Sinless Mary

[Good_Fella]

I found it!

Originally posted by Good Fella

I found it!

With regards to the underlined portion above, indicating how Mary is believed to be the “Ark of the Word made flesh” and the contrast to the quotation taken from ‘Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me’ – Hyppolytus, which states the “He” was the ark formed of incorruptible wood…….“His tabernacle” was exempt from putridity and corruption.”

A few questions - to anyone -

*Is the “Ark of the Word made flesh” the same as “the Ark of the Covenant” - if so - is she also now considered to be “His tabernacle” - or is this simply poetic license taken by Hyppolytus?

Is the excerpt by Hyppolytus now accepted by the Catholic church as teaching that Mary is “His tabernacle” - or is it only another opinion that Catholics can take anyway they want too by the “impressive” way it “implies” support to a questionable belief?

And did Pope Pius IX when he cited his belief in Mary’s sinlessness refer to this quotation?*

If one is to state blatantly that : “You will never see the truth as long as you keep taking the written word literally by focussing on what lies explicitly on the surface of a page. Your faulty premise on which you approach the scriptures naturally leads you to arrive at wrong conclusions and espouse heretical beliefs.” and then proceed to grasp at any thing that “implies” something as way of adding substance to a theory that has little to begin with…they themselves are in danger of possessing an extremely “faulty premise” on which they approach the scriptures, which ultimately will (and has) already produced the teachings of the Catholic church as we know it today.

Pope Pius lX does not have to cite Hyppolytus. Why don’t you read what his Apostolic Constitution ‘Ineffabilis Deus’ says. You’ll gain a better understanding of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

The typology between Mary and the ark of the Old Covenant originates from Luke. I showed you the verses. It’s no theory. Theories abound in the Protestant movement which explains why it’s a divided house with respect to essential doctrines. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church has existed since Pentecost. An individual like yourself who belongs to a post-modern American movement outside the Church is in no viable position to judge the doctrines of the Church.

PAX :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

Matthew 5

10:Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11:Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12:Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

elvisman - you should be rejoicing and be exceedingly glad if you sincerely believe what you posted above.

And even more to the point, I know that I’m blessed by the accusations you’ve made from your own posting, so in a way I should be grateful to you!

Thank you elvisman!

Let’s see. It appears that you are defending the lies you have told as “persecution for righteousness sake”. It is not clear if you believe you are righteous in pandering lies about the Catholic faith.

Then you tell another member that he should be rejoicing because you have told lies about his faith.

Then you finish by claiming that you have been blessed by telling these lies.

Something seems very out of order here!

Who has been a liar from the beginning?

 

[saurav]

THE CHURCH…the Church…early CHURCH Fathers…bible verses quoted as intepreted by …who?..The CHURCH…a POPE…leader of THE CHURCH…Council of Trent…The CHURCH…Why would you think that any of this information would compel anyone to believe it or accept it as being absolute truth…simply because “the Church” states it to be so…but of course!!!..they’re the ones that have stated that they are the only true church…so it MUST be true!!!

I am asking these questions in utter desperation,after having read the whole thread twice over.
Leann, just what is the Church of Christ according to you (I did not ask what the Protestant position is;there cannot be one postion since there is no one Church)?

I have been told by most P friends that it is the community of believers,among other things.If u agree with this,then u wil also agree that this Community started as a tiny group on Pentecost. **Aftr the death of the Apostles, was this true Church-Community still alive? **From what u have ben saying, it appears not,for the following reason:
It was the Bishops of the five Patriarchiate churches that perpetuated the handing down of teaching offices,the manuscripts of Scripture,etc by the “laying on of hands”.These same teachers clearly talked about veneration of the Saints,the Eucharist and other Catholic beliefs,even if rudimentarily: don’t even be dishonest enuf to deny this. Adhering to your conviction that all catholic beliefs are spurious,this Church of the second century could not have been the true church.
**Assuming that the apostles’ church was a Bible-only community,exactly when did your “true Bible church” disappear? Which year, exactly? And where?**Both of us will agree that since 2nd c the Institutionalised Church(which to my asurance was Roman catholic) as we roughly know it today has never been bible-only.Until, I’m sure you will insist,the reformers came along and your ‘true church’,which i could assume had gone into a 1400 year hibernation, finally emerged.
Or maybe you will say the true church was revealed to *you *when an altar-call was made in some underground garage, or school hall,or your living room b4 the TV set.There are thousands of people claiming similar things.
During those 1400 years, the Church I call Mother has produced the great Saints about whom i won’t get started;I don’t want to romanticise the lives of the Saints or the martyrs,because I don’t even expect u to take their “catholic” testimonies as Christian. You just tell me how u can be so certain that u have been chosen as the/a recipient of the “true gospel”.
Such premium on your private understanding…disregarding the saints over the centuries,their lives and the Holy Spirit’s works thru them!
*I want to urge you…do not make the mistake of thinking that you are the first Christian,and that there were no true Christians before you.*If u realise that the “pillar and foundation of Truth” is the Church,the One Holy Catholic Apostolic of the Nicene Creed, and not a book interpreted by arbitrary individual understanding,all your certitudes,which most of us tend to idolise, will disappear.
Blessings and good wishes.

