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jmcrae
Guest
Isn’t the requirement that they have to be at least nominally Anglican?
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wutru
Guest
And supposing that only one religion was really true, and the rest false, he [Utopus] imagined that the native force of truth would at last break forth and shine bright, if supported only by the strength of argument, and attended to with a gentle and unprejudiced mind; while, on the other hand, if such debates were carried on with violence and tumults, as the most wicked are always the most obstinate, so the best and most holy religion might be choked with superstition, as corn is with briars and thorns; he therefore left men wholly to their liberty, that they might be free to believe as they should see cause.
-St. Thomas More’s Utopia
-St. Thomas More’s Utopia
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IrishBrigade
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Hi Rita,
I can’t speak for everyone, but the thing about Sharia law that gives me pause is that the people who want it, want to have their own Sharia law courts, separate and distinct from the British government law courts. This is well beyond following customs such as men wearing beards or women wearing garments that cover them from head to foot, or permitting the unfettered practice of their religion.
Having separate Sharia law courts would mean that an Islamic criminal would be subject to different laws and consequences than someone British but of another faith. This could lead to disparities of treatment that may be very problematic and also could very well lead to arguments over which court has jurisdiction over an incident involving a Muslim and a non-Muslim. The potential complications are endless.
I’m not sure I understand why, if Sharia is so important to them, Muslims emigrate to a country that does not live according to Sharia law, why not stay in their home country?
Establishing separate Sharia law courts may also be, in the Muslims’ view, merely the first step in imposing Sharia law on the entire country. I find even the possibility of that alarming.
Another point that puts it in perspective for me is extending this concept to other religions. If the Muslims are going to have their Sharia law courts, then perhaps Buddhists should have their courts, and Jews should have theirs, and Christians should have their own Christian law courts. I suspect most people would scoff at the idea of Christian law courts. So why should the Muslims living in the country be any different? What makes them so special that they should have their own laws and their own courts?
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jmcrae
Guest
I am under the impression that most Muslims move to secular and Christian countries in order to escape from Shari’a law.
I don’t see how imposing it on them in their new countries would be doing them any favours.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Indeed. I quite agree.
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nsper7
Guest
Canada is already allowing Sharia law at the same time their making it illegal for Christian ministers to speak out against homosexuality. It is hypocritical that the same people who condemn Christianity and do everything in their power to stop the spread of the Word are willing to accept Islamism into their own country with open arms.
It seems people don’t study history. They forget how Islam seized the Holy Land, smashed the Byzantine Empire and seized control over almost all of Spain. They would have done more except for the bravery of many a European Christian.
It seems to me they’ve learned their lesson. If Islam tries to take over militariliy again, they’ll be in for another fight, but they do it socio-politically and everyone applauds them in the name of multi-culturalism. We saw how much damage they could do when those riots over the Mohammed cartoon occurred (notice that when there have been numerous occurrences of attempts to mock Christianity, riots do NOT ensue). Everyday, you can turn on TV and see someone mocking some facit of Christianity.
Don’t get me wrong, I think there are many Muslims who seek to live a decent God-fearing life and are good (as well as any fallen human being can be ‘good’) people, but there are some (no one really knows how many) who would just as soon seen Islam become the dominant/supreme religion and subject everyone else to dhimmi status.
Someone earlier mentioned that some Muslim claimed that Islam hopes to control all of Europe’s cathedrals within 20 years or something. From my understanding, that is not a joke. Already, several churches and cathedrals have been converted into mosques.
There are two centers of Christianity in Western Europe: Canterbury and the Vatican. Because of the liberalism creeping into parts of Anglicanism, it seems as though Canterbury is fast losing (if it hasn’t already lost) its centrality (even within Anglicanism, the areas of theological conservatism are more in the ‘Developing World’ [esp. Africa]).
I see it going one of several ways:
A) A theologically conservative reformer (think an Anglican St. Pius X) is enthroned on the Chair of St. Augustine
B) Canterbury loses its spiritual authority (if Anglicanism splits up and Canterbury falls in the liberal camp, I think it will become a mockery), leaving one other Christian center in Europe and hopefully the Chair of St. Peter can bear the extra weight
C) If both ‘centers’ fail, then Western Europe is in deep. Islam will (as it is already) try to move into Western Europe. Unfortunately, the Eastern Orthodox haven’t done that well making inroads into the West and, if the third largest (Angiclicanism) denomination can’t hold then I don’t see how the more regional Lutherans and Calvinists can hold in Europe
It seems people don’t study history. They forget how Islam seized the Holy Land, smashed the Byzantine Empire and seized control over almost all of Spain. They would have done more except for the bravery of many a European Christian.
