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Joe_Kelley
Guest
But be aware that even paranoiacs have enemies.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Indeed they do but Western Europe may soon have to import Muslim plumbers to avoid Polish plumbers taking over the entire water and sewage system - dhimmitude to Eastern European plumbing potentates is on the horizon.But be aware that even paranoiacs have enemies.
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jmcrae
Guest
Yeah, but at least they’re Christians.
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LDNCatholic
Guest
I don’t think Kaninchen is too worried about Christians and Muslims.Yeah, but at least they’re Christians.
And for lukewarm. The Catholics might outnimber the Anglicans here but very few of them are English.
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nsper7
Guest
What happens if I go to swim the Thames and I find it too murky? For me, I can understand that the Anglican Communion (especially the Church of England and the US Episcopal Church) is having difficulty. Two things that bother me are:
A) If I go into ordained ministry (a big goal of mine), would I be forced to go along with things that I find wrong?
B) If I choose to have a family, could I raise my children in a group where I am constantly having to explain to them that this is not what the essence of Anglicanism (i.e. XXXIX Articles, Catechism, BCP, etc.)?
I may find myself having to swim the Tana…(a major Kenyan river; in my community, the individual church that schismed from the Episcopal Church, although remained in the Anglican Communion, became affiliated with the Anglican Church of Kenya).
A) If I go into ordained ministry (a big goal of mine), would I be forced to go along with things that I find wrong?
B) If I choose to have a family, could I raise my children in a group where I am constantly having to explain to them that this is not what the essence of Anglicanism (i.e. XXXIX Articles, Catechism, BCP, etc.)?
I may find myself having to swim the Tana…(a major Kenyan river; in my community, the individual church that schismed from the Episcopal Church, although remained in the Anglican Communion, became affiliated with the Anglican Church of Kenya).
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Kadaveri
Guest
ummahpulse.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=325&Itemid=71
If anyone’s interested in reading a more mainstream Muslim woman’s perspective.
If anyone’s interested in reading a more mainstream Muslim woman’s perspective.
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JamesN
Guest
The archbishop seems to be missing a fairly important point - that the ultimate ambition of Islam is the global usurping of every other theological and political system, by brutal repression if necessary. To my mind, his remarks offer the extremists fighting for this end a foot in the door. They as good as say that the the policy of indiscriminate slaughter is working, and that the resolve of democratic societies to stand up to such barbarity is weakening.
If I was a jihadist reading the Archbishop’s remarks, I would be very pleased.
If I was a jihadist reading the Archbishop’s remarks, I would be very pleased.
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Kaninchen
Guest
If I were an Islamaphobe, I’d be very pleased too, given the fuss about it all in the press.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Some people pooh-pooh the idea that there is any real threat of Islamic domination, despite the clear goals of the radical Islamists. Such persons find the very idea preposterous and are sometimes seen to mock, albeit the mockery is subtle at times, those who express concerns about a possible threat to Western Civilization.
Since the threat, if indeed it does come to fruition, will take generations, it’s handy for those that mock the idea that they won’t be around if and when the Islamists succeed, isn’t it?
Since the threat, if indeed it does come to fruition, will take generations, it’s handy for those that mock the idea that they won’t be around if and when the Islamists succeed, isn’t it?
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Kaninchen
Guest
That would appear to be me.
I would argue that it all really depends on what you mean by ‘threat’ and who is making it. If it means ‘the average Muslim in the European street’/‘Muslims breeding for victory in Europe’, then I think it’s nonsense - if it means terrorist threats, I think it’s very real.Since the threat, if indeed it does come to fruition, will take generations, it’s handy for those that mock the idea that they won’t be around if and when the Islamists succeed, isn’t it?
