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CMatt25
Guest
Guan, does “you” include anyone or just Radical?
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guanophore
Guest
It certainly is, but you are not helping with bigotry and outlandish statements. If you want them to know their faith better, take some responsibility, and teach them.
At this point, you are in danger of being banned for lack of charity. Have you read the forum rules?
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guanophore
Guest
Clearly you are not in need of a special invitation, since you never hesitate.
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CMatt25
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I appreciate Radical’s response and candor as well and agree with a lot of it. But Guan while I know it’s your experience. I don’t know if I’d make such blanket judgements about the temperature and prayer and Bible reading of Cafeteria Catholics for instance.
To your credit I know you do not do all these things. But it always amazes me when I hear folks talk of purifying even if it results in a smaller Church. Or when they say Cafeteria Catholics for instance are not Catholics. When the Church says they are. Or some will say they are Protestants. Or place quotations around Catholic. Or protest their ID. Or might even accuse them of contempt for the Church simply because they see problems or disagree with something. On another thread you talked about percentages and faith. And I began to wonder if because they might see at least a 50% chance in the end of the Catholic faith being the truth, that while they continue along their faith walks, searching the Scriptures and praying to God, making room for Him in their faith. Doing their best to discern the Holy Spirit. Or as an Episcopalian priest, a former Roman priest once told me, if we open our hearts to His Holy Spirit, God will tell us where He wants us to go. So then even though they might see many problems with the Church and even in some teaching, while on their journey they do not completely evacuate yet.
Cafeteria Catholics and Protestants as Christians by definition have faith in God and a place for Him in their formula. They perhaps decide by faith in praying to His Spirit.
But oh well just like a former PCUSA, now UCC pastor once said to me when I questioned him about predestination, it is something to ponder over a cup of coffee I suppose.
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CMatt25
Guest
Nah it appears to me you did fine Radical. And hopefully others are open to learning from you as well. I know I am interested in learning various faiths. As you said, do not hesitate in calling all those united in a belief in HIm, brothers in Christ.
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guanophore
Guest
Oh, I am sure there are some that may have devotional practice, but the vast majority who defy the Church’s teachings on things like artificial birth control have never taken the time to find out the reason for the Teachings. They just assume that there are a bunch of elderly, celibate, backward men running things from overseas, who are out of touch with the needs of modern people and modern science.
There are hundreds of thousands of “Catholics” that are having relations before marriage. Even a basic biblical knowlege will show a person that this is not acceptable.
YOu mean pray, and read the Bible?
They are not practicing the Catholic faith. They have lost Catholicity.
Matt 5:13
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men.
How can you be light and salt to the world when you don’t act according to what you claim to believe?
Matt 5:13
It is not because they see problems or disagree, because all of us do. How can you read the news, and not see problems? But disobedience is another matter.
A Protestant is a person who claims Christianity but rejects the Catholic faith.
Maybe so.
I am curious about this phrase “making room for HIm in their faith”. It sounds as if their own faith is the most important - what they believe, and what they want to live. Maybe there is room for God, and maybe not?
It is possible to have faith, and put it other places, besides God.
Yes, this is true. However, the vast majority of American Catholics do not seek the Spirit, nor give attention to discernment. They don’t even go to Mass, and there is no time set aside by them during the week where they converse with God, or sit quietly and allow themselve to listen for His still small voice. There is no room for HIm in their “faith”.
Perhaps not. They need to be evangelized, though. It does no good to pretend that they are committed believers. This “1.3 million Catholics around the world” really irks me, because I think most of them don’t know their faith. When I was teaching confirmation classes, I was very discouraged about the lack of faith and interest, not just from the teens, but the families as well. Yes, they were all baptized Catholics, and the teens could not wait to “get out of CCD” and the parents could not wait to complete their duty to get all the sacraments for their kids. They all wanted to “get this over with”. It was painful.
YOu make a good point. A cafeteria catholic is still one up on a totally lapsed Catholic. They may be living in mortal sin, and commiting sacrilege, but there is still some value to them to be identified as “Catholic” for some reason.
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CMatt25
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Oh no Guan I apologize for your misunderstanding. I have more than faith that you do. From your posts alone, I am absolutely 100% certain, like me, that you too pray and read the Bible.
I meant you might not do all of those other things with regard to who is or is not Catholic. Oh sure you might be somewhat confusing at times using quotation marks and such. Perhaps even comparing Cafeteria Catholics to Protestants. After all of that though, what I meant is you do seem to still recognize the Church teaches a Catholic baptized in the Church is a Catholic.Guan, not all of these Catholics, whether Cafeteria or lapsed, claim or pretend to believe all the Church teaches. So of course they can be light to the world based on their fath and what they believe.
Guan if one disagrees with a faith teaching, one can have a tendency to disobey. Instead of obeying something they disagree with. We are talking faith beliefs. Not whether you disobey lets say the speed limit by driving 100 mph in a 50 mph zone just because you disagree with the posted legal speed limit. When you read the speed limit, there is only one way to interpret the writing on the sign. 50 does not read 100. But faith and belief is a different realm and reality.
