Should men have their ears pierced?

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Catholic Dude:

As for the egyptians, we know from the Bible they worsipped false gods and did some satanic stuff.

if they didnt believe in our God, they didnt believe in our devil. besides, hundreds of cultures all over the world have worshipped false gods in ancient times because they had no idea about God. the greeks, romans, norse, celts, ect. to equate the wearing of earrings with stuff like this is one of the biggest stretches i’ve ever seen.
Catholic Dude:

Im not saying you are evil for doing it, Im getting at the bigger picture outlook people dont know God or who they are and turn to things that are a slippery slope. Earrings arent just in the ears anymore…
Is it no big deal to go around dressing up animals, talking to your parents on a first name basis, going around with orange hair, or calling something someone is wearing a “nice dress” when most of the time most of their body is “exposed”, I could go on and on.

i still fail to see how piercings, whether they be in the ear, nose, lip, naval, distance us from God in the least. and now someone with dyed hair is bad too? funny…i just went to the big confirmation mass at the cathedral in portland on friday and the archbishop didnt keep the guy with dyed hair from getting confirmed.
Catholic Dude:

I dont know where it came from, I dont think levi-strauss was around yet.

if you dont know what you’re talking about, dont talk about it. i know the history of the kilt (where it came from, how it developed into its present form) which was why i used it as an example.
Catholic Dude:

No, but when men wear them there is an uneasy history to it. For example many ear and nose rings were a direct indication of slavery. It was a physical mark on the body that was used as if they were separating cattle instead of humans.

times change. a lot of black people also use the n word when they talk to each other now.

 

[JoeMike]

I selected the third option (“wrong”) not because I feel that way, but because it was the closest choice.

I think earrings on men look stupid. Not wrong, just stupid.

 

[fix]

john doran:

i assume that when you ask me if the past use of togas is a “reason” for their reintroduction, what you are really asking me is if it would be a good reason. because it’s obviously a reason, simpliciter.

I am asking if there is any logic behind it?

i don’t know if it’s a good reason. why don’t you tell me - after all, that’s what i’m trying to understand here: what you think are good and bad reasons for cultural practices and change.

I am not in favor of men wearing earrings. It should be your position to prove to us why it is legitimate, or reasonable for that introduction.

i don’t know for sure, but i suspect it’s because the men who wear them like wearing them.

Yes, but why do they like it?

but whatever. why do you think they were reintroduced at this time? and what’s wrong with that reason?

I have no idea why they were introduced. I think it is a bad idea because it helps blur gender identities to a greater extent then we have done already.

fair enough. again, i ask you: what makes a cultural practice - new or otherwise - absurd?

1 : ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous
2 : having no rational or orderly relationship to human life : MEANINGLESS; also : lacking order or value

As a fad I find it absurd. I, also, find piercings absurd. They are ridiculously unreasonable. What is the reason for male earings? Is it to look more like a girl?

so what?

Is it a sound idea to confuse the genders?

yes. it is. both are examples of cultural fashions that changed. period.

if you think there’s something additionally important about the putative involvement of gender in this case, then you’re going to have to explain what it is and why it matters.

No, it is not. Men not wearing hats is not equal to men wearing ladies clothing or earrings.

You must explain why cross dressing is a good thing to introduce. The onus is on you to give reasons why we should accept the change.

that’s what protestants always say to us catholics when we tell them about our faith…

We are not speaking of objective truth, but matters of prudence.

ahh, but you have already disclaimed any appeal to morality. so that article is irrelevant; all of my examples are non-morally equivalent.

Ahh, but you compared pirecing with eating hamburgers. I pointed out that at some point one crosses the line and these issues become immoral acts.

unless, of course, you wish now to involve moral considerations. if so, no problem. just explain to me what’s immoral about men wearing earrings.

I never said earrings were immoral. I find them absurd. Piercings and tattos can become immoral.

 

[fix]

john doran:

sigh.

what if the history of the earring demonstrates that it was originally a male affectation and that women copied men? what then?

The issue is the here and now. Common experience shows us such devices are exclusively female in this culture. You most provide us an argument that shows it is reasonable for men to dress like women at this point in time.

what do you think of men who sit on the toilet to pee? are they unchristian?

What on earth is your point?

are they contributing to the decline of western civilization? is there a special place in gehenna reserved for them? what about men who wear pink? or men with long hair? or women with short hair, for that matter? or men who wear rings? or women who wear pants? or…

You are generalizing and using extremes to make your argument.

and why is it goofy? you keep saying that it is, but haven’t done anything to show why you think it other than that you personally either or both don’t understand it or just don’t like it.

