rooted in any biological imperative, but is rather a reflection of how sexual selection had to be modified once societies had shifted from small agricultural tribes in which the male-female ratio is relatively equal to societies which were later based upon inter-tribal conflict and monetary systems. Good old-fashioned polygyny relied on the ability of men to fight off male competitors from getting close to their women, either by physical force or legal sanction. The practice was able to thrive not because women preferred by nature to share a wealthy man with other women, or because they had no sexual drive toward men who were not their designated mates or husbands, but because their nesting instinct forced them to adapt to the options available when the acquisition of resources were delegated in return for money. I would hypothesize that prior to the barter system, if the residing alpha male at the time lost to his challenger, the females who had been sequestered for his own enjoyment would then mate with the usurper, because their drives prompted them to do so. I say this because this is what happens with most animals – a female will mate with any male that is able to reach her, and she will become impregnated by several different males over her lifetime.

In patriarchal societies, which are created, and fluid in terms of custom and practice, in order to circumvent the need to physically block access to females (and the subsequent risk of losing the females to another male), a dominant ruling class that is able to set standards by which the weaker are required to comply can introduce an artificial concept which states that women should desire to mate with one male and one male only. Continue perpetuating that notion, and keep the double-standard firmly in place, and we might see why some reach the erroneous conclusion that monogamy is somehow more natural to women. It might be interesting to study whether there is a diametrically-opposed shifting between the evolution of a society that relies more heavily on group cooperation and organization (and less on raw brute strength) and the sexual expectations of women. (Or in other words, as society has moved away from dependence upon physical strength, have more restrictions been placed upon female behavior to compensate for the risk to the male?)
 
I thought this thread was kind of entertaining. I have a whole stack of studies that all say something like the following:
“Men had a significantly higher sex drive than did women (t(263.97) = 9.77, p < .001), but were significantly more likely than women to be virgins (t(273.87) = 2.15, p < .04).1 They also reported marginally more lifetime sexual partners than did women (t(272) = 1.86, p = .06), and had significantly less restricted sociosexual orientations than did women (t(253) = 7.52, p < .001).”
"How are Sociosexuality, Sex Drive, and Lifetime Number of Sexual Partners Related?"
Jennifer M. Ostovich and John Sabini
Pers Soc Psychol Bulletin 2004 30: 1255
 
I think one interesting aspect on maybe (And this is a maybe, simply my immediate thoughts after reading the thread) why the culture thinks men are lustier is because scientifically men reach their sexual prime when they are eighteen. Usually men are not married by this time, and so they are more known for going out parading for sex, which is of course documented for the scandal of it. Scientifically women reach their sexual prime at thirty, which is usually when women are married and so it is not nearly as documented. This could be wrong, but it is an interesting theory to think about.
 
Well put ValPal. From a purely primitive and biological standpoint, men are ordered towards polygamy while women are ordered towards hypergamy. Men are ordered towards spreading their genes to as many mates as possible, while women get just one crack at a time, so they’re on the lookout for the best mate possible. However, once they find someone that fits the bill, the switch is flipped into the “ON” position quite hard, especially during peak fertility of a cycle.

So it makes sense then that men would generally have higher sex drives on a given day because they’re never shifting between hormones that flip on and off. We men are always on, barring psychological or medical issues.

But I don’t think there’s any question that A) there are exceptions to the rule B) women don’t naturally have a LOW sex drive, just lower than men during parts of their cycle C) the idea that women do and should have naturally low sex drives is a ridiculous cultural misconception and D) when women are “ON” they are really, really “ON.”
I don’t agree with that whatsoever, this has recently been the secularists view on the order of thing’s to justify their moralities or lack of it. Are we to think that God made us in that way which is the order of thing’s only to later ask that we follow a completely different order (monogamy) , we as Christian’s would certainly call these thing’s disordered.
 
