Should "Cafeteria Catholics" just become Protestant?

[CMatt25]

Unless you believe in universalism then you agree with Catholics that we have to do something to obtain salvation. I suspect you say that it is a one time thing,all we have to do is accept Jesus as our Savior(which of course is a work) but there really is no scriptural basis for that nor did anyone believe this the first 1500 years of Christianity. Jesus loved us so much he gives us free will and allow us to not only accept him as our Savior any time up until our death but also to reject him. Actions speak louder than words. We accept Jesus as our Savior by acknowledging that he is, putting our faith in his and obeying God laws

I asked a Protestant friend of mine yesterday about this 1500 yrs thing that keeps popping up. And she said what I asked made absolutely no sense to her whatsoever. I’m not sure but I think she might say she did not personally know every Christian that existed in those 1500 yrs. And I know she doesn’t put much stock in ECF writings.

 

[estesbob]

I asked a Protestant friend of mine yesterday about this 1500 yrs thing that keeps popping up. And she said what I asked made absolutely no sense to her whatsoever. I’m not sure but I think she might say she did not personally know every Christian that existed in those 1500 yrs. And I know she doesn’t put much stock in ECF writings.

Of course it makes no sense to her. She is a Protestant. If she she understood that her church was created out of whole cloth by a man 1500 years after Christ rose from the dead she would be Catholic.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, Matt, that doesn’t say much for your friend’s wanting to truly know truth, does it?

“Doesn’t put much stock in the ECF”. Why not? Because what they say casts doubts on what she wants to believe?

It seems to me that you’re saying something along this line --please correct me if I’m wrong. . .

"Before 1600 and the fracturing of Christianity, we know that there only existed the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church. There were also small groups of heretical factions which claimed and practiced different things, but they also differered from each other, so that one group which might claim that the Church was wrong on infant baptism believed that the Church was RIGHT on the Real presence, whereas another group would say that the Church was WRONG on the Real Presence but RIGHT on infant baptism. Therefore, even the small heretical factions never were in agreement even with each other in many major areas of doctrine.

BUT because we don’t know personally everyone who lived from AD 33 to AD 1600, we are going to posit that there existed some, perhaps many, who while nominally members of the Catholic Church somehow mysteriously all disbelieved EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS they thought the Church was WRONG on, and all believed EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS they thought the Church was RIGHT on, and one belief was that since no one Church was 'the real thing", one could be anything, do anything, provided one had the CORE BELIEFS INSIDE ONESELF EXACTLY RIGHT EACH FOR HIMSELF OR HERSELF. . .which you would know because “THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD TEACH YOU SECRETLY”.

It appears that CMATT believes that these people, whom he believes also exist today, are the “REAL CHRISTIANS” of an INVISIBLE CHURCH who can be also at one and the same time members of ANY CHURCH or even NO CHURCH AT ALL, because they believe in the CORE BELIEFS which are EXACTLY THE SAME which the CATHOLIC CHURCH is wrong on. HOWEVER, in today’s MODERN society, the one core belief which is ‘exactly the same’ is that it must be “TRUE FOR THE PERSON” but not necessarily TRUE FOR ALL PEOPLE. If the Holy Spirit says it is all right for MATT to do something which the Church says is wrong, or to hold a belief that the Church says is not correct, then Matt MUST hold that belief because it is from the HOLY SPIRIT. But Matt does not try to convince EVERYBODY to hold that belief, not unless the HOLY SPIRIT tells them to.

Am I getting it correct, Matt?

 

[CMatt25]

Of course it makes no sense to her. She is a Protestant. If she she understood that her church was created out of whole cloth by a man 1500 years after Christ rose from the dead she would be Catholic.

Yeah that’s my point. She has different beliefs on some details than you do along your of faith walk. Cafeteria Catholics might too. No everyone might not be right on every single detail. But that’s why it’s called faith.

 

[estesbob]

I do not believe in universalism (or Calvinism); Jesus is the only way to the Father. I do agree we have to accept (or reject) God’s offer of salvation by either accepting and trusting Jesus, or not. Jesus asked Peter “who do you say that I am.” Jesus asked Martha “do you believe me?”