However, the the latter is a sign of weakness in the Muslim world rather than strength and long-term ambition. European Muslims are at the sharp end of the shock of ‘the modern’ - something, it should be noted, that Europeans dealt with very, very badly - Communism, Fascism, Nazism, and what might be called ‘non-specific’ Authoritarianism and the catastrophe that took place between 1939 and 1945. Out of that catastrophe, came the kind of liberal/social democracies that Muslims in Europe are struggling to come to terms with.
The awful truth of ‘the modern’ is that you can’t have the goodies without compromise - something that China and India have had to learn in recent times while countries like Pakistan are failing miserably to to do so. When you have nothing, all you have left is your ‘honor’ and when you’re going nowhere, the only context you can put that in is fundamentalism - whether that’s religious or political - I’m old enough to remember the ‘Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution’ in China, for example.
The lessons are not something anybody else can learn for them, or impose on them. Fortunately or unfortunately, they can’t have ‘stasis’ - ‘the Muslim in the street’ wants a good life too. Don’t forget that while you’re rolling your eyes.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
It actually wasn’t directed at anyone in particular as the sort of opinion I described has been expressed by diverse persons in diverse places, including this forum.
I haven’t forgotten the “Muslim in the Street” that wants a good life. Some of them appear to find rather novel ways to achieve it ~ such as suicide bombings and driving jets into buildings. And then it’s on to Paradise and 72 virgins.
But I also fully understand that there are those Muslims that are just trying to make a go of it, trying to find a better life for themselves and their families. And the transition between their previous culture and country to a Western one must be rather sharp.
Perhaps “North Americans” have a different perspective on this process because we are all nations of people that came from elsewhere and had to find a way to create/assimilate into a common culture in the new place, so we find such “fitting in” to be normal. And we have seen how divisive and destructive it can be when circumstances somehow impede such assimilation.
Assimilation doesn’t have to mean the utter subsuming of your entire culture and background, but it does mean that the general mores and laws of the new country now apply to you. As such, Sharia Law, in its fullest sense, has no place in Western countries and the Archbishop of Canterbury is wrong to suggest such a radical change is even possible, much less probable.
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JUSTANDRE
Guest
It is a pity that the focus in this debate is on human rights, which makes it rather difficult to criticize it. The focus should more accurately be on the proposed implementation of the sharia law, which is an outdated and completely repulsive “legal system” by any modern standards. We should be approaching the debate on the same basis as if the proposal was to implement any morally unacceptable law.
If you are indeed keen to protect human values and human rights - reject this archaic piece of injustice.
If you are indeed keen to protect human values and human rights - reject this archaic piece of injustice.
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jmcrae
Guest
I agree with you completely.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I also agree that this archaic system should be rejected.
The problem, of course, is that those that favor the system believe it is their religious duty to organize their legal system this way.
Sharia is a great example of why there should always be a separation between “church and state”. If someone wants to adopt Sharia standards in the way they dress, or the food that they eat, that’s fine for them. People are free to make that choice for themselves as long as they restrict this choice to themselves.
But to seek to impose Sharia in the place of a Western Country’s existing legal system has no place in modern society. If someone wants to live 100% under Sharia law, they should move to a country where Sharia is already the standard, such as Saudi Arabia or Iran.
The problem, of course, is that those that favor the system believe it is their religious duty to organize their legal system this way.
Sharia is a great example of why there should always be a separation between “church and state”. If someone wants to adopt Sharia standards in the way they dress, or the food that they eat, that’s fine for them. People are free to make that choice for themselves as long as they restrict this choice to themselves.
But to seek to impose Sharia in the place of a Western Country’s existing legal system has no place in modern society. If someone wants to live 100% under Sharia law, they should move to a country where Sharia is already the standard, such as Saudi Arabia or Iran.
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deb1
Guest
I agree with this. I find it hard to understand how a country can function when their are different laws for different groups.
My concern has nothing to do with only Muslims. I would be equally alarmed if fundamentalist Chrisitans or Catholics had their own courts.