I think one interesting aspect on maybe (And this is a maybe, simply my immediate thoughts after reading the thread) why the culture thinks men are lustier is because scientifically men reach their sexual prime when they are eighteen. Usually men are not married by this time, and so they are more known for going out parading for sex, which is of course documented for the scandal of it. Scientifically women reach their sexual prime at thirty, which is usually when women are married and so it is not nearly as documented. This could be wrong, but it is an interesting theory to think about.
That’s a plausible theory, as drive can certainly fluctuate with age. Another theory your post introduces is that in which the strength of a drive is determined by whether or not the drive is of an aggressive nature, instead of a passive one.
 
I think one interesting aspect on maybe (And this is a maybe, simply my immediate thoughts after reading the thread) why the culture thinks men are lustier is because scientifically men reach their sexual prime when they are eighteen. Usually men are not married by this time, and so they are more known for going out parading for sex, which is of course documented for the scandal of it. Scientifically women reach their sexual prime at thirty, which is usually when women are married and so it is not nearly as documented. This could be wrong, but it is an interesting theory to think about.
Oh that’s an interesting theory. Men reach their prime before they are married and before they are completely mature mentally, so they seem more aggressive and people think it means higher sex drive so you mix the immaturity with it and that might explain some of their behavior and women reach their prime at a time when most are already married and more mature so yeah that could explain a lot of things. But even before women reach their prime the sex drive is still strong, it just gets better and better till we reach our prime. That is interesting.
That’s a plausible theory, as drive can certainly fluctuate with age. Another theory your post introduces is that in which the strength of a drive is determined by whether or not the drive is of an aggressive nature, instead of a passive one.
That’s also an interesting theory, because men are more aggressive than women, their drive may seem stronger because of the more aggressive nature and because men’s drive can be connected to that more aggressive nature. Women are not as aggressive so people equate that to lesser drive, which is a mistake. Men are just more vocal about their drive because they are more aggressive by nature.
 
I don’t agree with that whatsoever, this has recently been the secularists view on the order of thing’s to justify their moralities or lack of it. Are we to think that God made us in that way which is the order of thing’s only to later ask that we follow a completely different order (monogamy) , we as Christian’s would certainly call these thing’s disordered.
Well you’re just dead wrong about this from a scientific perspective. I don’t think God made us one way and then asked us to follow another; I think that God gave us the proper sexual drive to fulfill His first mission for us: “Be fruitful and multiply.” It was our fall, our turning away from God’s love and choosing sin that makes our spirit and our bodies be at odds with one another from time to time.

Look, we all have the desire to eat, right? And with a big spread before us, it is easy to overindulge. But overeating, at least on a regular basis, is sinful. It is gluttony. Our sexual drive is likewise natural and God-given. But it is our propensity to sin that makes it difficult to control. We are called to discipline ourselves in all things; what you are saying is that God would never require us to discipline ourselves in order to live upright and moral lives. He would just make us without faults.
 
Oh that’s an interesting theory. Men reach their prime before they are married and before they are completely mature mentally, so they seem more aggressive and people think it means higher sex drive so you mix the immaturity with it and that might explain some of their behavior and women reach their prime at a time when most are already married and more mature so yeah that could explain a lot of things. But even before women reach their prime the sex drive is still strong, it just gets better and better till we reach our prime. That is interesting.

That’s also an interesting theory, because men are more aggressive than women, their drive may seem stronger because of the more aggressive nature and because men’s drive can be connected to that more aggressive nature. Women are not as aggressive so people equate that to lesser drive, which is a mistake. Men are just more vocal about their drive because they are more aggressive by nature.
I can definitely say that as a sixteen year old male urges can tempt you to be aggressive in order to act on them. I think women can most certainly be aggressive, but testosterone in itself is more aggressive than estrogen so it wouldn’t surprise me if on average males were more aggressive sexually than women.
 
Well you’re just dead wrong about this from a scientific perspective. I don’t think God made us one way and then asked us to follow another; I think that God gave us the proper sexual drive to fulfill His first mission for us: “Be fruitful and multiply.” It was our fall, our turning away from God’s love and choosing sin that makes our spirit and our bodies be at odds with one another from time to time.