Accepting God’s gift of salvation which I did not earn and do not merit is hardly a “work” on my part. I agree with free will. You either accept the gift of salvation or you don’t. You either believe Jesus or you don’t.

Actually you do not appear to believe in free will as you believe that free will is a one-time thing and that God only allows us accept his gift of salvation but not reject it. And accepting God salvation is an action on our part and is a work no matter how you want to parse it. The only difference between the false doctrine of once saved always saved and universalism is Protestants require one more act of works than than universalists do

As I understand it, you say its belief plus actions {obeying].

That is what has been the unchanging teaching of Scripture ,tradition and the Church for the last 2000 years

Unfortunately, our actions always come up short; only Jesus’ don’t. Of course God wants good works; actually, God requires good works. We were created to do good works. Ephesians 2:10. All Christians will produce good works as a result of their salvation, but not as the cause of their salvation. Jesus did it all.

Well of course they come up short-however that does not mean we are not required to obey God to the best of our ability and repent and confess when we knowingly reject him.

How well do you “obey God’s laws?” How many (much) of God’s laws do we have to obey to make it? How “short” can we be and still be OK? When the Apostle Peter asks me at the gate “why should I let you in?” (I know this is a metaphor) my only answer is “Christ died for me.”

The which he will reply “that’s nice, but when I was hungry you gave me not to eat, when I was thirsty you gave me not to drink , when I was weary you gave me not to rest”

“Why do you call me good? There is none good but God?”

Again the misataken assumption that since we cant be perfect we dont even have to try.

“There is none righteous, no, not one, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” “Who will save me from this body of sin and death [Apostle Paul, and he wasn’t modestly saying he was the worst of all sinners just to make us feel better]?” “Thanks be to God who gives me the victory through Jesus Christ.”

He is risen indeed.

He is indeed risen-and far to often rejected, even by those who claim to know him

 

[estesbob]

Yeah that’s my point. She has different beliefs on some details than you do along your of faith walk. Cafeteria Catholics might too. No everyone might not be right on every single detail. But that’s why it’s called faith.

Yes , and her beliefs are wrong. Just as the beliefs of cafeteria Catholics are wrong. You seem to believe that all is an important is that somebody believe something and that makes everything okay. In this world there is no need for church-Catholic or otherwise.They wake up in the morning, decide what is right and amazingly you find out that their spiritual beliefs just happen to fall right in line with their political and their secular beliefs. Too often people create a God in their own image and likeness

 

[estesbob]

CORE BELIEFS INSIDE ONESELF EXACTLY RIGHT EACH FOR HIMSELF OR HERSELF. . .which you would know because “THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD TEACH YOU SECRETLY”.

?

Which is nothing more than warned over Gnosticism.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi Pat, I understand. And I understand the belief of a person doing whatever it is they are told when a person believes in the infallible authority of another person in teaching matters of faith without err.

I think that you have a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching,Friend. Our belief is not in the “infallible authority of another* person* in teaching matters of faith without err.” It is a belief in the authority of that divine office.

Incidentally, you seem to believe in the authority of that divine office as well, each and every time you quote Scripture. “We walk by faith”, for example. How do you know that this is true? Because this divine office, the Magisterium of the CC, has discerned that this is theopneustos.

When you profess that there is One God, and that He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that is because this divine office has declared it so. You would not know it for any other reason except the Church has told you this is true. You accept its infallible authority on this matter.

 

[rinnie]

Why? Because we are talking about matters of faith and belief.

Rinnie, what I believe is Protestant Christians and Catholic Christians, Cafeteria or not, have a unity in Him which is far greater than any differences we might have. He breaks down walls among diverse peoples of the world. He calls himself the Truth and shall come again.

Peace.

But this is about Cafeteria Catholics not Protestants Matt. You are not getting the picture here at all.