It seems to me they’ve learned their lesson. If Islam tries to take over militariliy again, they’ll be in for another fight, but they do it socio-politically and everyone applauds them in the name of multi-culturalism. We saw how much damage they could do when those riots over the Mohammed cartoon occurred (notice that when there have been numerous occurrences of attempts to mock Christianity, riots do NOT ensue). Everyday, you can turn on TV and see someone mocking some facit of Christianity.
Don’t get me wrong, I think there are many Muslims who seek to live a decent God-fearing life and are good (as well as any fallen human being can be ‘good’) people, but there are some (no one really knows how many) who would just as soon seen Islam become the dominant/supreme religion and subject everyone else to dhimmi status.
Someone earlier mentioned that some Muslim claimed that Islam hopes to control all of Europe’s cathedrals within 20 years or something. From my understanding, that is not a joke. Already, several churches and cathedrals have been converted into mosques.
There are two centers of Christianity in Western Europe: Canterbury and the Vatican. Because of the liberalism creeping into parts of Anglicanism, it seems as though Canterbury is fast losing (if it hasn’t already lost) its centrality (even within Anglicanism, the areas of theological conservatism are more in the ‘Developing World’ [esp. Africa]).
I see it going one of several ways:
A) A theologically conservative reformer (think an Anglican St. Pius X) is enthroned on the Chair of St. Augustine
B) Canterbury loses its spiritual authority (if Anglicanism splits up and Canterbury falls in the liberal camp, I think it will become a mockery), leaving one other Christian center in Europe and hopefully the Chair of St. Peter can bear the extra weight
C) If both ‘centers’ fail, then Western Europe is in deep. Islam will (as it is already) try to move into Western Europe. Unfortunately, the Eastern Orthodox haven’t done that well making inroads into the West and, if the third largest (Angiclicanism) denomination can’t hold then I don’t see how the more regional Lutherans and Calvinists can hold in Europe
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Kaninchen
Guest
I can’t but help thinking that this particular discussion could do without the ‘science fiction’ aspect that often comes when discussing Islam and Muslims.
Muslims make up about 3% of the population of the UK - at the current rate of immigration, there are likely to be more Poles in the country than Muslims within a very few years. What they are is heavily (to borrow a term) ghettoized and, since most British Muslims come from a few regions of Pakistan, rather tribal and insular - something we Jews know something about!
Anybody who thinks that the Brits, who have spent centuries at war with themselves and others over whether politics and religion should be taken really, really seriously are going to submit to Sharia, doesn’t know the Brits - nothing is more likely to galvanize people (including quite a few British Muslims alongside, I’d be prepared to bet) than the idea that the seriously religious (or seriously political) might be in charge of anything - huge numbers of Brits have died to prevent/stop that sort of thing.
Muslims make up about 3% of the population of the UK - at the current rate of immigration, there are likely to be more Poles in the country than Muslims within a very few years. What they are is heavily (to borrow a term) ghettoized and, since most British Muslims come from a few regions of Pakistan, rather tribal and insular - something we Jews know something about!
Anybody who thinks that the Brits, who have spent centuries at war with themselves and others over whether politics and religion should be taken really, really seriously are going to submit to Sharia, doesn’t know the Brits - nothing is more likely to galvanize people (including quite a few British Muslims alongside, I’d be prepared to bet) than the idea that the seriously religious (or seriously political) might be in charge of anything - huge numbers of Brits have died to prevent/stop that sort of thing.
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nsper7
Guest
Remember that in 1924, the Nazis only polled 3% in Germany. 3% may sound like a small number, but if there is little concentrated resistance and a vacuum (i.e. the Church of England and European Protestantism failing to meet people’s spiritual needs), that percentage will fast grow. People seek spirituality and if the modern liberal form of Christianity doesn’t provide, Islam may well.
Christianity is not doing well in Europe.
Percentage of Population claiming Christianity by Country
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Kaninchen
Guest
Little concentrated resistance? To what? What are people supposed to be resisting? Resisting buying from Muslim-owned stalls in street markets?
This sort of ‘Muslim plot for domination’ business is the kind of thing the Nazis were selling, for heaven’s sake.
I can’t say that it’s something I lose any sleep over.
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nsper7
Guest
I’m talking about spiritual resistance. Instead of the Archbishop of Canterbury saying that England was founded by Christians and why Christianity is the ‘right’ religion (he’s the Archbishop, remember?) compared to Islam, he seems willing to kowtow.
