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Joysong
Guest
You have raised a good point, Anamchara.
I did view the Lineamenta (which is an agenda for discussion only) and the subsequent Instrumentum Laboris, both of which have been quoted to support a belief that most youth liturgies are flawed. Incidentally, quotes using these high-sounding official titles, makes it appear as if these two documents carry the weight of an official papal encyclical, which they do not. Lineamenta is only an initial step in the bishops’ deliberations.
I am grateful to Japhy for her post helping us to see all of the actual background. What I found personally as I viewed these actual documents was only a very brief statement by the Bishops:
However brief the statement, what was the result of this Synod’s comment and deliberation? While there was expression of concern from a ‘few’ and rightfully so, I have seen no official document or encyclical incorporating this concern into a solid directive.
To take this a step further and imply therefore that “the Church has taught thus and so,” rather than, “the Church is cautiously aware and concerned,” is to distort the instrument to support one’s own opinion. From the CCC:
2497 By the very nature of their profession, journalists have an obligation to serve the truth and not offend against charity in disseminating information.
The underlying premise being expressed using these two instruments is that all youth masses are reprobate. There is no proof of this other than to say a ‘few’ bishops (in their respective dioceses) expressed concern. This was not at all stated as the view of the majority, or the word ‘few’ would not have been selected … indicating it is NOT widespread as some would have us believe.
If it were, since this dates back to 2005, we would have by now seen official word from the Holy See, such as Redemptoris Sacramentum, correcting this. It is nonexistent, other than a concern that is known to the Bishops to govern their respective dioceses.
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benedictgal
Guest
Amanchara,
With the way this thread is going, I’m not sure if you asked me or VociMike if we had children or if we had a parish youth group. Please know that I bring this issue up because I wasn’t sure to whom this matter was addressed, and, since I probably messed up the quote button (hope I didn’t bleed into your post), I’ll answer on my own circumstances.
No, I don’t have children. I just have dachshunds that I rescue. Yes, my parish has a youth group and the “contemporary Mass” is Sunday early afternoon. I also lived my Cursillo with the young women’s group (as it was in English). Furthermore, I came of age early on in the Youth movement, so, I’ve exprerienced it and quickly opted out in college because it was 180-degrees to what I learned in Catholic school (kinder through eighth).
The Cursillo retreat, even though it had many, many good things to it (I certainly profited from a lot of what I experienced), left me frustrated and disappointed where the Mass and Benediction were concerned. The music was dubious in theology, doctrine and dogma. It was centered mostly only the community and about feeling good. Benediction turned into a loud, hand-clapping experience, with the Monstrance exposed, that it took away all of the solmenity and sobriety that this particular liturgy requires. I lived my Cursillo during the Feast of Pentecost. Not a word in the liturgy (including the music) reflected this great feast of the Church. In fact, it wasn’t until open-mike that I mentioned it to the young women. They weren’t aware of this great feast, and, quite a few of them were members of their parish’s youth groups.
That weekend taught me that perhaps, something is seriously missing from our youth program. Young people are hungry for the Truth about their Faith. They need solid, grounded teaching in the Tradition of our Catholic Church. One of the young girls said that Mary was “divine”. After she finished, I got up and gently explained that this was not true. Something needs to be done.
Now, contrary to what you and others may perhaps think, I am not against World Youth Day nor LifeTeen, per se. What I am against is what happens at the LifeTeen and Youth Masses. You need to separate the two. It’s like the NeoCatechumenal movement. Pope Benedict XVI is not against the movement, itself. He is, however, very much against the abuses that this movement has brought into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and has told them to stop.
With the way this thread is going, I’m not sure if you asked me or VociMike if we had children or if we had a parish youth group. Please know that I bring this issue up because I wasn’t sure to whom this matter was addressed, and, since I probably messed up the quote button (hope I didn’t bleed into your post), I’ll answer on my own circumstances.
No, I don’t have children. I just have dachshunds that I rescue. Yes, my parish has a youth group and the “contemporary Mass” is Sunday early afternoon. I also lived my Cursillo with the young women’s group (as it was in English). Furthermore, I came of age early on in the Youth movement, so, I’ve exprerienced it and quickly opted out in college because it was 180-degrees to what I learned in Catholic school (kinder through eighth).