To be Catholic you must agree that the Catholic Church is led by the Holy Spirit and if the Church teaches it, ITs So. Case closed.

It is not saying are Protestants cafeteria Catholics. We are talking of ourself here Matt. I cannot go against the teachings of my Church, No offense Matt but you can.

No disrespect please, but if I were a Protestant and my Preacher told me this or that I would say what power do you have given to you that God did not give me also. You guys claim to have the same power. ALL THE TIME. Actually if I felt the way you guys did, what does the Church do for me that I cannot acheive myself.

In the RCC we are talking about a whole different thing. The Priest and Pope and Bishops DO HAVE THE AUTHORITY do tell me whats what. I DO believe this to be true. I KNOW this is true. DO you see the difference here.

So to know the truth and not accept it, is not the same of not knowing the truth at all. A Cafeteria Catholic has the same truth given to them. They just don’t believe it. But that is their choice to obey or disobey the word of God. But it is given to them. I don’t know the problem, if they just don’t want to hear it, or if they just don’t want to believe it. But it is given to them.

They have the Grace of God to accept it because God says he will never give you more then you can handle. But it is not the fault of the Christ if people that cannot accept one of his teachings do not pray constantly for his grace to open their eyes and accept it. Grace is there. ALL you have to do is ask.

But where is this unity Matt that you claim we have in eachother. I do not see it. Yes we have a unity in the truth that is accepted, but what about the truth that is rejected? Yes our unity in CHrist’s truth is our common ground. But what about our separation in Christ’s truth that is rejected by the protestant Church. The bible said we are to be perfectly united together with Christ in his ONE TRUTH CHURCH. We are not. IF so we would all be Catholic.

 

[rinnie]

Yeah that’s my point. She has different beliefs on some details than you do along your of faith walk. Cafeteria Catholics might too. No everyone might not be right on every single detail. But that’s why it’s called faith.

Where did Christ teach us that our faith would separate us from one another.

Now you are saying not everyone might be right on every single detail. OH now we are getting somewhere.

The RCC claims it IS THE PILLAR OF ALL TRUTH. Does your Church claim that it is the Pillar of all truth. Does it claim that it is the Church that was started by Christ on Pentecost. Does you Church claim that it is indeed led by the Holy Spirit and IS CORRECT ON EVERY SINGLE DETAIL. IF not? You must ask yourself? What am I doing here. I sure would.

I would indeed want the CHURCH that does at least MAKE THIS CLAIM. That can show me proof. Not a church that will tell me point blank it cannot make this claim.

 

[PRmerger]

So as far as I go, I try not to to even bother judging who could not be saved and therefore going to hell while I still have my own eye specks to pluck out and hands and feet to cut off.

Well then, dear friend, this puts you not in the “Cafeteria Catholic” line, but rather in the “Faithful Catholic” line.

No Catholic ought to be telling anyone he’s going to hell.

“Strive to enter” should be our mantra.

As Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft says (paraphrasing): God is not a statistician who tells us the demographics of hell.

Who’s going there is none of our business.

 

[PRmerger]

Say someone says to another. You face hell unless you repent because you missed Mass on some weekday where a bishop had a rule that such and such a day was a HDofO. Yet a Catholic living somewhere else might not be under the same obligation.

So many thoughts on this!

Firstly, I would advise this person not to use the words “you face hell”. No one knows if one’s face will turn in eternity to hell.

Secondly, if you’re a parent you might understand this analogy: I have different rules for different children. My oldest may be allowed to drive at 16, but my next may not be allowed to drive until 18. Do you deny me that right to discern for each of my children what age they can drive?

Maybe the person doesn’t see in Scripture where Christ has placed such a yoke around their neck. Keeping the Sabbath holy. Yes. But the person might see Christ protesting when there are a lot of detailed rules.

Are you a sports fan? Have you seen the “detailed rules” on infield flies?

I think if sports warrant a rule book thicker than our Bible, then it’s not too much to understand that religion, given our wayward species, requires at least as many.

As He did with the Pharisees.

I thought Jesus told his disciples to obey them?

