Should women be treated as equals

[MagdalenaRita]

There’s a difference in acting like a man and asking to not be defined by their spouse in areas where it isn’t relevant, just like how men are granted that privilege. Your reply has nothing to do with what I was saying

Yes, I will agree with that there are times when it is not relevant whether or not a person is married.

What I as a non-feminist and someone who lived through the “call me Ms” movement have a problem with is that as women we are told we need to do, be or have all the wonderful same things as men or men should be or have all the horrible same things as women, such as:

If there had been a separate term for married men or if they were addressed as Mr Jane Smith just like how women were, feminists would not have bothered with Ms.

I remember very well when Ms was encouraged. It was a throw off anything that has anything to do with your marriage and find your independence. The divorce rate at that time skyrocketed.

Women and men, because of their different roles in life, are not always going to have everything exactly the same. Nor should they. The lines of male and female are becoming so blurred right now in our society that there is a terrible gender identity crisis happening among the youth. There is a difference between male and female and men and women’s roles. That was the reason for my response. That is why I said I am not a man, don’t treat me like a man.

The feminist movement is constantly comparing itself with what men have, a looking around rather than seeing the good that women have been graced with, so to me the title Ms implies, give me what they have because I am not happy with what I’ve got.

 

[edwest211]

Radical feminism has hurt women. It distorts their identity. It tells them what to do and what to think.

 

[Lea101]

Yes, I will agree with that there are times when it is not relevant whether or not a person is married.

Yup, and this would be why people choose to be referred to as Ms instead of Miss/Mrs. Some opt for Ms so they can use their first name instead I.e Ms Lea. My mom used this not because she didn’t care about her marriage, but because her last name (and her maiden name) was commonly mispronounced by the kids she taught. Ms, as I’m sure many would agree, is harmless.

as women we are told we need to do, be or have all the wonderful same things as men or men should be or have all the horrible same things as women, such as:

Lea101:

If there had been a separate term for married men or if they were addressed as Mr Jane Smith just like how women were, feminists would not have bothered with Ms.

I don’t really understand this part. I don’t think Miss/Mrs in itself is a horrible thing, or the idea that men should have an equivalent to be bad. I just think it’s ridiculous to have such a double standard since this doesn’t show that the couple is one unit, but rather the woman is under the man.

There’s nothing wrong with saying that women should have all the wonderful things as man, unless this ‘thing’ is inherently immoral (eg promiscuity). I believe in equal opportunity, for instance.

Women and men, because of their different roles in life, are not always going to have everything exactly the same. Nor should they. The lines of male and female are becoming so blurred right now in our society that there is a terrible gender identity crisis happening among the youth. There is a difference between male and female and men and women’s roles. That was the reason for my response. That is why I said I am not a man, don’t treat me like a man.

Again, this would be a very vague response to my point of equality. Why should a woman be referred to by their marital status, or take their husband’s name if they don’t want to? The examples brought up has nothing to do with men/women’s roles.

You would need to be specific when describing the necessary treatment since people have been using your argument to justify different treatment, even when the treatment is illogical and harmful. Extremist Muslims, for example, have used the concept of ‘men and women are different, so they can’t be treated the same’ to justify forcing women to cover up, obey husbands, not to walk by themselves etc.

So a vague concept of ‘different treatment’ isn’t really useful, since treatment can be something justifiable as different standards in sports, or something that isn’t like referring to a woman based on her marital status…or even something really harsh like not allowing women to get a job.

The average differences between males and females doesn’t justify the examples I gave, basically.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

My mom used this not because she didn’t care about her marriage, but because her last name (and her maiden name) was commonly mispronounced

I guess I don’t understand this. My name is Never pronounced correctly but I wouldn’t tell someone to call me Ms because of it.

I don’t think Miss/Mrs in itself is a horrible thing, or the idea that men should have an equivalent to be bad. I just think it’s ridiculous to have such a double standard since this doesn’t show that the couple is one unit, but rather the woman is under the man.

So it isn’t that Miss/Mrs/Ms is bad in and of themselves. It is the feminist idea that Ms is a title used to demonstrate a woman’s independence from her husband. The word itself doesn’t do anything but it is the idea that came behind it.

It would be just as bothersome if men were to come up with some new title that said I am independent of my wife, call me…

Again, this would be a very vague response to my point of equality. Why should a woman be referred to by their marital status, or take their husband’s name if they don’t want to?

We will probably just have to agree to disagree here. I see the not wanting to be identified with your husband as a disunity. Kind of a, I am married but let’s not tell everyone.

There’s nothing wrong with saying that women should have all the wonderful things as man,

True but it is the rest of the idea that comes with it. Women have been led to believe that they need the wonderful things that men have because what women have or have been given in life is not as wonderful as what men have. They are and have been throughout the feminist movement led to believe that what they have is horrible, drudgery, mindless, unnecessary …work. And so, as women are seeking out to capture the wonderful things men have, there is a trend to let men do all the horrible, drudgery that women have done for centuries. Kind of a payback ideology, which is not Christian.