Men dressing like women is goofy. Need I say more?

 

[rayne89]

fix:

Yes, but why do they like it?

I have no idea why they were introduced. I think it is a bad idea because it helps blur gender identities to a greater extent then we have done already.

What is the reason for male earings? Is it to look more like a girl?

Oh yeah, all those biker guys with earring want to look more like woman.

And I guess all women who wear pants want to look like men.

Your assuming a lot about peoples motives without really knowing them.

 

[fix]

rayne89:

Oh yeah, all those biker guys with earring want to look more like woman.

I think they use that look to be rebellious. Are you saying that men wearing earrings are rebelling? That may be true. What are they rebelling against? Gender identity?

And I guess all women who wear pants want to look like men.

Perhaps some do? Are you arguing all fashion change is unremarkable and without negative cultural influence?

Your assuming a lot about peoples motives without really knowing them.

Untrue. I asked a question. I am implying nothing of anyone. Is it unreasonable to assume that some men adopting female style adornments are trying to feminize themselves? I do not see how that is unreasonable to assume? Where is the line drawn?

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

fix:

Untrue. I asked a question. I am implying nothing of anyone. Is it unreasonable to assume that some men adopting female style adornments are trying to feminize themselves? I do not see how that is unreasonable to assume? Where is the line drawn?

no, it’s true. the fact that you’ve been repeatedly told otherwise and yet choose to ignore it proves it. the women wearing pants is the best example. it used to be unheard of for women to wear pants, but now nearly every woman in the country does so. i fail to see how this is not “masculine” and yet men wearing earrings is “feminine” when the men wearing earrings are not feminine.

 

[fix]

Rand Al'Thor:

no, it’s true. the fact that you’ve been repeatedly told otherwise and yet choose to ignore it proves it. the women wearing pants is the best example. it used to be unheard of for women to wear pants, but now nearly every woman in the country does so. i fail to see how this is not “masculine” and yet men wearing earrings is “feminine” when the men wearing earrings are not feminine.

I have been told by some that it is reasonable for men to wear earrings without reading a convincing argument, yet.

You are assuming all accept females wearing pants as reasonable. Even if in many cases, types of work etc, females wearing pants is reasonable, it does not axiomatically follow men wearing earrings is reasonable. Again, where is the line drawn?

 

[Sean.McKenzie]

Yeah, and he was a FreeMason too!!!

Looks like someone took that movie National Treasure too seriously. Thats all full of lies. I have not found any evidence supporting your claim.

 

[john_doran]

fix:

The issue is the here and now. Common experience shows us such devices are exclusively female in this culture.

but they’re not exclusively female since there are any number of men who also wear them.

what you’re arguing is that they ought to be exclusively female. and ***you ***have yet to offer me anything even remotely resembling a coherent bit of reasoning to support such an absurd claim.

fix:

You most provide us an argument that shows it is reasonable for men to dress like women at this point in time.

see above.

fix:

What on earth is your point?

my point is that if men wearing earrings is “dressing like a woman” and thus wrong or unreasonable, then a woman having short hair is a woman adopting a masculine tonsorial affectation, and thus also unreasonable. ditto for men who “pee like women”.

and if those things aren’t similarly wrong, why aren’t they?

fix:

You are generalizing and using extremes to make your argument.

what’s extreme about it? you haven’t given me any reason to suppose that the decline of society on which you blame male earring-wearers isn’t equally attributable to female short-hair-havers, and men-who-sit-to-pee.

fix:

Men dressing like women is goofy. Need I say more?

certainly not if you’re as uninterested in having a rational exchange as you so clearly seem to be.

 

[john_doran]

fix:

I am asking if there is any logic behind it?

sure. the people who wear them like to wear them.

is there any logic to people eating pizza? or peanut butter?

fix:

I am not in favor of men wearing earrings. It should be your position to prove to us why it is legitimate, or reasonable for that introduction.

it’s reasonable for people to wear stuff they enjoy wearing. unless there is a good reason not to wear it.

and your not liking them isn’t a reason of any kind not to wear them.

fix:

Yes, but why do they like it?

why do you like wearing the stuff you like wearing?

fix:

I have no idea why they were introduced. I think it is a bad idea because it helps blur gender identities to a greater extent then we have done already.

that’s absurd.

fix:

As a fad I find it absurd. I, also, find piercings absurd. They are ridiculously unreasonable. What is the reason for male earings? Is it to look more like a girl?

yeah, well i find the internet absurd as a fad. it is unreasonable. why would anyone want to go online? is it to look at porn?

fix:

Is it a sound idea to confuse the genders?

if you really, honestly are confused by men wearing earrings, then men wearing earrings is the least of your problems.

fix:

No, it is not. Men not wearing hats is not equal to men wearing ladies clothing or earrings.

yes it is, infinity. i win.

fix:

You must explain why cross dressing is a good thing to introduce. The onus is on you to give reasons why we should accept the change.

no, i mustn’t.

no, it’s not.

fix:

Ahh, but you compared pirecing with eating hamburgers. I pointed out that at some point one crosses the line and these issues become immoral acts.

sure. and “at some point” eating hamburgers becomes an immoral act, too. what’s your point?

