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Marfran
Guest
Actually they’re not. We breed these animals purposefully to live unnatural lives on the cement floors of intense confinement facilities (factory farms). There is nothing natural about a factory farm.
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Drawmack
Guest
I admit that I have not read the entire thread, I did watch the movie though. I would like to ask one question.
Realistically, what happens if tomorrow every human stops eating meat? How many companies close in an already flagging economy? What happens to the meat already on the shelves? What happens to all the animals currently in farms for consumption? What happens to the hundreds of thousands of people who make their livelihood in this industry? Is there, right now, enough vegetable stock in the food supply to feed all the humans?
Realistically, what happens if tomorrow no one anywhere in the world eats another bite of meat?
Realistically, what happens if tomorrow every human stops eating meat? How many companies close in an already flagging economy? What happens to the meat already on the shelves? What happens to all the animals currently in farms for consumption? What happens to the hundreds of thousands of people who make their livelihood in this industry? Is there, right now, enough vegetable stock in the food supply to feed all the humans?
Realistically, what happens if tomorrow no one anywhere in the world eats another bite of meat?
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Marfran
Guest
Realistically meat eating will not stop immediately. Like anything else there would be a gradual change. The change is occurring as we speak. Companies who produce animal products will start bringing in lines of plant-based products. A dairy company, seeing the writing on the wall, bought the company that produces Silk–the soy milk. Yes, a dairy company now owns Silk!!! Currently we are producing many plant resources that are fed to animals, not people. We will gradually start feeding people with these existing crops, as we stop breeding so many animals. Look how long it’s taking to get rid of cigarettes. And there is always changes of technology, or what products are popular to consumers, that affect product lines and businesses. What about the typewritter??? Does anyone still manufacture a typewritter??? An obsolete business and product. What happened to all those workers? Retrained, re-directed…
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Drawmack
Guest
Many of the crops grown for animal consumption cannot be fed to humans. Go ahead and cook up some nice feed corn on the cob for yourself if you don’t believe me.
You avoided the question, you didn’t answer it.
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Brendan
Guest
If you consider animals to be sentient, you are departing from Catholic Theology on the matter.
Humans and angels are the only creatures with Reason.
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Marfran
Guest
Say what??? The definition of sentient: knowing and perceiving; having awareness of surroundings and sensations.
Where in Catholic Theology does it say that animals are not capable of perceiving their environment, of feeling pain, discomfort etc.??? Where??? Ask any and all veterinarians if animals feel pain, or if they are aware of their environment. You will get a unanimous YES!
Who said anything about animals having the ability to reason, as in the human ability to reason?
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Marfran
Guest
I exactly answered your question. As people move away from an animal based diet things will gradually change. Your scenario is not realistic. People will not stop eating meat all at once.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I’m curious about this.
If everybody went vegan, what would we do with the domestic animals we now have? Kill them? Turn them loose? What?
Would we do anything to improve animals’ lives, or let them live with nature as it is?
I’m not sure how we would avoid killing creatures entirely, and maybe that’s acceptable, but I don’t know that it is. I kill a lot of bugs on my windshield everytime I drive anywhere in warm weather. Now and then motorists hit an animal. What do we do about that?
Farmers kill all kinds of creatures when they plow the soil. (not pretty) Rabbits, mice, rats, moles, chipmunks, snakes, groundhogs, gophers, bugs of every kind, etc, etc. Is this acceptable?
Is it acceptable to exclude animals from our crops, even if they would die as a consequence? Can we fence them out? We do take up some land when we do that, and, e.g., deer could starve for the lack of that forage.
Would we just leave the grass prairies to go back to the wild? They’re only good for grazing. Is that what we would do?
Is the use of insecticides acceptable? If so, under what circumstances?
Is it acceptable to kill predators that are dangerous to humans? If so, then what do we do with their bodies? Do we eat them or bury them or leave them lie for scavengers?
Should we take any steps to prevent animals from killing each other, or is it acceptable that they do?
If everybody went vegan, what would we do with the domestic animals we now have? Kill them? Turn them loose? What?
Would we do anything to improve animals’ lives, or let them live with nature as it is?
I’m not sure how we would avoid killing creatures entirely, and maybe that’s acceptable, but I don’t know that it is. I kill a lot of bugs on my windshield everytime I drive anywhere in warm weather. Now and then motorists hit an animal. What do we do about that?
Farmers kill all kinds of creatures when they plow the soil. (not pretty) Rabbits, mice, rats, moles, chipmunks, snakes, groundhogs, gophers, bugs of every kind, etc, etc. Is this acceptable?