The Cursillo retreat, even though it had many, many good things to it (I certainly profited from a lot of what I experienced), left me frustrated and disappointed where the Mass and Benediction were concerned. The music was dubious in theology, doctrine and dogma. It was centered mostly only the community and about feeling good. Benediction turned into a loud, hand-clapping experience, with the Monstrance exposed, that it took away all of the solmenity and sobriety that this particular liturgy requires. I lived my Cursillo during the Feast of Pentecost. Not a word in the liturgy (including the music) reflected this great feast of the Church. In fact, it wasn’t until open-mike that I mentioned it to the young women. They weren’t aware of this great feast, and, quite a few of them were members of their parish’s youth groups.
That weekend taught me that perhaps, something is seriously missing from our youth program. Young people are hungry for the Truth about their Faith. They need solid, grounded teaching in the Tradition of our Catholic Church. One of the young girls said that Mary was “divine”. After she finished, I got up and gently explained that this was not true. Something needs to be done.
Now, contrary to what you and others may perhaps think, I am not against World Youth Day nor LifeTeen, per se. What I am against is what happens at the LifeTeen and Youth Masses. You need to separate the two. It’s like the NeoCatechumenal movement. Pope Benedict XVI is not against the movement, itself. He is, however, very much against the abuses that this movement has brought into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and has told them to stop.
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VociMike
Guest
I have been asked if I have a teenager. I have two, one boy and one girl, ages 13 and 15. And they both consider the standard youth ministry fare to be a bad joke, and they’re not shy about telling me or their mom what they think.
Of course now it will be assumed by some that we’ve poisoned their little minds…
Of course now it will be assumed by some that we’ve poisoned their little minds…
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pnewton
Guest
It does help to know where we are coming from. I have a 21, 18 and 3 year old.
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buffalo
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The Teaching Role of Sacred Liturgy VANCOUVER SYNOD STUDY COMMISSION ON TEACHING THE FAITH
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RomanCrusader
Guest
Having youth masses really only leads to more modernism.
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agapewolf
Guest
I have never seen anyone suggest such a thing. Your comment does not help.Of course now it will be assumed by some that we’ve poisoned their little minds…
In fact, I’ve just experienced it from the other side. I was a youth minister for 5 years, and still another 5 years later, have a lot of involvement with teenagers. My experience is that they love LT, youth masses, etc. I see such amazing conversions…yet I am questioned here all the time about the nature of those conversions, if it really happened from what I say it did, etc.
I don’t know why it can’t just stand that there are REAL TRUE experiences here that might actually happen not the way you (you being a generic you, not you specifcially) think it should happen.
One other point, the teens here, as well as offspring of the posters here are in a different category of folks altogether thanthe standard fare Catholic. You must all realize this. The folks here consider their faith very important, and follow it, as well as raise their families that way. It is what we should all be striving for, but unfortunately, the general populace doesn’t.
My point is, that there are plenty of teens that don’t need a youth mass. THey have been properly catechized, etc. Most of the teens though, don’t have this supportive household at home. Something approachable…the source and summit of our faith, might be their avenue to hope.
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jmcrae
Guest
Perhaps they should let their Youth coordinator know what sort of things they would prefer. In my Senior group, half the kids think they are atheists - should I kick them out, or make a bridge that they can cross over to the Catholic faith? (Making the bridge might involve including activities in youth group that they think are fun to do - which might be seen as “lame” by perfect children such as yours.I have been asked if I have a teenager. I have two, one boy and one girl, ages 13 and 15. And they both consider the standard youth ministry fare to be a bad joke, and they’re not shy about telling me or their mom what they think.
Of course now it will be assumed by some that we’ve poisoned their little minds…
)
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anamchara
Guest
Japhy, I have no problem with this idea. I think it would be great to do this. I would say as the last poster did, go to the youth coordinator and ask that this be done.
Well, thank you for answering my question. I’m sure that you have been a huge influence in thier lives on matters of faith, but that is a good thing. I don’t believe you have poisoned any minds. We all come with different backgrounds. It’s important for youth to have a voice in the parish. If they think it’s a joke they should speak up in thier youth group, if you have one. Find out what they are interested in, maybe the TLM? Then ask the priest about it. Or the Youth coordinator.I have been asked if I have a teenager. I have two, one boy and one girl, ages 13 and 15. And they both consider the standard youth ministry fare to be a bad joke, and they’re not shy about telling me or their mom what they think.