Also, historically, the Nazis were quite cozy with the Muslims. Read about the 13th “Handschar” Division of the SS, which was made up of Bosnian Muslims. Also, before the Nazis began exterminating Jews, they wanted to instead ship them out of Germany and there was a plan to relocate them to the Mandate of Palestine, but the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, refused to allow Jews into ‘Palestine’ and convinced the British to go along with it. Could the Holocaust have been prevented, or at least lessened, if Al-Husayni (Yassir Arafat’s uncle BTW) had allowed Jews to migrate into ‘Palestine’.
This is recorded history, not ‘science fiction’.
Well, as a person about to ‘swim the Thames’, it doesn’t please me to see the center of Anglicanism crumbling. Granted, even if Canterbury goes crazy, Anglicanism will still stand (albeit through the conservative African primacies/provinces), but I don’t want to see Europe lose its Christianity.
If Anglicanism in Europe fails and the regional Lutherans and other Protestants are unable/unwilling to create a unified spiritual front, it leaves it up to the Vatican to keep Christianity alive in Western Europe.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Most Brits don’t give a damn about the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church, Archbishops, Cardinals, Imams or Rabbis - soccer club managers, now that’s a different thing.
I’m from a German Jewish background, there’s not much you can teach me about the Reich.
No, supposed plots for Jewish or Muslim takeovers that led to, or are precursors to, ‘final solutions’, are the science fiction.
What’s this ‘united spiritual front’ supposed to be battling? The answer to that question might lie in real problems about real life rather than in science fiction.
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nsper7
Guest
Apathy is a dangerous thing. Who was it that said all it takes for evil to prevail is good men to do nothing?
Okay…
Are my facts wrong then?
Islam’s first attempt to seize Europe (which led to Islam dominating Iberia and virtually toppling the Byzantine Empire) is not ‘science fiction’, but documented history. If they did it once, who is to say they won’t try it again?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Indifference to the entreaties of demagogues is no bad thing at all.
Who said “I love the smell of cliché in the morning?” Oh, I know - me.
It’s what you leave out that is much more telling.
Ah, but after Mexico annexes the US they’ll invade Spain and relaunch the Spanish Hapsburg empire and invade central Europe . . . .
On the other hand . . .
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lukewarm
Guest
Probably not an optimist or a very good diplomat but I would say the Archbishop of Canterbury is right on point with his analysis. Within the next century Islam will vastly outnumber Christians in Britain, considering only about 5% of Britain even attends Church that is no great feat. Once Muslims get the numbers they will insist and get sharia law and yes Christians will be dhimmies and pay the jizzya (tax on non Muslims 10% of gross) to Muslims, this happens today in places that have sharia law. In our lifetime I would expect to see this happen in France, England, Belgium,and gulp *Italy *and other parts of Europe.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe, they have about 6 kids per child bearing female while Christian Europe is averaging a 1.4 *(Italy among the worst at reproduction). You do the math, it won’t take long and yes it is “unavoidable”.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe, they have about 6 kids per child bearing female while Christian Europe is averaging a 1.4 *(Italy among the worst at reproduction). You do the math, it won’t take long and yes it is “unavoidable”.
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Gene_Church
Guest
No wonder many of the English have trouble believing in infallability in Catholic Church teaching. It’s too easy to look across the Tiber and think “No infallibility here.”
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Kaninchen
Guest
I think one of the problems with North Americans and threads about Islam and Europe is that they’re always (at least and at best) last year’s fashion in European paranoias.
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Kaninchen
Guest
You can’t look across the Tiber in England - you really do have to be in Italy, honest!
I think that the idea that the English have trouble believing in infallibility in Catholic Church teaching is an overstatement - most of ‘the English’ don’t care one way or another about Catholic Church teaching on any subject whatsoever (that’s where they know what that teaching might be, when they don’t they have not the slightest interest in finding out) never mind whether it’s infallible or not.
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lukewarm
Guest
Practicing Catholics now outnumber Anglican church goers for the first time since the Reformation so that statement isn’t accurate. Or at least they care even less about the Church of England than they do about Catholicism…You can’t look across the Tiber in England - you really do have to be in Italy, honest!
I think that believing that the English have trouble believing in infallibility in Catholic Church teaching is an overstatement - **most of ‘the English’ don’t care one way or another about Catholic Church teaching on any subject whatsoever **(that’s where they know what that teaching might be, when they don’t they have not the slightest interest in finding out) never mind whether it’s infallible or not.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Both are a very small proportion of the total population.
My statement is entirely accurate.
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