Should "youth Masses" be different?

[agapewolf]

I wanted to ditto this. In my involvement with a college ministry I have seen this over and over again with kids coming form “life teen” parish backgrounds that lose interest and go protestant at an alarming rate when faced with a student run liturgy that actually follows the GIRM and uses often lively but always meaningful music. The custom masses are not doing them any favors.

And my experience is the exact opposite.Lots of vocations, teens being leaders at their Catholic colleges (benedictine, steubenville, etc). being focus leaders, becomingDRE’s, youth ministers.
3 of the 4 of our priests ordained last year came from Lifeteen programs. It did them favors

 

[Lovemyfaith]

They already use two trumpets. I know people will throw hissy fits on that instrument in a Mass.

What’s wrong with trumpets? Trumpets are mentioned specifically in the Bible a number of times. (okay my daughter does play the trumpet so maybe that is where my love of trumpet comes from )
I stated 7 pages ago that I don’t like clapping, that is the clapping that is instructed by my pastor to congratulate or wish happy birthday to people, though I am not sure if there is anything wrong with that. I also don’t know that there is anything wrong with the music at teen Masses, drums, trumpets, electric guitars and all. So long as the kids are playing to praise God and make a joyful noise, and not because they fancy themselves modern day Pink Floyd in concert at the local stadium. I think a good pastor/p.v. knows how to make that work.

 

[Michael96]

This thread has convinced me that what people feel is appropriate music is very much a matter of personal opinion and preference.

 

[Joysong]

Although I posted this previously, it is good to consider again in light of the season we celebrate. This thread may be venturing into areas that belong to the hierarchy to resolve and which is not the responsibility of the man in the pew to correct, assuming there is ‘something’ to correct, and that has not been proven beyond varying personal opinions being expressed.

In reflecting on the Christmas readings, I am always edified by God’s election of the first community gathered to worship His Divine Son. To whom were the angels sent singing Glory to God in the Highest? Lowly, despised, stinking shepherds, the commonest of the common people — NOT the rabbis in the Temple who were attuned to liturgy.

It pleased God to have ordinary folk receive the most awesome message of the Incarnation. I believe it STILL pleases God that common people bring their hearts full of joy to worship Him in settings that the spiritually elite might consider too lowly, too imperfect, too common, too ‘sacriligeous.’ Were God to wait until all things were utterly perfect, He may have to wait a loooooong time. While God could have delayed the holy birth until the ‘setting’ was more magnificent, He teaches us a silent message about the lowly stable where animals sheltered.

No, He loves us and is pleased with our songs of joy and heartfelt worship whenever we gather to celebrate liturgy, and He longs to give Himself to us in Communion.

Until liturgy changes are mandated from the hierarchy and brought down to us through the clergy, the congregation is not accountable for anything other than their own efforts to praise and worship God.

I always marvel that some try to teach us what our heart should find joy in, as if we did not really know how to love God.

Multiple quotes from highly theological documents can potentially be a serious temptation to fault-finding with the clergy and ministers who officiate at our liturgies, and spaun grumbling and contention … the heart of which is never pleasing to God.

If these serve to elevate one’s pride in believing one now has superior knowledge greater than the priest, or if they cause one to scorn their neighbor in the pew who is not worshipping adequately according to what they now ‘know’ is right, then factions arise and one’s spirit becomes puffed up, as St. Paul warned.

It is well and good to discuss, but in doing so, let’s remember that we live in battered tents, which are nonetheless the very temple of the Most High, who knows our thoughts. May we simply concentrate on filling our own individual role in the paschal mystery with a pure heart and intention.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

And my experience is the exact opposite.Lots of vocations, teens being leaders at their Catholic colleges (benedictine, steubenville, etc). being focus leaders, becomingDRE’s, youth ministers.
3 of the 4 of our priests ordained last year came from Lifeteen programs. It did them favors

The distinction I saw in who stayed Catholic and who left were whether their originating teen programs ran youth-oriented but properly said masses or had the normal gamut of the abuses long encouraged by Life Teen. It was the youth that hadn’t been to a mass that resembled the GIRM in nearly a decade that too frequently left, those that came from programs that respected the liturgy had a much smoother transition.

 

[AlexV]

In some instances, the laity…who OWN the liturgy as THEIR work ALONG WITH their clergy…are indeed more knowledgeable.

I knew a priest once who asserted that “Vatican II outlawed Latin.”

Did he somehow have a secret knowledge (gnosticism?) about Vatican II?

I think not. He was objectively in error.

Another priest asserted that the Gloria was supposed to be omitted unless it were sung. Again, he was in error.

“Joysong”'s thesis is we should all be stupid drones who do what we’re told by clergy. It’s stunning clericalism, actually.

Then, of course, this is exactly how liturgical abuse thrives: a climate of “Father is always right, His Excellency is always right, who am I to complain or criticize?”

Bugnini himself notes that the culture of doing whatever you’re told by clergy helped make his revolutionary changes more readily accepted.