Would we feel the need to do that if we appreciated what God has given us.

 

[edwest211]

“… I am married but let’s not tell everyone.” Thank you.

 

[Irishmom2]

There are a lot of never-married women that use “Ms.” because it’s nobody’s business whether they are married or not. “Mr.” does not enable anyone to know a man’s marital status. I think the whole point is why is it that way for men and not for women?

 

[Lea101]

I guess I don’t understand this. My name is Never pronounced correctly but I wouldn’t tell someone to call me Ms because of it.

So that’s just your preference. Both my mom and you should not be judged for how you would like to be addressed. My mom, despite being a working mother, was traditional (from memory). It was pretty annoying to hear everyone mess up her maiden name and my dad’s last name, so it was easier to say ‘just call me Ms Mary’ or something like that.

Some married women here choose to use Mdm (maiden name) too. Since Muslims ironically don’t take on their husband’s last name, they tend to use this too. You can’t judge some sort of ill intention from this, it’s usually harmless.

It would be just as bothersome if men were to come up with some new title that said I am independent of my wife, call me…

There’s no new term. It’s Mr! There’s no indication that the person is married or not. Because the term has no relationship to marital status, Mr is an independent term.

It is the feminist idea that Ms is a title used to demonstrate a woman’s independence from her husband

I see the not wanting to be identified with your husband as a disunity. Kind of a, I am married but let’s not tell everyone.

I promise you, a lot of these women aren’t keeping secret husbands. It’s just principle. Their marital status has no effect on how they should be addressed in the public sphere, so they don’t want these terms. Same with women who keep their last names at work, but take on their husband’s last names on documents because they’re prominent in their field/maiden names are published.

We’re talking about a name! There’s nothing wrong with someone wanting ‘independence’ from their spouse when it comes to the way they’re addressed. Especially in the context where they are pointing out that men were always treated as independent from their wives.

Why aren’t you advocating for similar specific terms for men? This would be consistent with your beliefs. By your logic, as Mr is used for both single and married men (like Ms), men who insist on this want disunity from their wives!

 

[Lea101]

So I believe you’re advocating for a term married men should use instead of Mr, since Mr doesn’t tell me anything about your marital status!

Those horrid men…hiding their wives…

 

[jlc2k2]

And if you are talking to someone (like your child’s teacher) and are not aware of their marital status, it’s a lot more polite to say Ms. Smith than to ask the completely irrelevant question of “are you married”.

 

[Lea101]

Yup. Ms is a practical addition, it isn’t some sort of evil feminist plan to ruin families.

 

[edwest211]

Radical feminists tried to replace mom and dad with their propaganda. Mr. and Mrs. are no one’s business, but Ms. should be on a pedestal?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Why aren’t you advocating for similar specific terms for men?

Because I am content with Mr. and Mrs. Those two titles have always represented husband and wife. Men didn’t choose Mr to show independence as feminists chose Ms. Mostly, though, I don’t fight for it because I don’t look over to men and desire what men have. I don’t covet what they have or covet their role. I know they work very hard and most work very hard for their family, as do women.

I would also say that if feminists felt that it was wrong for a man to have just the title Mr. and felt it was unfair to women, why did feminists not ask for a new title for men? It would be better to correct something you feel is wrong rather than do the same thing.

Lastly, I also realize that life is not always fair, equal or evenly divided. I am glad for the blessings I have. God is good.

 

[Lea101]

It’s just a choice thing. Nobody these days really think much of Mrs Smith, Miss Johnson, or Ms Charles. It is not about putting a certain title on a pedestal, it’s just giving them a choice on how they want to be addressed.

 

[jlc2k2]

How do you address a man you have never met before? Mister? How do you address a woman you have never met before? Do you just assume every woman over a certain age has to be married?

 

[edwest211]

“Nobody?” I know that’s not accurate. And nobody prefers Ms.

 

[edwest211]

I say Mister or Sir. To a young lady, Miss.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

How do you address a man you have never met before? Mister? How do you address a woman you have never met before? Do you just assume every woman over a certain age has to be married?

Today in our culture, at least in the midwest of the United States, that is rarely a problem. Most adults introduce each other by their first name and rarely use Mr., Mrs. or Ms. otherwise I say Mr…
Women most always introduce themselves by their first names.

My husband usually refers to his boss as Sir., such as yes sir, what can I do for you?

 

[edwest211]

The lack of respect shown by some indicates a type of social conditioning.

 

[angel12]

I remember very well when Ms was encouraged. It was a throw off anything that has anything to do with your marriage and find your independence.

I remember, too. And it was about why should there be separate titles for married and unmarried women, when there aren’t for men? There’s no good reason.

 

[Bradskii]

jlc2k2:

How do you address a man you have never met before? Mister? How do you address a woman you have never met before? Do you just assume every woman over a certain age has to be married?

My husband usually refers to his boss as Sir., such as yes sir, what can I do for you?

Good grief. The last time I heard that was over 50 years ago.