Of course now it will be assumed by some that we’ve poisoned their little minds…
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japhy
Guest
I use the terms and titles given to the documents by the bishops themselves. Yes, lineamenta means “outlines”, and instrumentum laboris means “instrument of work”. I make no attempt to aggrandize a document’s value by using a title in Latin; I simply am following the practice of the Church. (I mean, “encyclical” comes from the Latin encyclia from the Greek ἐν κύκλῳ which means “general” or “encircling”, but we don’t mind using the English word which is just an anglicization of the Latin!)
First, we are not saying that “all youth masses are reprobate”, but we are acknowledging – as certain bishops did – that some “youth Masses” are considered a “shadow] which come
So we are not saying that “all youth masses are reprobate”, but we are pointing out that some bishops have found the music used in youth Masses they have knowledge of to be inappropriate (“profane”, “not conducive to prayer”, “showing little concern for the quality of the music and text”) and overlooks “the artistic patrimony which has been theology and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy”. Perhaps some of us have first-hand knowledge of this. In addition, things can happen in a diocese without a bishop’s knowledge; there might be more instances of such inappropriate music than is evidenced by the responses.
(continued…)
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japhy
Guest
As for documentation of a higher caliber, the Synod produced a list of Propositiones (i.e. propositions). Proposition 29 (“Eucharist and Means of Social Communication”) made the following suggestion to the Pope: “The liturgy must be devout and invite to prayer because it celebrates the paschal mystery. The liturgical norms of the Church must always be observed, value must be given to the sacred signs, attention must be given to the artistic expression of the place, objects and liturgical vestments. It is necessary to ensure that the singing and music correspond to the mystery celebrated and to the liturgical time.” That might not sound like much to you. But the result of the Synod was the Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum Caritatis!I am grateful to Japhy for her [his
Respect for the liturgical books and the richness of signs
40. Emphasizing the importance of the ars celebrandi also leads to an appreciation of the value of the liturgical norms. The ars celebrandi should foster a sense of the sacred … Perhaps we take it for granted that our ecclesial communities already know and appreciate these resources, but this is not always the case. … Equally important for a correct ars celebrandi is an attentiveness to the various kinds of language that the liturgy employs: words and music, gestures and silence, movement, the liturgical colours of the vestments. … The simplicity of its gestures and the sobriety of its orderly sequence of signs communicate and inspire more than any contrived and inappropriate additions. Attentiveness and fidelity to the specific structure of the rite express both a recognition of the nature of Eucharist as a gift and, on the part of the minister, a docile openness to receiving this ineffable gift.
Liturgical song
42. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love”. The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration. Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons. {Cf. Propositio 29} Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy.
And before anyone jumps up and says “… the chant proper to the Roman liturgy”, let me remind you that the official Latin version of Sacramentum Caritatis uses the phrase “Cantus liturgicus” for the heading of paragraph 42 (translated as “Liturgical song”) and uses the phrase “cantui liturgiae Romanae proprio” at the end of that paragraph (translated as “the chant proper to the Roman liurgy”. The same word (cantus/cantui) means both “chant” and “song”. Given the similarity of expression, the dual meaning, and the support of translations of the exhortation into other languages, the Pope is saying that Gregorian chant is the proper liturgical song when it comes to the Roman Rite.
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Joysong
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When I read this quote (below) of our beloved John Paul II and posted it earlier, I have done some meditating on his words and considered just what it was that drew the young to him at WYD, old and infirm that he was — and what it was that drew children to Jesus, Himself.
The disciples were annoyed that children were gathering to Jesus, but we see His welcoming embrace. An outgoing love and acceptance is essential for any of our youth, and I believe nailing them down to thou shalt not’s will drive them from us in a heartbeat. If they know they are loved and esteemed, they will respond, and one can guide them into safe harbors with not too much effort. “Draw me, we will RUN to the odor of your ointments.” (Song of Songs 1:4)
Devotional photos of Jesus smiling. (scroll down)
In my younger days, I accepted a position teaching CCD to 7th graders and I was extremely nervous, knowing the boisterous energy level of that age group, but I understood in prayer that they would behave the way “I” believed they would behave. So I simply loved them, and expected that they would respond appropriately. They did this so well that I had to approach my pastor and ask for a second evening per week, because they were hungry for more. There were no gimics, no music, no entertainment, no candy and ice cream. These were not needed, neither from myself, nor from John Paul II. The Spirit touches and calls them according to our love for them.
If anyone believes that total restriction to their spontaneity is productive of genuine holiness, well all I can say is too bad.
I believe this thread has run its course and nothing new is being added, so on this note I believe my time here is done, lest someone get the notion I am against liturgical rubrics and in favor of a free-for-all.