I know Guan. You seem to have great curiosity in our discussions with the concept of believers making room for God in their faith journeys. I’ve done my best in trying to explain it to you. But it’s just a given to me that a believer in God along their lifelong faith journey and studies, is making room for Him as they embark on their walk. So I might never understand the dfficulty you have with the concept. Maybe just think about it a bit more is about all the more I can say.
Once agaon Guan I can not speak for nor judge any “vast majority”. I only have 2 feet and walk only in my 2 shoes. Sometimes as in the “Footprints” poem, Christ is even carrying me I believe.
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PRmerger
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This, sadly, is usually not true. What "light to the world’ these Catholics may show is actually darkness.
To the degree that this “light” they profess disagrees with the teachings of the Church is the degree that they are promoting darkness.
To wit:
-a Cafeteria Catholic says, “I go to Mass, but I don’t really believe Jesus is present there.” * Darkness.*
-a Cafeteria Catholic says, “I was baptized Catholic but I’m not going to get my baby baptized. I want him to decide for himself.” Darkness.
-a Cafeteria Catholic says, “I went to Mass on Easter, but I don’t really believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. He simply was ‘resurrected’ in the hearts and minds of his disciples.” Darkness.
-a Cafeteria Catholic says, “I left my wife for my high school sweetheart–I know this is where God wants me to be.” Darkness.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Off topic, somewhat…
What happens when you go to Ascension Thursday Mass, and Father goes to great length to show Jesus did not really Ascend, but the disciples stopped seeing him and He faded from their vivid memories?
And he’s a visiting priest, saying this to Catholic school children at Mass? 
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PRmerger
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Darkness!Off topic, somewhat…
What happens when you go to Ascension Thursday Mass, and Father goes to great length to show Jesus did not really Ascend, but the disciples stopped seeing him and He faded from their vivid memories?
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wanner47
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You call the Bishop’s office and file an immediate report, in addition to notifying the school’s regular pastor and the school board/pastoral council. And if nobody from those offices listens to you, you contact the Vatican.Off topic, somewhat…
What happens when you go to Ascension Thursday Mass, and Father goes to great length to show Jesus did not really Ascend, but the disciples stopped seeing him and He faded from their vivid memories?
That’s just terrible.
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billt9
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“None of us can be assured of our own salvation.”
Yes we can. Not on our own merit, which is complelety lacking, but on the merit of Jesus Christ, who is holy, perfect, and certain. Jesus told Martha that whoever believes in him has eternal life. I believe him.
Gospel means good news. The good news is that you can be certain of your salvation becuase it depends only on Jesus Christ who is certain.
PS. There are a lot of cafeteria Protestants too.
Yes we can. Not on our own merit, which is complelety lacking, but on the merit of Jesus Christ, who is holy, perfect, and certain. Jesus told Martha that whoever believes in him has eternal life. I believe him.
Gospel means good news. The good news is that you can be certain of your salvation becuase it depends only on Jesus Christ who is certain.
PS. There are a lot of cafeteria Protestants too.
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PRmerger
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estesbob
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Unless you believe in universalism then you agree with Catholics that we have to do something to obtain salvation. I suspect you say that it is a one time thing,all we have to do is accept Jesus as our Savior(which of course is a work) but there really is no scriptural basis for that nor did anyone believe this the first 1500 years of Christianity. Jesus loved us so much he gives us free will and allow us to not only accept him as our Savior any time up until our death but also to reject him. Actions speak louder than words. We accept Jesus as our Savior by acknowledging that he is, putting our faith in his and obeying God laws
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elvisman
Guest
Oh, Radical – where to begin? Let’s start with Scripture - then I’ll educate you from the words of the Early Church on just how Catholic it truly was:right, the glaringly obvious lack of mention of Mary in the first two centuries, the glaringly obvious lack of use of the term “priest” wrt any minister of the church in those first two centuries, the glaringly obvious lack of a unified belief in a real somatic presence (until after it was advocated by the 4th century Antiochian school) and add to that the glaringly obvious lack of a belief in a real somatic presence by Augustine, the glaringly obvious lack of banking and trading in grace as if it was a common commodity and the glaringly obvious lack of a monarchical bishop in parts on the empire during the first centuries…yep, the “Catholicity” of the earliest church is as glaringly obvious as the magnificence of the emperor’s new clothes.
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In 1 Cor. 11:27-30, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly: “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”
This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only “a symbol”.
NO** mention of Mary in the first 2 centuries?? Ever heard of a little document called, “The Protoevangelum of James” (AD 145)?? It talks about Mary’s Perpetual Virginity and her Immaculate Conception.**
Irenaeus (circa, A.D. 185)
“Eve, however, was disobedient; and when yet a virgin, she did not obey…. having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race…. Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith.”
No mention of the The Real Presence in the first 2 centuries? Oh, REALLY??
Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus
He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body**, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. (Against Heresies 5:2 A.D. 189]).**
Clement of Alexandria
"Eat my flesh" [Jesus] says, “and drink my blood.” The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 A.D. 191]).
Hmmm - sounds pretty darn CATHOLIC to me . . .
