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Pookie_Dupre
Guest
I am serious as a heart attack! Someone would have to KILL me to stop me from kneeling during the consecration … … before my Lord and Savior!!
Respectfully, Pookie.
Respectfully, Pookie.
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mardukm
Guest
I believe we should always give heed to the traditions as they are handed down to us.
Here is an interesting article on the value of kneeling by an EO priest (he also references a work by another EO priest on the same subject).
dneoca.org/articles/responsekneel0795.html
I really like the article. I appreciate the distinction he makes between kneeling as a sign of penitence for sinfulness, on the one hand, and kneeling as a sign of humility before the Lord of the universe, on the other. With that distinction, the ancient canon against kneeling during Liturgy does not really seem to apply.
Here is an article by an Indian Orthodox on the Holy Qurbono as it relates to kneeling:
one-christ.blogspot.com/2008/04/kneeling-during-holy-qurbana.html
A saying common among Copts is that kneeling is the most powerful position on earth before the Lord.
Blessings
P.S. I also don’t think that Mother Angelica meant anything disrespectful by what she stated. Her statement could be taken to mean “I have heard that is what Easterns do; this is the way we Westerns do it.” I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt.
Here is an interesting article on the value of kneeling by an EO priest (he also references a work by another EO priest on the same subject).
dneoca.org/articles/responsekneel0795.html
I really like the article. I appreciate the distinction he makes between kneeling as a sign of penitence for sinfulness, on the one hand, and kneeling as a sign of humility before the Lord of the universe, on the other. With that distinction, the ancient canon against kneeling during Liturgy does not really seem to apply.
Here is an article by an Indian Orthodox on the Holy Qurbono as it relates to kneeling:
one-christ.blogspot.com/2008/04/kneeling-during-holy-qurbana.html
A saying common among Copts is that kneeling is the most powerful position on earth before the Lord.
Blessings
P.S. I also don’t think that Mother Angelica meant anything disrespectful by what she stated. Her statement could be taken to mean “I have heard that is what Easterns do; this is the way we Westerns do it.” I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt.
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otjm
Guest
And with all due respect; either you have not read the entire posts, or you have said that the rules that the Church makes don’t apply to you, and you will determine what is correct and what is not.
We are not discussing going to a Roman rite Mass where there are no kneelers and the parish stands during the Consecration. We are discussing one of the Eastern rites, and the Church has seen fit to enact rubrics which are differrent from the Roman rite.
If your comment is that in the Roman rite Mass you would kneel no matter what, that is perfectly correct. But if your comment is that you would kneel during the Consecration at a Byzantine rite Consecration, you are in essence saying that you feel that you have the right to defy the Church’s rules.
You might want to re-read the OP to see if you are answering the question posed, or simply jumping in without considering the nature of the thread.
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otjm
Guest
I would be curious to see the statistics, or at least the source, and what time period they represent. It is not so much questionsing you, as seeing what they say. The only source I have currently is from CARA, and I do not have information that they have ever done a study post-college that separates out, for example, Mass attendance (which is used to indicate adherence to Catholicism) post college sorted by Catholic College and non-Catholic college.
What Cara does show is that in the age group of 18 - 30, attendance is 21% attending weekly; 31 - 43 is 22% attending weekly (2004 poll). This does not sort out even those who attended any college from those who went no more than high school.
And a lot of water has gone udner the bridge since the 1970’s; the early 1970’s were the time of most experimentation liturgically. Things have gotten back to a much more even keel since then.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
I could tell you stories about the Campus Ministry of the Catholic university I attended in the late 1970’s that would, “Cause the hairs on your head to stand on end as a frightened porcupine.” and, That includes INVALID MASSES where the Body & Blood of Christ were NOT CONFECTED!
**There are only 4 things that make a mass invalid:
**There are only 4 things that make a mass invalid:
- Lack of proper minister (priest or bishop).
- Lack of proper intention (this is hard to prove).
- Lack of proper form (mangling the accepted Words of Consecration so they do NOT refer to the Body and Blood of Christ).
