Should women be treated as equals

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The key words in that quote are “that should remain their choice.”
 
FredBloggs said:
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babochka:
If fewer women choose to pursue the study of medicine because they decide against the long hours that could interfere and raising their families, that should remain there choice.
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Why is that different for women than for men? Or are you making the assumption that women should stay home and raise families while men go out to work?

I think you’re already, in your mind at least, depriving women of equal opportunities.
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I am saying that women are more likely to make a choice to sacrifice a high-powered career in favor of caring for their families. I applaud men who make that same choice. I know a number of men who have stepped back from corporate law because of the all-consuming intensity of that path. They have realized that such an intense career is not compatible with their desire to spend time with their families. So courageously, they have walked away and forged a less lucrative path that allows them to be active fathers . Women, at least my own experience, are more likely to come to this conclusion earlier in life.

Edit: Personally, I am an advocate for more balanced careers for men and women. We don’t have to do medicine the way we do and the hours that doctors put in, both in med school and after, are often incompatible with good patient care. So I think we need to reform the whole system. Then you might find more women opting to study medicine and enter more intense specialties.
 
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I worked with a young lady who had a father who waited until the kids were grown, went back to school, and got the degree he wanted. Then, a job he wanted. Women can do the same.
 
edwest211 said:
I worked with a young lady who had a father who waited until the kids were grown, went back to school, and got the degree he wanted. Then, a job he wanted. Women can do the same.
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I don’t disagree, but there is something to be said for the energy and enthusiasm of the young. And for the wisdom and experience of those who are a bit older.
 
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Lea101 said:
To be honest…while I believe men and women need each other equally, I always found that phrase wasn’t as triggering as it should be.

I always thought it just meant that women don’t need a boyfriend or a husband. Which technically, is true. Same goes for men and a girlfriend/wife.

Then I started seeing people refuting this with stuff like ‘men built that apartment complex you’re living in’
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Honestly some of this saddens me. So many of the men I have seen railing against the idea of women not needing men seem to be doing it because they believe, for one reason or another, that they could never attract one. They can’t imagine a relationship based on mutual love and support where either party could have a good life without the other, but finds it better with their spouse.

I suspect the same goes for women as well - some have a hard time imagining the possibility of a relationship with a man that isn’t based on control and domination.
 
There is something to be said for planning and the man and woman charting a course together. Not as adversaries but as partners. I know about the energy and enthusiasm of the young but it can’t replace knowledge and experience. Normally, this is provided by parents who were young and later, gained the necessary experience to pass on. Sadly, a highly distorted view of parents has been, and still is, being promoted. Somehow, each family is described as an isolated unit that can’t be influenced by parents. That is wrong thinking. The people who loved and raised the man and woman are to be kept at arm’s length? That is wrong.
 
It is easy to spot women who believe this. They are free to do so but rob themselves. Building trust takes time. Building a relationship takes time. If the man and woman can’t do this then they will not stay together. They will injure themselves before the fact.
 
edwest211 said:
It is easy to spot women who believe this. They are free to do so but rob themselves. Building trust takes time. Building a relationship takes time. If the man and woman can’t do this then they will not stay together. They will injure themselves before the fact.
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I tend to see it as sad more than anything.

Often these are people (both men and women) who come from deeply unhappy families, or from broken families. If a child grows up seeing a deeply unhappy marriage, they are far more likely to get bad ideas about the opposite sex. A woman who sees her father mistreat and dominate her mother is far more likely to think that marriage is just a way to dominate women. A man who sees his mother harass and berate his father is far more likely to conclude that women seek to take advantage of men. Same for children of broken homes, especially if poor partners are brought in frequently.

The original “fish needs a bicycle” quote was fairly early feminism. It is certainly true that many people in history have been trapped in marriage with an unreasonable partner who makes their life miserable, or even one who physically hurt them. And that in a world where men made most of the choices women were more vulnerable and had fewer escapes. It can sometimes be hard to create a world where we can reasonably protect ourselves without being unduly suspicious.
 
The difference between equal opportunities and outcome is that for opportunities, women and men can choose to pursue whatever they want. Outcomes would be expecting and enforcing a 50-50 ratio that may not happen naturally.

Fields like childcare, for example, are mostly women because men have other interests. And more women tend to want to get into this field. Now, you can say this is social engineering, or this is an innate difference. But it doesn’t matter when we are talking about outcomes.

This is because people who push for equal outcomes want a fixed ratio to even out things, instead of softer approaches like promoting good men who are in childcare. The former approach would contradict equal opportunities because interested women would be turned away because the school would have to seek out male teachers, even if they’re less qualified, to fit this ratio.

Now think of the same thing with women and male dominated industries
 
Well, there’s a difference in telling adults that they can’t have it all at once VS telling women that they must put their ambitions on hold or else they’re not a good mother OR telling men that they must be the breadwinner when they have kids.

Different families would have different needs, and it’s up to the couple to decide the best course of action instead of relying on a template, tbh.
 
VanitasVanitatum said:
The key words in that quote are “that should remain their choice.”
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And my point was that this choice isn’t just a woman’s choice. Men can stay home and raise families too.

Which Babobchka has now clarified, so I think we’re all in agreement! Phew!

It’s sad that such a question as “should women be treated as equals” is even asked in this century. (Not a criticism of @bradski, he was only channelling Edgar, who I note is now suspended)
 
The adversarial approach only produces adversaries. Not good or healthy.
 
FredBloggs said:
are you making the assumption that women should stay home and raise families while men go out to work?
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What is wrong with a woman staying home and raising a family? Scriptures say children are a blessing.

What is the reason for pushing women out the door of her home? Unless there is a financial need to help support the family, why does a woman have to go out and find those equal opportunities?

Who is caring for the children? The husband? Do children no longer need their mothers?
 
MagdalenaRita said:
What is the reason for pushing women out the door of her home? Unless there is a financial need to help support the family,
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So women should only work if there is a financial necessity to do so? The fact that the woman might want to work has no bearing at all?

The point of equality is that the women should be free to work whenever she wants to, not just when under abnormal circumstances such as financial troubles.
 
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Nothing. If that’s what she wants, a woman is free to stay at home and raise her family. Or she can work. Or join a monastery. if that’s what she wants.
 
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