Chilling, if you ask me.

 

[Joysong]

2 Sam. 6:16 And when the ark of the Lord was come into the city of David, Michol the daughter of Saul, looking out through a window, saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord: and she despised him in her heart.

21 But David replied to Michol: “I was dancing before the LORD. As the LORD lives, who preferred me to your father and his whole family when he appointed me commander of the LORD’S people, Israel, not only will I make merry before the LORD, but I will demean myself even more. I will be lowly in your esteem, but in the esteem of the slave girls you spoke of I will be honored.”

And so Saul’s daughter Michol was childless to the day of her death.

 

[benedictgal]

In some instances, the laity…who OWN the liturgy as THEIR work ALONG WITH their clergy…are indeed more knowledgeable.

I knew a priest once who asserted that “Vatican II outlawed Latin.”

Did he somehow have a secret knowledge (gnosticism?) about Vatican II?

I think not. He was objectively in error.

Another priest asserted that the Gloria was supposed to be omitted unless it were sung. Again, he was in error.

“Joysong”'s thesis is we should all be stupid drones who do what we’re told by clergy. It’s stunning clericalism, actually.

Then, of course, this is exactly how liturgical abuse thrives: a climate of “Father is always right, His Excellency is always right, who am I to complain or criticize?”

Bugnini himself notes that the culture of doing whatever you’re told by clergy helped make his revolutionary changes more readily accepted.

Chilling, if you ask me.

That is indeed most chilling. That is also why Redemptionis Sacramentum came into being. What many people forget (or, would like to forget) is that the Catholic faithful have the right to a Mass that is celebrated under the correct form, which includes adherence to the rubrics and the norms. This right certainly includes the Youth.

When we make innovations to the Mass, based on personal likes, dislikes and idiosyncracies, as Cardinal Arinze repeatedly mentions, then, we run the danger of injecting things into the Mass that are not appropriate nor allowed. This will certainly lead the youth astray, the same people that we are supposed to engender in the Faith.

Lex orandi, lex creendi (I misspelled this). We pray as we believe. As Catholics, we are all bound to what the Church teaches and to how she has mandated that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass be celebrated. Introducing innovations and novelties that go against that leads people astray.

 

[AlexV]

“Joysong’s” selective quoting of Old Testament passages to defend liturgical aberration is most entertaining. Now those who oppose something that doesn’t exist in the Roman Rite (i.e., dance) are threatened with barrenness.

 

[benedictgal]

“Joysong’s” selective quoting of Old Testament passages to defend liturgical aberration is most entertaining. Now those who oppose something that doesn’t exist in the Roman Rite (i.e., dance) are threatened with barrenness.

I took a diocesan course on the Old Testament during the Fall (2007). This was taught by a priest who is very orthodox and is extremely faithful to the correct celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

If you look at God’s initial request to Pharoah, the Lord, through Moses and Aaron, asked the Egyptian ruler to let the Hebrews go for three days so that they could worship the Lord. Worshipping God was the most important thing; it overrode the people’s unhappiness as slaves.

Then, during Israel’s sojourn into Egypt, God spent significant amounts of time detailing to Moses just how the Chosen People were to worship Him, right down to the rubrics, the vestments and the rituals. Failure to adhere to this meant punishment, as was later manifested to the Hebrews when they strayed from proper worship of God and drifted into Baalism and other deviances. It was only when Isreal returned to proper worship of the Lord, that things went right.

In other words, contrary to the argument you quoted in your post Alex V (and in agreement with your sound observations), adherence to proper worship is extremely important to God. He was very clear about that with Ancient Israel. We are the New Israel and we are bound to adhere to the rubrics and norms that the Church, in the name of Christ, her Divine Spouse, sets forth for us. This also includes transmitting this down to our youth.

Young people need to be taught early on the importance of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It’s not some do-it-yourslf thing or a feel good experience. It is the Church’s highest form of worship and its integrity must be preserved. The Mass is a gift from God. We receive and pass down what was handed to us.

 

[Joysong]

It is rather tempting to take the bait set forth, but I was called to speak it, not to bear responsibility for how the reader interprets it.

What is being overlooked entirely, is the attitude held by Michol, who ‘despised David in her heart.’

A closer look at the message, and let me repeat it for the dull of hearing, will demonstrate that I was referring NOT to licitness and/or perfection in liturgy, but the attitude of the heart in face of possible illicitness and/or* imperfection* until such time as it is corrected by lawful authority.

 

[AlexV]

We can indeed despise error and illicit activity. David’s activity wasn’t illicit. Liturgical abuse is.

 

[Joysong]

You still miss it AlexV …?

It is right and good to despise an ‘apparent’ illicit action in one’s heart,

but NOT the person(s). Big difference!

Nice spin.

 

[benedictgal]

We can indeed despise error and illicit activity. David’s activity wasn’t illicit. Liturgical abuse is.