 

[fix]

john doran:

but they’re not exclusively female since there are any number of men who also wear them.

But, that started only recently. Are you claiming men in America have worn earrings for decades? The change happended at some recent point in time.

what you’re arguing is that they ought to be exclusively female.

It is a fact. Did men wear earrings before it was started in the 1980s or whenever it recently began? It was exclusively female domain. Certainly you would concede that? How about nylons and eye liner? Are they now male accessories because some men use such things?

and ***you ***have yet to offer me anything even remotely resembling a coherent bit of reasoning to support such an absurd claim.

You have it backward. You must provide evidence men routinely wore female adornments prior to the recent usage. The suddem embrace of such things is absurd.

my point is that if men wearing earrings is “dressing like a woman” and thus wrong or unreasonable, then a woman having short hair is a woman adopting a masculine tonsorial affectation, and thus also unreasonable. ditto for men who “pee like women”.and if those things aren’t similarly wrong, why aren’t they?

Not all transitions are spontaneous or unreasonable. Are you claiming that any type of change is reasonable? When do women adopt a masculine sounding voice? Why would a man void sitting down if there were no medical disability? Some women with ultra short hair may be making the same statement that some men make by wearing an earring, I can’t say.

what’s extreme about it? you haven’t given me any reason to suppose that the decline of society on which you blame male earring-wearers isn’t equally attributable to female short-hair-havers, and men-who-sit-to-pee.

I have not blamed societal decline on male earring wearers. It may be a symptom of one aspect of decline.

certainly not if you you’re as uninterested in having a rational exchange as you so clearly seem to be.

If gender roles are as plastic as you imply, then I think my point is made. Where does it end?

 

[john_doran]

fix:

I have been told by some that it is reasonable for men to wear earrings without reading a convincing argument, yet.

and there’s been no convincing argument that it’s not reasonable.

fix:

You are assuming all accept females wearing pants as reasonable.

not true: we are assuming that any attempt to systematize or justify one’s disdain for female pant-wearing is so obviously and anachronistically nuts that trying to do the same thing for other similar dislikes is equally silly.

fix:

Even if in many cases, types of work etc, females wearing pants is reasonable, it does not axiomatically follow men wearing earrings is reasonable. Again, where is the line drawn?

i don’t know. but i can tell you where it’s not drawn: anywhere in the vicinity of men wearing earrings.

can you tell me where the line between night and day is drawn? or between fat and thin? or between tall and short? or between having hair and being bald?

 

[john_doran]

fix:

Not all transitions are spontaneous or unreasonable… Some women with ultra short hair may be making the same statement that some men make by wearing an earring, I can’t say.

that’s right. you can’t.

 

[fix]

john doran:

sure. the people who wear them like to wear them.

is there any logic to people eating pizza? or peanut butter?

Yes, there is logic to those acts. If people like to shave their heads and paint their faces blue, is that reasonable?

it’s reasonable for people to wear stuff they enjoy wearing. unless there is a good reason not to wear it.

Not all pleasure is good.

and your not liking them isn’t a reason of any kind not to wear them.

My reason is based in observing cultural trends and your reason seems to be based on a limbic response.

why do you like wearing the stuff you like wearing?

We all have tastes, that is not the issue. Not all tastes are reasonable, that is the issue.

that’s absurd.

Are you a parent?

yeah, well i find the internet absurd as a fad. it is unreasonable. why would anyone want to go online? is it to look at porn?

The internet has good and bad uses. Earrings can have good or bad uses. Men wearing earrings, imo, is a bad use.

if you really, honestly are confused by men wearing earrings, then men wearing earrings is the least of your problems.

I am not confused at all. It is those who wear such things that are confused. That is part of the problem.

yes it is, infinity. i win.

As logical as a man wearing an earring.

no, i mustn’t.

no, it’s not.

Indeed, because your argument is based on trendiness and pop acceptance, not propriety.

sure. and “at some point” eating hamburgers becomes an immoral act, too. what’s your point?