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 13:17[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[CMatt25]

Well, Matt, that doesn’t say much for your friend’s wanting to truly know truth, does it?

“Doesn’t put much stock in the ECF”. Why not? Because what they say casts doubts on what she wants to believe?

It seems to me that you’re saying something along this line --please correct me if I’m wrong. . .

"Before 1600 and the fracturing of Christianity, we know that there only existed the Catholic (and Orthodox) Church. There were also small groups of heretical factions which claimed and practiced different things, but they also differered from each other, so that one group which might claim that the Church was wrong on infant baptism believed that the Church was RIGHT on the Real presence, whereas another group would say that the Church was WRONG on the Real Presence but RIGHT on infant baptism. Therefore, even the small heretical factions never were in agreement even with each other in many major areas of doctrine.

BUT because we don’t know personally everyone who lived from AD 33 to AD 1600, we are going to posit that there existed some, perhaps many, who while nominally members of the Catholic Church somehow mysteriously all disbelieved EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS they thought the Church was WRONG on, and all believed EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS they thought the Church was RIGHT on, and one belief was that since no one Church was 'the real thing", one could be anything, do anything, provided one had the CORE BELIEFS INSIDE ONESELF EXACTLY RIGHT EACH FOR HIMSELF OR HERSELF. . .which you would know because “THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD TEACH YOU SECRETLY”.

It appears that CMATT believes that these people, whom he believes also exist today, are the “REAL CHRISTIANS” of an INVISIBLE CHURCH who can be also at one and the same time members of ANY CHURCH or even NO CHURCH AT ALL, because they believe in the CORE BELIEFS which are EXACTLY THE SAME which the CATHOLIC CHURCH is wrong on. HOWEVER, in today’s MODERN society, the one core belief which is ‘exactly the same’ is that it must be “TRUE FOR THE PERSON” but not necessarily TRUE FOR ALL PEOPLE. If the Holy Spirit says it is all right for MATT to do something which the Church says is wrong, or to hold a belief that the Church says is not correct, then Matt MUST hold that belief because it is from the HOLY SPIRIT. But Matt does not try to convince EVERYBODY to hold that belief, not unless the HOLY SPIRIT tells them to.

Am I getting it correct, Matt?

My friend seeks the truth as we all are on our faith walks. No it’s not because ECFs cast doubt on what she wants to believe. She searches Scripture in her discernment of trying to determine what it is she is to believe.

Not exactly correct Tantum. Christians don’t believe the EXACT same things. Just plugging along on their faith walk without sight. Striving to follow their consciences. Where within those consciences is their “most secret core”. Where they are “alone with God whose voice echoes”. (CCC1776) Striving to “always obey” their conscience so as not “to act against it” and “condemn” themselves. (CCC 1790) Exercising their “right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions”. (CCC 1782)

So united in a belief in Him, all just striving to do their best to reach and know the truth, Tantum.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes , and her beliefs are wrong. Just as the beliefs of cafeteria Catholics are wrong. You seem to believe that all is an important is that somebody believe something and that makes everything okay. In this world there is no need for church-Catholic or otherwise.They wake up in the morning, decide what is right and amazingly you find out that their spiritual beliefs just happen to fall right in line with their political and their secular beliefs. Too often people create a God in their own image and likeness

Well I’ll grant if someone believes their beliefs are the only possible correct ones, that I guess they might then end up thinking they know for certain the beliefs of everyone else are wrong. I don’t know if people do this either because they have a need to think that way to make themselves feel better about their own faith beliefs or for whatever other reason. All I know for certain is I’m not wired to think that way. I try to humble myself like a little child when it comes to whose faith and belief is the greatest.

 

[CMatt25]

I think that you have a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching,Friend. Our belief is not in the “infallible authority of another* person* in teaching matters of faith without err.” It is a belief in the authority of that divine office.

Incidentally, you seem to believe in the authority of that divine office as well, each and every time you quote Scripture. “We walk by faith”, for example. How do you know that this is true? Because this divine office, the Magisterium of the CC, has discerned that this is theopneustos.