Sometimes I’ve noticed that outside groups occasionally call for changes that they believe other groups find repressive(I hope that made sense) So, I am curious, are British Muslims calling for their own courts or is this something that some nonMuslims think that Muslims want?
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Kadaveri
Guest
I don’t think this message is getting across. What the Archbishop suggested is old hat, Muslims in Britain* already have *their own courts and have been using them for the last 25 years or so without a single complaint from the ‘one law for all’ crowd. The country has not descended into chaos because of it, on the other hand barely any non-Muslim seems to have even noticed.
This is just the media making an issue out of nothing.
This is just the media making an issue out of nothing.
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nsper7
Guest
Here is a serious question:
Since certain Muslims have claimed that it is their goal to, within the next few decades, take over Britain’s cathedrals (supposedly, several Anglican churches have been converted into Mosques, although I am not positive about this) and turn Britain into a Muslim (or at least a non-Christian) country, what does anyone think would happen?
For the Anglican Communion, although it would be tragic, I think the new ‘center’ would be relocated to a different See (hopefully one in Africa, for the other Commonwealth provinces, such as Australia, Canada and New Zealand are so theologically liberal), but what about Western Europe as a whole? Christianity doesn’t seem to be fairing too well and to lose one of two major centers could be disastrous for morale (Jesus says the gates of Hell won’t overtake the Church, but Islam was able to in Britain if it throws out the Church of England) and would leave Western European Christianity in the hands of the Vatican City and the regional Protestant groups. I would hope that, just as an RC Bishop and a Lutheran leader ‘cooperated’ to defeat the Anabaptists who seized Munster, that Roman Catholic and Protestant would look beyond difference and work together to defend Christendom.
Since certain Muslims have claimed that it is their goal to, within the next few decades, take over Britain’s cathedrals (supposedly, several Anglican churches have been converted into Mosques, although I am not positive about this) and turn Britain into a Muslim (or at least a non-Christian) country, what does anyone think would happen?
For the Anglican Communion, although it would be tragic, I think the new ‘center’ would be relocated to a different See (hopefully one in Africa, for the other Commonwealth provinces, such as Australia, Canada and New Zealand are so theologically liberal), but what about Western Europe as a whole? Christianity doesn’t seem to be fairing too well and to lose one of two major centers could be disastrous for morale (Jesus says the gates of Hell won’t overtake the Church, but Islam was able to in Britain if it throws out the Church of England) and would leave Western European Christianity in the hands of the Vatican City and the regional Protestant groups. I would hope that, just as an RC Bishop and a Lutheran leader ‘cooperated’ to defeat the Anabaptists who seized Munster, that Roman Catholic and Protestant would look beyond difference and work together to defend Christendom.
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jmcrae
Guest
If Britain becomes officially Muslim, the English Church (Anglicanism) would simply cease to exist, would it not?
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Kadaveri
Guest
Reality check:
There are 48 million Christians in the UK.
There are 1.6 million Muslims in the UK.
There are over 70,000 Churches in the UK.
There are about 800 Mosques in the UK.
A few Churches (most of which are disused anyway) being converted into Mosques is not going to make much difference. Muslims are not about to take over Britain.
There are 48 million Christians in the UK.
There are 1.6 million Muslims in the UK.
There are over 70,000 Churches in the UK.
There are about 800 Mosques in the UK.
A few Churches (most of which are disused anyway) being converted into Mosques is not going to make much difference. Muslims are not about to take over Britain.
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jmcrae
Guest
Who apparently aren’t practicing their faith. Or having kids.
Who seem to want to promote a system of law that discriminates against women and non-Muslims, and which prominently features the death penalty for things like flying kites and not wearing beards.
Not nearly enough to house 48 million practicing Christians, unless they have a seating capacity of more than 650,000 each.
I doubt that any of them are worried about keeping the lights on.
See above.
Yet they seem to be promoting a legal system that gives the death penalty for things like flying kites, and not wearing one’s beard long enough.
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