- Lack of proper matter (wheat bread and pure grape wine).
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otjm
Guest
Want to bet it was #4?
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malphono
Guest
Oh yeah … The old chips & coke fests. I remember them well.
Also possible that #3 was mixed-in there as well. Seen that too.
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otjm
Guest
As goofy as Oregon is, I have never seen either, but that does not convince me they never happened. It is sad that enthusiasm succeeded in overcoming common sense.Oh yeah … The old chips & coke fests. I remember them well.
Also possible that #3 was mixed-in there as well. Seen that too.
A good portion of what happened in that “free-fall off the end of the earth” interestingly was done by priests who were ordained pre-Vatican 2.
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Aramis
Guest
THen stay out of the Eastern Catholic parishes, where, generally, doing so is considered an act of sorrow, not of reverence.
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mlouise007
Guest
Here is an article and a response which seems to have been published in an OCA publication. I don’t see any dates for when that was. I think it’s very worth reading both articles together. Fr. Gisetti brings up some interesting food for thought in the section where he speaks of kneeling in the context of “The vast majority of Orthodox Christians attend church only on Sundays…” I think his point there connects with Father Koblosh’s observation that “At Sunday Liturgy, all preparation expressed by kneeling and prostrating comes to fulfillment, and so we stand. The ‘fast’ is fulfilled as it resolves itself into ‘feast.’ The Lord is coming! The Lord is yet to come! But there, where the Church assembles on the Day of the Lord, the Lord comes! And He is made known to her in the ‘breaking of the bread’.”
I find useful that image from Father Koblosh: "The ‘fast’ is fulfilled as it resolves itself into ‘feast.’ ", kneeling and fasting as both penitential in preparation for the Resurrection of the Lord every Sunday. I’m not persuaded by a number of Fr. Gisetti’s arguments but I think all his points are quite useful to consider.
I find useful that image from Father Koblosh: "The ‘fast’ is fulfilled as it resolves itself into ‘feast.’ ", kneeling and fasting as both penitential in preparation for the Resurrection of the Lord every Sunday. I’m not persuaded by a number of Fr. Gisetti’s arguments but I think all his points are quite useful to consider.
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mlouise007
Guest
I see mardukm in #41 referenced these articles already. Sorry I missed that… I’m not doing well at keeping up with the few threads I’m watching… (And there is a date referenced for the first article, April 1995, by Fr. Gisetti in his response.)
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mlouise007
Guest
Glory to Jesus Christ!
They also sat a lot, but in those instances His Eminence motioned people to sit, so I have no idea what their norm is for that.
Last Sunday I had the joy of being part of Mass at an Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church where about half the parish knelt and half stood. I understand that this is a parish that was created when 2 churches came together so I’m guessing who stands and who kneels may be partly a factor of which church/tradition they came from before combining.
This has been a very interesting thread for me and has in fact made me more uncomfortable kneeling on Sundays in my home Roman rite parish. I go to daily Mass so in a sense I get the week to prepare as Fr. Koblosh talked about it in his article: "At Sunday Liturgy, all preparation expressed by kneeling and prostrating comes to fulfillment, and so we stand. The ‘fast’ is fulfilled as it resolves itself into ‘feast.’ " Leaving the Greek church today I heard several people around me commenting to each other that they hadn’t “been to church” for weeks (“so hard to get going… tired from work… rather stay home” as they said to each other). Maybe their priest read Fr. Gisetti’s article and decided to go with kneeling…
So, today I was at the local Greek Orthodox Cathedral, or proto-cathedral, because His Eminence Metropolitan Gerasimos was visiting for a special memorial service following DL. I’ve gone to this church occasionally on various feasts and funerals over many decades but not sure I’ve ever been to a Sunday DL before. To my surprise all but about 4 people, maybe there were a few more behind me who I obviously couldn’t see, dropped down to the kneelers at the epiklesis. When in Rome… well, since there were in fact folks who didn’t kneel I remained with them standing, in a “deep bow” as I’m used to. Had everyone knelt I would have also.no kneeling? huh? I attended a few Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgys through out the years ( I have many Orthodox friends). We kneeled. The pews even had kneelers just like the Roman churches do.