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elvisman
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Augustine denied the Real Presence? Is that a FACT??right, the glaringly obvious lack of mention of Mary in the first two centuries, the glaringly obvious lack of use of the term “priest” wrt any minister of the church in those first two centuries, the glaringly obvious lack of a unified belief in a real somatic presence (until after it was advocated by the 4th century Antiochian school) and add to that the glaringly obvious lack of a belief in a real somatic presence by Augustine, the glaringly obvious lack of banking and trading in grace as if it was a common commodity and the glaringly obvious lack of a monarchical bishop in parts on the empire during the first centuries…yep, the “Catholicity” of the earliest church is as glaringly obvious as the magnificence of the emperor’s new clothes.
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Augustine on the Real Presence:
That bread** which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ (Sermons 227 A.D. 411]).**
What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (ibid. 272).
Early Church Fathers On the Priesthood:
Clement of Rome - Epistle to the Corinthian Church in AD 95**:**
**“The high priest has been given his own special services, the priests have been assigned their own place, and the Levites have their special ministrations enjoined on them. The layman is bound by the ordinances of the laity.” **
Tertullian - AD 200
"The supreme priest (that is the Bishop) has the right of conferring baptism: after him the presbyters and deacons, but only with the Bishop’s authority. Otherwise the laity also have the right…how much more is the discipline of reverence and humility incumbent upon laymen (since it also befits their superiors)…It would be idle for us to suppose that what is forbidden to PRIESTS is allowed to the laity. The distinction between the order of clergy and the people has been established by the authority of the Church."
Cyprian of Carthage
"If Christ Jesus our Lord and God is Himself the High Priest of God the Father, and first offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father, and commanded this to be done in remembrance of Himself, then assuredly the priest acts truly in Christ’s place when he reproduces what Christ did, and he then offers a true and complete sacrifice to God the Father****, if he begins to offer as he sees Christ Himself has offered."**
Here’s a clue: Try actually STUDYING the Early Church and what they believed before embarrassing yourself any further . . .
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billt9
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PRmerger
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'Tis true enough. :sad_yes:I suspect that is why you are Catholic and I am Protestant.
But do you deny the Scriptures that state that “even the demons believe”?
What say you to that? Belief, then, is not enough?
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CMatt25
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Hi Pat, I understand. And I understand the belief of a person doing whatever it is they are told when a person believes in the infallible authority of another person in teaching matters of faith without err. But here’s just one example where it might get dicey when we start judging. Say someone says to another. You face hell unless you repent because you missed Mass on some weekday where a bishop had a rule that such and such a day was a HDofO. Yet a Catholic living somewhere else might not be under the same obligation. Maybe the person doesn’t see in Scripture where Christ has placed such a yoke around their neck. Keeping the Sabbath holy. Yes. But the person might see Christ protesting when there are a lot of detailed rules. As He did with the Pharisees. So maybe they don’t believe it’s a mortal sin to disobey the bishop on a rule they don’t see spelled out in Scripture. Or don’t believe God is going to condemn one Catholic to hell for disobeying a bishop by not attending Mass on that one weekday. While in another diocese a Catholic wasn’t even under such an obligation.
Or maybe a Cafeteria Catholic reads the Bible. Sees where fasting from time to time is a good thing. But certainly does not see where it has to be on this specific day and that day. And where 1 full meal/2 smaller ones not surpassing a full one is a fast. Or if you are 14 you abstain. But at 13 you can go get a Big Mac.
Or take these words. “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.” Which sounds to me if someone believed this at one time but then does not, then they can not be saved. We are not to judge who goes to hell. Yet we are judging who can not be saved?
So as far as I go, I try not to to even bother judging who could not be saved and therefore going to hell while I still have my own eye specks to pluck out and hands and feet to cut off.
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billt9
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I do not believe in universalism (or Calvinism); Jesus is the only way to the Father. I do agree we have to accept (or reject) God’s offer of salvation by either accepting and trusting Jesus, or not. Jesus asked Peter “who do you say that I am.” Jesus asked Martha “do you believe me?”
Accepting God’s gift of salvation which I did not earn and do not merit is hardly a “work” on my part. I agree with free will. You either accept the gift of salvation or you don’t. You either believe Jesus or you don’t.
As I understand it, you say its belief plus actions {obeying].
Unfortunately, our actions always come up short; only Jesus’ don’t. Of course God wants good works; actually, God requires good works. We were created to do good works. Ephesians 2:10. All Christians will produce good works as a result of their salvation, but not as the cause of their salvation. Jesus did it all.
How well do you “obey God’s laws?” How many (much) of God’s laws do we have to obey to make it? How “short” can we be and still be OK? When the Apostle Peter asks me at the gate “why should I let you in?” (I know this is a metaphor
) my only answer is “Christ died for me.”“Why do you call me good? There is none good but God?”
“There is none righteous, no, not one, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” “Who will save me from this body of sin and death [Apostle Paul, and he wasn’t modestly saying he was the worst of all sinners just to make us feel better]?” “Thanks be to God who gives me the victory through Jesus Christ.”
He is risen indeed.
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