Look, we all have the desire to eat, right? And with a big spread before us, it is easy to overindulge. But overeating, at least on a regular basis, is sinful. It is gluttony. Our sexual drive is likewise natural and God-given. But it is our propensity to sin that makes it difficult to control. We are called to discipline ourselves in all things; what you are saying is that God would never require us to discipline ourselves in order to live upright and moral lives. He would just make us without faults.
Yes but your post stated that men are ordered toward’s spreading their gene’s to as many mates as possible and totally ignore’s the sacrament of marriage, it also seem’s illogical as God made Eve for Adam and Adam for Eve. Not for Adam to mate with as many women as he desired, this was not what he ordered
 
Yes but your post stated that men are ordered toward’s spreading their gene’s to as many mates as possible and totally ignore’s the sacrament of marriage, it also seem’s illogical as God made Eve for Adam and Adam for Eve. Not for Adam to mate with as many women as he desired, this was not what he ordered
How does it ignore the sacrament of marriage? I also have a desire to flee from harrowing situations, but sometimes the right moral choice is to stand firm. My survival instinct would tell me to deny Christ if say, there were some pogroms against Christians going around. Would I be right to follow that instinct or would the right moral choice be to defend my faith no matter what the temporal consequences?

Similarly, the most basic of all instincts is towards survival of the entire species. It’s innate in all creatures, even those who reproduce asexually. Men want to spread their genes as far and wide as possible to ensure the survival of their lines. Women want to find the strongest mate possible since they only really get one crack at it. They’ve gotta pick the right one to ensure their children are strong as well.

God made men for women and women for men as a whole. He does not necessarily pick out “soul mates” for all of us who are called to marriage. And even if He did, we sometimes make imperfect choices. But even if we make an imperfect choice, should we then abandon the one we chose to find “God’s match” if our choice was valid even if imperfect? No. The creation myth is an allegory that reveals some very real moral truths. God made us in His image. Male and female He created us. He gave us dominion over the world and charged us to be good stewards of it. He told us to be fruitful and multiply. He gave us a proper sexual drive in order to fulfill that mission. Our fall into sin created the propensity to misuse this powerful gift, just as we have the propensity to misuse other gifts by falling into the sins of pride or anger.
 
How does it ignore the sacrament of marriage? I also have a desire to flee from harrowing situations, but sometimes the right moral choice is to stand firm. My survival instinct would tell me to deny Christ if say, there were some pogroms against Christians going around. Would I be right to follow that instinct or would the right moral choice be to defend my faith no matter what the temporal consequences?

Similarly, the most basic of all instincts is towards survival of the entire species. It’s innate in all creatures, even those who reproduce asexually. Men want to spread their genes as far and wide as possible to ensure the survival of their lines. Women want to find the strongest mate possible since they only really get one crack at it. They’ve gotta pick the right one to ensure their children are strong as well.

God made men for women and women for men as a whole. He does not necessarily pick out “soul mates” for all of us who are called to marriage. And even if He did, we sometimes make imperfect choices. But even if we make an imperfect choice, should we then abandon the one we chose to find “God’s match” if our choice was valid even if imperfect? No. The creation myth is an allegory that reveals some very real moral truths. God made us in His image. Male and female He created us. He gave us dominion over the world and charged us to be good stewards of it. He told us to be fruitful and multiply. He gave us a proper sexual drive in order to fulfill that mission. Our fall into sin created the propensity to misuse this powerful gift, just as we have the propensity to misuse other gifts by falling into the sins of pride or anger.
It’s important to remember God told us to be fruitful and multiply when the earth needed to be populated. That is no longer the case and we are called to only have one spouse if we are called to marriage.
 
It’s important to remember God told us to be fruitful and multiply when the earth needed to be populated. That is no longer the case and we are called to only have one spouse if we are called to marriage.
I’m sorry, but that sounds as though you believe polygamy was actually moral at one time. Polygamy is against the human dignity of those involved and neither is, nor ever was moral.
 