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tcraig
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Yes, I wonder about this, too. I’ve never seen a “teen mass” that offered anything other than contemporary pop/rock style praise and worship music. Complete with guitars (a few electric) and once a complete. drum. set.
(I respectfully submit that bass drum and cymbals are *not appropriate *instruments at mass.)
I simply don’t understand this very specialized approach to the liturgy aimed specifically at teens. They’re certainly not the only apathetic group of churchgoers out there.
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anamchara
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I had to bring this post forward. Perfectly put JM!Perhaps they should let their Youth coordinator know what sort of things they would prefer. **In my Senior group, half the kids think they are atheists - should I kick them out, or make a bridge that they can cross over to the Catholic faith? **(Making the bridge might involve including activities in youth group that they think are fun to do - which might be seen as “lame” by perfect children such as yours.
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jmcrae
Guest
You have obviously never been to a Filipino Mass.Yes, I wonder about this, too. I’ve never seen a “teen mass” that offered anything other than contemporary pop/rock style praise and worship music. Complete with guitars (a few electric) and once a complete. drum. set.
(I respectfully submit that bass drum and cymbals are *not appropriate *instruments at mass.)
I simply don’t understand this very specialized approach to the liturgy aimed specifically at teens. They’re certainly not the only apathetic group of churchgoers out there.
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Joysong
Guest
Hi Japhy (him) … 
You are the last person in the world that I was referring to in my earlier post, and your humility touches me that you thought it was. No way! In fact I am so indebted to you for KINDLY taking time to share with all of us what those documents meant.
There is a welcome manner of sharing/teaching that is readily accepted by people and another manner that we won’t talk about here.
Thanks again, and God bless!
Carole
I bowed out of the thread after my post, not having read yours due to typing my own, and I then had an interruption with a phone call.
You are the last person in the world that I was referring to in my earlier post, and your humility touches me that you thought it was. No way! In fact I am so indebted to you for KINDLY taking time to share with all of us what those documents meant.
There is a welcome manner of sharing/teaching that is readily accepted by people and another manner that we won’t talk about here.
Thanks again, and God bless!
Carole
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Margarite
Guest
I am 18 and I hate going to a “Youth Mass” 
It is fake. It is not Catholic, it is horrible. How can you pray when someone is screaming in your ear?
I don’t know how the priest can stand it, because I certainly can’t. I go to mass hoping to be renewed and strengthened, but all the Youth mass does is make me and and just want to scream !I don’t know but it seems to me that the youth is not dumb. The youth mass acts like we are and like we can’t understand anything that is not screamed at us with a beat.
I don’t go to my youth group because they don’t do anything except gossip. I didn’t go to the local “Catholic” highschool because it is a place of sin. [edited by Moderator] High School is known for kids with drug addictions and sex addictions. It is not Catholic except in name. So I went to a public charter school, saved my parents $10,000/year and got a better education.
I am a conservative teen, but I don’t like those teen masses, they drive me out of my mind and I hope I never have to attend one again.
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Michael_Welter
Guest
We don’t make it a habit to force the youth to attend any one particular Mass.
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benedictgal
Guest
However, if you bill something as a “Youth Mass” and only use Contemporary Protestant praise and worship music, you’re pretty much limiting the kids to that one option.
Now, I have leafed through the OCP Spirit and Song hymnal, which, in my opinion, is pretty abysmal in that most of the hymns are drawn from contemporary Prostestant praise and worship music, which really has no place within the confines of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The music is also very “Me” oriented. “Lord, I Lift Your Name on High” centers more on what I am doing for the Lord rather than on Him.
What’s wrong with teaching young people real sacred music like the English versions of the Attende Domine or O Sun of Justice? These songs drive the point home regarding the real nature of Lent, which is fast approaching us. I lived my Cursillo retreat on Pentecost weekend. I was disheartened to know that not one young lady in the retreat (nor a majority of the older women) knew Come, Holy Ghost or that it was, in fact, Pentecost. And, many of the retreat leaders (who are also involved in their own parish youth groups) were fuzzy on the feast as well.
It’s actually interesting to note that most of the teenagers who have posted comments on this thread do not much care for the Youth Masses, in particular the music. They are hungry for Tradition, something that, evidently, is not found in the Youth Masses.
Oddly enough, the ones who are defending the Youth Masses are the older ones, who are the perpetrators of this kind of liturgy.
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