When you profess that there is One God, and that He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that is because this divine office has declared it so. You would not know it for any other reason except the Church has told you this is true. You accept its infallible authority on this matter.

Yes I know, Pat, teaching separates the human man from the office. I also know some Protestants might teach God could have chosen whatever purpose He wanted for the Church. Including at the time formulating Scripture.

 

[guanophore]

Oh no Guan I apologize for your misunderstanding.

I have read this statement of yours several times, and I have to tell you, it makes no sense to me at all. A person should not apologize if they are not responsible. You are not responsible for anyone else’s misundersanding.

If the other person does not understand because you have not communicated well, then the thing to do is communicate more effectively, or apologize that you have not communicated well.

You are not responsible for my inablity to understand, so don’t apologize.

Oh sure you might be somewhat confusing at times using quotation marks and such.

Thank you for the feedback. Please bring it to my attention if I am confusing in the future.

Perhaps even comparing Cafeteria Catholics to Protestants.  After all of that though, what I meant is you do seem to still recognize the Church teaches a Catholic baptized in the Church is a Catholic.

Yes, the Church said the same about all the first Protestants, who were bapitzed Catholics in rebellion against the Church teachings.

Guan, not all of these Catholics, whether Cafeteria or lapsed, claim or pretend to believe all the Church teaches. So of course they can be light to the world based on their fath and what they believe.

I fail to see how someone can be light and salt to the world while living a lie. If someone claims to be Catholic, then they are claiming they accept all the the Church believes and teaches. If they claim they are Catholic, yet reject Catholicism, it seems disingenous.

Guan if one disagrees with a faith teaching, one can have a tendency to disobey. Instead of obeying something they disagree with. We are talking faith beliefs.

I would say that humans have a tendency to disobey even when they agree. It is the sin nature, or as my Latin brethren call it “concupiscence”.

You are talking about one’s personal perceptions about what to believe.

I am talking about God’s commandments. Jesus said if we love Him, we will keep His commandments.

Not whether you disobey lets say the speed limit by driving 100 mph in a 50 mph zone just because you disagree with the posted legal speed limit. When you read the speed limit, there is only one way to interpret the writing on the sign. 50 does not read 100. But faith and belief is a different realm and reality.

Only if you are a relativist. A relativist denies that there is a speed limit sign, or if it is there, it does not necessarily apply to oneself. Such a person might say something like “there are a lot of things in Scripture…”

 But it's just a given to me that a believer in God along their lifelong faith journey and studies, is making room for Him as they embark on their walk.  So I might never understand the dfficulty you have with the concept.

Maybe not. In my mind, it seems that, if you want to get close to someone, you will listen to what they have to say. If you don’t listen to what they have already said, why would they say more?

Sometimes as in the “Footprints” poem, Christ is even carrying me I believe.

.

I pray so, CMatt, because wide is the road on the path to destruction. It is fully populated by relativists.

 

[CMatt25]

But this is about Cafeteria Catholics not Protestants Matt. You are not getting the picture here at all.

To be Catholic you must agree that the Catholic Church is led by the Holy Spirit and if the Church teaches it, ITs So. Case closed.

In the RCC we are talking about a whole different thing. The Priest and Pope and Bishops DO HAVE THE AUTHORITY do tell me whats what. I DO believe this to be true. I KNOW this is true. DO you see the difference here.

But where is this unity Matt that you claim we have in eachother. I do not see it. Yes we have a unity in the truth that is accepted, but what about the truth that is rejected? Yes our unity in CHrist’s truth is our common ground. But what about our separation in Christ’s truth that is rejected by the protestant Church. The bible said we are to be perfectly united together with Christ in his ONE TRUTH CHURCH. We are not. IF so we would all be Catholic.

I know Rinnie. I just sometimes might get the picture confused because some say Cafeteria Catholics are like Protestants protesting. And yet I know to be a Catholic you must be baptized in the Church. Or confirmed or received into Her if you were properly baptized elsewhere. Now to be a most faithful fully practicing Catholic might indeed be another matter.