Is it acceptable to exclude animals from our crops, even if they would die as a consequence? Can we fence them out? We do take up some land when we do that, and, e.g., deer could starve for the lack of that forage.
Would we just leave the grass prairies to go back to the wild? They’re only good for grazing. Is that what we would do?
Is the use of insecticides acceptable? If so, under what circumstances?
Is it acceptable to kill predators that are dangerous to humans? If so, then what do we do with their bodies? Do we eat them or bury them or leave them lie for scavengers?
Should we take any steps to prevent animals from killing each other, or is it acceptable that they do?
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Marfran
Guest
The domestic livestock does not live out a natural life span. Each different meat species lives for a number of months, not 20 years until killed for food. Not everyone will turn vegan, all at once, on the same day, leaving a large amount of animals that we won’t know what to do with. You won’t have to turn them loose. They will be killed and someone will eat them, no doubt!
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Brendan
Guest
An animal SENSES, yes. It does not KNOW. Knowledge is as aspect of Reason. An animal’s soul is what Aquinas referred to as a ‘sensitive’ soul. That is a material ( non-spiritual) soul that can animate the body in response to sensual stimuli.
But it cannot have knowledge, simply memory.
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Marfran
Guest
We are discussing the unnatural imposition of humans into the lives of animals. We are discussing what we as humans do to animals. The wild animal will live the life that was intended for it, and may discuss the realities and ethics pertinent to their lives, and their behavior to each other, on their own forum!
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Marfran
Guest
You said: QUOTE “If you consider animals to be sentient, you are departing from Catholic Theology on the matter.”
That statement makes no sense. Animals are capable of pain and awareness of their surroundings, and nowhere in Catholic Theology does it state otherwise. And what do your statements have to do with the HSUS video Eating Mercifully? Please make a relevant connection to the video.
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Spiritoftruth
Guest
…like the fishes of the sea, or the birds of the air, they were put here for man. Man has the responsibility to manage wisely all of God’s creation. IMHO of course
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Ridgerunner
Guest
So, no wild hogs running around. That’s good, since they’re terribly dangerous. They, and cattle, sheep and goats, of course, will have to be kept up until they’re all eaten, along with their offspring. I don’t know what the lifespan of a hog is, but for cattle it can be as long as 20 years, though mid-teens is more common.
Hogs and most cattle can definitely live in the wild, and if you turn them loose, they proliferate (hogs especially). I’m not sure about goats and I’m pretty sure sheep can’t live in the wild.
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Drawmack
Guest
Sheep can live in the wild, but are the vegans ready for the extreme proliferation of wolves and mountain lions that would happen if a bunch of sheep were released?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
So, it’s okay for animals to kill animals and eat them, but not okay for humans to do it. Is it okay for animals to eat humans, or should we take steps to prevent that, like killing predators?
Wish somebody would address what we do with the grasslands. Just leave them for the buffalo, elk, deer and the wild cattle and horses that manage to escape? (Actually, I guess wild horses and some wild cattle are already out on the prairies, aren’t they?)
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redhen
Guest
Not using the modern factory farming method. This is just my opinion of course, since as an agnostic I have no absolute moral measuring stick.
Is ok for fire to burn your hand? Is it ok for the winter weather to give you frostbite?
The Bureau of Land Management tries to keep these populations low by curtailing their range area and with routine culls. A congressional bill passed last week that averted a proposed BLM cull that would have rounded up and slaughtered 30,000 wild horses and burros. azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/07/18/20090718wildhorses0718.html Instead, they will be sterilized, and the present adoption plan stepped up.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Presumably, the sheep would head for the grasslands, so the wolves and mountain lions would tend to concentrate there as well. I wouldn’t want to be driving from, e.g., Wichita to Denver through that and have a flat tire, and I SURE wouldn’t want to live in a small town in north Texas or in the suburbs of Oklahoma City.
Ulp! Come to think of it, I remember the stories of the old original settlers where I live, and people were sometimes killed by mountain lions. They were pretty aggressive, too; coming through peoples’ windows in the middle of the night and such, grabbing children playing in front of their houses. Nobody can really farm this area successfully, (it’s cattle country) so people here would be well advised to move to cities or those areas that are row cropped for miles and miles in every direction.
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Drawmack
Guest
From one deer I got enough meet for a family of three for nearly two months, and pelt that was turned into a very nice winter coat and a nice decoration for my wall.
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