Yes, OhMalley, they have oneThose modernist Greeks have pipe organs too!
They also sat a lot, but in those instances His Eminence motioned people to sit, so I have no idea what their norm is for that.
Last Sunday I had the joy of being part of Mass at an Assyrian Chaldean Catholic Church where about half the parish knelt and half stood. I understand that this is a parish that was created when 2 churches came together so I’m guessing who stands and who kneels may be partly a factor of which church/tradition they came from before combining.
This has been a very interesting thread for me and has in fact made me more uncomfortable kneeling on Sundays in my home Roman rite parish. I go to daily Mass so in a sense I get the week to prepare as Fr. Koblosh talked about it in his article: "At Sunday Liturgy, all preparation expressed by kneeling and prostrating comes to fulfillment, and so we stand. The ‘fast’ is fulfilled as it resolves itself into ‘feast.’ " Leaving the Greek church today I heard several people around me commenting to each other that they hadn’t “been to church” for weeks (“so hard to get going… tired from work… rather stay home” as they said to each other). Maybe their priest read Fr. Gisetti’s article and decided to go with kneeling…
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holy_moly
Guest
I’m w/ ya!
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12;
Philippians 2:Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,
Who, 3** though he was in the form of God, **did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. 4
7
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance,
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he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. 6
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Because of this, **God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name, **
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**that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, **
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and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.
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trophybearer
Guest
Read the canons of Nicea and bugger off! It’s not a matter for you to interpret.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Yep, a poetic verse not meant to detail practice, vs. a law of canon meant to delinate practice. Canon wins.Read the canons of Nicea and bugger off! It’s not a matter for you to interpret.
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Aramis
Guest
Poorly stated, but dead on the money theologically.Read the canons of Nicea and bugger off! It’s not a matter for you to interpret.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12;Read the canons of Nicea and bugger off! It’s not a matter for you to interpret.
Forgive me, if Scripture has offended you? I was showing that the Roman latin rite follows the scriptural Tradition by Kneeling as the above scripture indicates.
If your rite prefers to stand at the name of Jesus when he is present in your liturgy God bless you. What I would like to clarify here, is that posture is very important in worship.
From the Latin Rite we prefer to show our reference of worship by kneeling before Jesus Christ’s presence. If you culture displays great reference and worship in the posture of standing God bless you, I do not protest your reverence, I respect it very much because it displays your faithfullness by standing, which is by some cultural standards the highest reverence one can give to God. But according to my culture and Latin Rite which follows the Tradition of the Scripture practice is my highest posture of reference before Jesus Christ presence. I dont see any problem with standing or Kneeling as long as reference is believed and practiced from these postures. So I dont have a problem with the canon.
Peace be with you
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PJM
Guest
The answer to the OPQ is YES:thumbsup:
From the current GRIM which controls and detrrmines actions durring Mss with Rome’s Approval.
- The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53
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Nine_Two
Guest
So what you’re saying is that the Council of Nicea was in error?Gabriel of 12;
Forgive me, if Scripture has offended you? I was showing that the Roman latin rite follows the scriptural Tradition by Kneeling as the above scripture indicates.
If your rite prefers to stand at the name of Jesus when he is present in your liturgy God bless you. What I would like to clarify here, is that posture is very important in worship.
From the Latin Rite we prefer to show our reference of worship by kneeling before Jesus Christ’s presence. If you culture displays great reference and worship in the posture of standing God bless you, I do not protest your reverence, I respect it very much because it displays your faithfullness by standing, which is by some cultural standards the highest reverence one can give to God. But according to my culture and Latin Rite which follows the Tradition of the Scripture practice is my highest posture of reference before Jesus Christ presence. I dont see any problem with standing or Kneeling as long as reference is believed and practiced from these postures. So I dont have a problem with the canon.
Peace be with you
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