Eating is not immoral, unless done to access. The piercing fad is by and large about mutilation.

 

[fix]

john doran:

and there’s been no convincing argument that it’s not reasonable.

It is self eveident.

not true: we are assuming that any attempt to systematize or justify one’s disdain for female pant-wearing is so obviously and anachronistically nuts that trying to do the same thing for other similar dislikes is equally silly.

Not as silly as a man wearing female items and trying to defend it.

i don’t know. but i can tell you where it’s not drawn: anywhere in the vicinity of men wearing earrings.

That is the difference. You seem to have no standards and others do. It may be that simple.

can you tell me where the line between night and day is drawn? or between fat and thin? or between tall and short? or between having hair and being bald?

I can draw the line between male and female behavior and clothing. May be you could use some guidance?

 

[NFPfamily]

This thread is very interesting with many different aspects of piercing issues. I tend to think that if the piercings are done to attract certain people or to try to give a message (bad-boy image) in order to advertise illicit behavior, then it’s wrong.

I can relate my experience as a woman, in college, I was going through a “what the heck” kind of phase. One weekend, my friend and I went to get our belly buttons pierced (I know…:bigyikes: :tsktsk: :whacky: ). Well, I just thought it was all in fun, etc. It did get infected a couple of times (gross) and I found myself dressing more immodestly than usual, I guess to show it off. I came to realize this, regretted it, and took it out. All I had left was a small hole above my navel that wasn’t too noticeable, UNTIL (years later after getting married) I GOT PREGNANT! Can we say “Oh cute- look at your first stretch mark!” :crying:

 

[rayne89]

Fix -with all the issues out there your fixated on men with earrings.

What is the logic in anyone having their ears pierced? None -it doesn’t serve a functional purpose. Why is not ok just like something because of the way it looks, as long as it’s immodest or dangerous or something a long those lines.

Fashion has never been logical. I grew up in the 80’s. I knew plenty of guys in highschool with their ears pierced, none of them were trying to be feminine, or wanted to be feminine, or wanted to blur any gender lines. Putting a hole in your ear does not make you a transvestite, or a homosexual.

I work with guys who have thier ears pierced, they have girlfriends or wives. They don’t have gender issues.

You’d have had a field day with my husband back in highschool. Not only did he have an earring , he wore his hair long - I guess he was a regular cross dresser. He also wore a leather jacket with spikes -yikes - I guess he was a regular anti-social criminal. Nope -just a teenager expressing harmless individuality.

He’s a good guy and a good Catholic, and you need to find a hobby. (and occasionally he even takes a leak sitting down
“gasp” -just cause he feels like it. I guess I need to call a shrink huh? )

 

[fix]

rayne89:

Fix -with all the issues out there your fixated on men with earrings.

What is the logic in anyone having their ears pierced? None -it doesn’t serve a functional purpose. Why is not ok just like something because of the way it looks, as long as it’s immodest or dangerous or something a long those lines.

Fashion has never been logical. I grew up in the 80’s. I knew plenty of guys in highschool with their ears pierced, none of them were trying to be feminine, or wanted to be feminine, or wanted to blur any gender lines. Putting a hole in your ear does not make you a transvestite, or a homosexual.

I work with guys who have thier ears pierced, they have girlfriends or wives. They don’t have gender issues.

You’d have had a field day with my husband back in highschool. Not only did he have an earring , he wore his hair long - I guess he was a regular cross dresser. He also wore a leather jacket with spikes -yikes - I guess he was a regular anti-social criminal. Nope -just a teenager expressing harmless individuality.

He’s a good guy and a good Catholic, and you need to find a hobby. (and occasionally he even takes a leak sitting down
“gasp” -just cause he feels like it. I guess I need to call a shrink huh? )

No one has to respond to my arguments, but they did because it struck a chord. I very much disagree with your characterizations of adolescent fads as harmless. At times they may be a passing phase, but they are not always harmless.

The outlandish appearance of so many today is nothing to dismiss so lightly. I guess it comes down to those who value respect for our appearance and those who need to make a statement. Many times we grow up and many times we remain adolescents. Clothes, appearances, demeanor, all are important both in society and in our spiritual life.

Mutilating piercings, multiple tattoos, multi colored hair, anti social behavior are nothing to emulate or minimize.

 

[fix]

(and occasionally he even takes a leak sitting down
“gasp” -just cause he feels like it. I guess I need to call a shrink huh? )

Uhm, yea, I think this little remark has made the argument in support of my position. Thanks for the help.