David’s dancing was also not within the confines of the worship of Ancient Israel. Actually, it was a prototype of what John the Baptist was going to do at the moment of the Visitation. Mary, as the true Ark of the Covenant, visited her cousin Elizabeth. Elizabeth asks Mary, “Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?” David asks, “Who am I that the Ark of the Covenant should come to me?”

As Mary greets Elizabeth, St. John the Baptist leaps for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. David leaps and dances for joy as the Ark is brought to him. Although he is wearing the apron of the priesthood of Aaron, what he is doing is not a liturgical act because it is not within the confines of the liturgical norms and rubrics set forth by God to Moses.

Therefore the argument that you quoted Alex V (and again, you make a sound rebuttal) does not justify what goes on in Catholic churches today. Incidentally, Francis Cardinal Arinze, the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, repeatedly says that “liturgical dance” is forbidden. He further added that if some group were to send Rome a proposal, his Congregation would answer in the negative.

 

[Joysong]

Duh,

The issue is not liturgical dance, nor that of citing David’s example to support it.

AGAIN,

The issue is David’s intent and purity of heart in worshipping God, whether IN or OUT of a liturgical celebration. His wife saw fit to despise HIM for his manner of expression which was not in accord with what she felt was more suitable.

Michol was out of line, for whether or not David was correct, God nevertheless saw his heart and was pleased. THAT my friends is the message.

 

[AlexV]

Of course nobody ever spoke of despising a person, so the example/point is off-topic and irrelevant.

 

[anamchara]

So then you also have youth Masses with e.g. Gregorian chant and polyphony? If not, if your youth Masses only (or primarily) have CP&W music, then how is that not forcing music you (or somebody in charge) thinks is the “correct” music for a youth Mass upon the young people?

No one is forcing anything. You make it sound like it’s nothing but adults in a room deciding what youth like or don’t like. Have you ever thought that maybe…just maybe the youth have had a say in this? Perhaps JPII had a clue about the youth and what they wanted when he started World Youth Day. How many huge youth groups are there at parishes today? I’m sure they have their say about many things in Mass. I’m just curious, do you have a teenager? I have three. That doesn’t make me an expert but I having three has put in a position to be around many others in youth groups and schools. Does your parish have a youth group?

As we discuss the topic further, we should remember that the Church does have prescribed norms and rubrics that must be followed for the Mass. This defintitely applies to these “youth Masses”.

According to Francis Cardinal Arinze:

Please do not try and interpret this cardinals words to fit your own agenda. I’m sure the good Cardinal Arinze would be very happy with most parishes and their youth Masses. I’m sure some abuses take place but not to the extent that you seem to constantly assume with everyones parish.

How many times have we seen that happen? People may have the best of intentions; however, when they deviate from the norms, big problems creep up.

 

[anamchara]

You still miss it AlexV …?

It is right and good to despise an ‘apparent’ illicit action in one’s heart,

but NOT the person(s). Big difference!

Nice spin.

That’s the problem right there. A few in here seem to be constantly claiming illicit actions,when it seems more about what they like and don’t like. Then they try and twist words from authority to fit their personal opinion.

 

[snhs]

No one is forcing anything. You make it sound like it’s nothing but adults in a room deciding what youth like or don’t like. Have you ever thought that maybe…just maybe the youth have had a say in this? Perhaps JPII had a clue about the youth and what they wanted when he started World Youth Day. How many huge youth groups are there at parishes today? I’m sure they have their say about many things in Mass. I’m just curious, do you have a teenager? I have three. That doesn’t make me an expert but I having three has put in a position to be around many others in youth groups and schools. Does your parish have a youth group?

Well I am a teenager and I’d far rather have Gregorian chant than whatever contemporary hymns the two or three people in the music group might decide upon.

If a Parish introduces a youth mass then it is a one size fits all, its a stereotype and the music and other practices reflect that. I don’t really think changing the liturgy to attract a certain group of people helps either whether its a matter of different music or more serious abuses. I think the key aim should be in teaching younger people about what the mass and faith is all about because a lot of them simply don’t know. Surely what they should be shown is the rich inheritance of the church in its practices, musical and otherwise, rather than providing the same thing they can get on MTV or at pop concerts. If what they hear at mass is the same thing they get everywhere else then there is nothing to distinguish it, nothing to emphasis the supremely important nature of what happens at the altar. Gregorian chant is just one example but it is unlike the norm, it wasn’t the kind of the thing the faithful would hear in settings apart from church which is surely the whole point.

At the end of the day no mass should not be reduced to a marketing ploy to fill pews and often youth masses are just that.

 

[japhy]

No one is forcing anything. You make it sound like it’s nothing but adults in a room deciding what youth like or don’t like. Have you ever thought that maybe…just maybe the youth have had a say in this?

If the youth don’t know about Gregorian Chant, and if it’s never introduced or suggested to them, how can they know to ask for it or choose it themselves?