I know what the more fully faithful Catholics like yourself are talking about Rinnie. And yet I do see a difference between believing and actually knowing. I do know though you believe you know for certain.

The unity is in belief in HIm. I actually would have seen some of this unity had I attended ecumenical sunrises services yesterday on the beach. I’m not sure any Catholic priests participated though. I know yrs ago back in my small hometown they did at Thanksgiving services. The services were held in one of the churches. Which one would vary. It was beautiful to see the unity back then. The Catholic priest. Pastors of PCUSA, UMC, Baptist pastors, the United Church of Christ pastor, and some others, and members of all these congregations uniting in thanksgiving. Those were the predominant ones. We didn’t have for instance a Lutheran or Episcopal or some other churches in town.

 

[CMatt25]

Where did Christ teach us that our faith would separate us from one another.

Now you are saying not everyone might be right on every single detail. OH now we are getting somewhere.

The RCC claims it IS THE PILLAR OF ALL TRUTH. Does your Church claim that it is the Pillar of all truth. Does it claim that it is the Church that was started by Christ on Pentecost. Does you Church claim that it is indeed led by the Holy Spirit and IS CORRECT ON EVERY SINGLE DETAIL. IF not? You must ask yourself? What am I doing here. I sure would.

I would indeed want the CHURCH that does at least MAKE THIS CLAIM. That can show me proof. Not a church that will tell me point blank it cannot make this claim.

Yes but not sure we know just because of claims.

 

[rinnie]

Matt a cafeteria catholic is usually someone who has never truly learned their faith.

While I do agree with you many Baptise thier Child in the fath, throw them in CCD and thats it.

My Dad lived his faith and never missed Church etc. My brother and my sister hardly go to Church they had 12 years of a Catholic Education. I went for 8 years of Catholic School.

I can put them to shame on what they know of the CC. SO could my Dad. Where is the blame Matt. My Dad never had a Education in the faith at all. Very little Sunday School. He learned it all studying it on his own and by asking the Priest etc.

I learned it from asking him and studying also. Same family Matt. Same Dad same Mom. Don’t you think God would say here is a mirror. What they are lacking is their desire to study and continue to learn. My Dad continue to study and learn until his death of 83.

He said that no matter how much you read the bible God had something else to teach you every single time you read it.

People blame the Church and the faith for their own faults. Always have, always will.

I bet you anything right now if I asked them what was missing in the Protestant Church they would not even know it was the Sacraments. How can the Catholic faith be blamed for this. Same School same teachings.

But I will tell you this, there will be a time they find themself back, and when they do they will see where they were wrong. They will find that they themself were the shortcomming not the teachings of the faith.

But they don’t seem to know enough to not miss church, but they do know the One True Church. I mean if they do make it its the Catholic Church. SO who do we blame here. My Dad and Mom because if you missed Church it was like missing school if you were sick you stayed in bed. Did not go out to play that day thats for sure.

Or do we blame the Church for not teaching them to Keep Holy the Lords Day. Because it was indeed taught to them.

That is what you call a Cafeteria Catholic Matt, People who do not feel the need to put GOd first in thier life. But don’t judge them, because trust me they will tell you to mind your own business and they are better Christians then you. Because when you call them on the truth they will switch it back on you. Cafeteria Catholics are very defensive People Matt. They don’t want you to preach to them. They want to be left alone. They will get to church when they are ready they sure don’t need you to tell them.

I don’t know what they are in most family’s. BUt I know what they are in mine. Very selfish spoiled people who when life did not go well for them they blamed my Parents. ANd my Parents were stupid enough to take blame they never deserved. ANd kept giving and giving and giving. My Parents were Saints.

That Matt is just an example of what they are in my family. Not all Catholic family’s.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes I know, Pat,

My name is not Pat. And while we are friends, and you did share your name with me, (and I my Personal Photo Albums with you) I don’t believe I reciprocated with my name.

This is Pat.