How does it ignore the sacrament of marriage? I also have a desire to flee from harrowing situations, but sometimes the right moral choice is to stand firm. My survival instinct would tell me to deny Christ if say, there were some pogroms against Christians going around. Would I be right to follow that instinct or would the right moral choice be to defend my faith no matter what the temporal consequences?

Similarly, the most basic of all instincts is towards survival of the entire species. It’s innate in all creatures, even those who reproduce asexually. Men want to spread their genes as far and wide as possible to ensure the survival of their lines. Women want to find the strongest mate possible since they only really get one crack at it. They’ve gotta pick the right one to ensure their children are strong as well.

God made men for women and women for men as a whole. He does not necessarily pick out “soul mates” for all of us who are called to marriage. And even if He did, we sometimes make imperfect choices. But even if we make an imperfect choice, should we then abandon the one we chose to find “God’s match” if our choice was valid even if imperfect? No. The creation myth is an allegory that reveals some very real moral truths. God made us in His image. Male and female He created us. He gave us dominion over the world and charged us to be good stewards of it. He told us to be fruitful and multiply. He gave us a proper sexual drive in order to fulfill that mission. Our fall into sin created the propensity to misuse this powerful gift, just as we have the propensity to misuse other gifts by falling into the sins of pride or anger.
But that is still not the order of thing’s God created them for, you admit this when you say that giving into these desire’s for promiscuous reason’s should be avoided, i assume you say this because you understand that these behavior’s distort the order in which god intended. I didn’t say we have a soul mate but simply giving an example of how God intended one man and one woman of being joined together, not one man spreading his genes to as many women as possible through promiscuous behavior, this is certainly not God’s order
 
Yes but your post stated that men are ordered toward’s spreading their gene’s to as many mates as possible and totally ignore’s the sacrament of marriage, it also seem’s illogical as God made Eve for Adam and Adam for Eve. Not for Adam to mate with as many women as he desired, this was not what he ordered
True, God made one woman for Adam and then told them to multiply and refill the earth. 👍 God did not make Adam and then create 10 women for him. 😃 God set the tone for how He wanted the family unit to be when he created one woman for Adam and one man for Eve. 👍
 
I’m sorry, but that sounds as though you believe polygamy was actually moral at one time. Polygamy is against the human dignity of those involved and neither is, nor ever was moral.
In the Old Testament, it appears that way. Plenty of very prominent people in the OT has multiple wives, and I don’t recall a single one of them being condemned for it. In fact, in certain cases it was basically a duty, such as taking the deceased brother’s wife.
 
In the Old Testament, it appears that way. Plenty of very prominent people in the OT has multiple wives, and I don’t recall a single one of them being condemned for it. In fact, in certain cases it was basically a duty, such as taking the deceased brother’s wife.
I am well aware of these passages, however I have alwasy understood them to be explained differently. Some were portrayed negatively, if one looks closely, and the placing of them into law was a concession made for the Israelites because they were a sinful people, not because it was actually a good thing to do.

It would be inconsistant with Church teaching and theology to claim that polygamy was at one point in time a morally neutral act as claiming such a thing is directly contrary to the entire understanding of the Church on sexuality. We are to read the Bible in light of the Church’s interpretations, not just our own.
 
I am well aware of these passages, however I have alwasy understood them to be explained differently. Some were portrayed negatively, if one looks closely, and the placing of them into law was a concession made for the Israelites because they were a sinful people, not because it was actually a good thing to do.
Some were portrayed positively:

2 Samuel 12:8
I gave you your master’s household and your master’s wives into your arms, I gave you the House of Israel and the House of Judah; and, if this is still too little, I shall give you other things as well.
It would be inconsistant with Church teaching and theology to claim that polygamy was at one point in time a morally neutral act as claiming such a thing is directly contrary to the entire understanding of the Church on sexuality. We are to read the Bible in light of the Church’s interpretations, not just our own.
IMHO, it would have to be morally neutral. For example, try to interpret one of the most well known stories in the OT if it weren’t morally neutral: The story of Onan. Onan took his brother’s wife. If this were not at least a morally permissible act, then there wouldn’t be an issue with “contracepting,” but rather fornication.
 
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