 

[wmscott]

i understand fully what the immaculate conception of Mary involves. In terms of “misinterpretations” has your church ever infallibly interpreted the verses used to support this doctrine to mean that she was sinless? I’m not talking about some doctrinal pronouncement of a pope but an actual interpretation of the passages to mean that Mary was considered sinless by Jesus or His apostles. Does such an interpretation by the Catholic church exist?

Show me where everything has to be based on scripture alone.

 

[elvisman]

Again - you didn’t answer the question I posed - because you can’t.

You retort with silly, smug remarks - intending to be humorous, I guess, but woefully missing the mark.
Just answer the question, Leeann:
Can you show me where the Catholic Church teaches that we raise Mary to divinity and that her Assumption was meant to parallel Jesus’ Ascencion?

---

Unless you can prove this, you’re just another one of the Catholic persecutors spoken of in Matt. 5:10-12 who blows hot air . . .

 

[wmscott]

Its because the Catholic Church is the only Church that historically goes back to Christ and the Apostles. Thus, it must be the Church that Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against. It must be the Church which Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would guide into all truth. It must be the Chruch that the bible calls the pillar and foundation of truth because any student of history would have to admitt that it is the same Church establish by Christ.

Thanks for this answer, it was what i was going to post.

 

[justasking4]

Show me where everything has to be based on scripture alone.

Does not your church want all its doctrines and practices to be grounded in the Scriptures? If so, why would they want this?

 

[GailMac]

Dear Justasking - you state:" Originally Posted by justasking4
If this is the case then why did Paul write these words in Colossians 3:16–Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

???
How were the Christians in the NT to “Let the word of Christ richly dwell within” them?"

He will - in the Blessed Sacrament and another Sacrament called Confession, if you let Him. Can you get your will out of His Way for a while longer?

Peace,

Gail

 

[justasking4]

Dear Justasking - you state:" Originally Posted by justasking4
If this is the case then why did Paul write these words in Colossians 3:16–Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

???
How were the Christians in the NT to “Let the word of Christ richly dwell within” them?"

He will - in the Blessed Sacrament and another Sacrament called Confession, if you let Him. Can you get your will out of His Way for a while longer?

Peace,

Gail

Have you been a catholic for a long time? If so, do you think you know the Scriptures i.e. the Gospels that well?

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Does not your church want all its doctrines and practices to be grounded in the Scriptures? If so, why would they want this?

Actually, the Scriptures are grounded in the Church and always have been. It wasn’t until about 500 years ago somebody came up with the idea to ditch the teachers and leave the students to the textbooks and teach themselves.

You do know that the Catholic Church teaches that our Blessed Mother was saved by God. The exceptional thing is that our Blessed Mother was saved in a most excellent way from the moment of her conception.

Why put new wine into old wine skins?

Last year my grandmother gave my wife her recipe for chocolate chip cookies - made the old fashioned way. My wife followed the recipe precisely; they were good but the cookies didn’t turn out exactly like my grandmothers. My wife asked her “what did I do wrong”? My grandmother replies: “Oh, not a thing honey. I’ve never measure the ingredients, but it’s close enough.” So you see, even if you follow the recipe precisely it doesn’t mean you’ll get it right.

 

[wmscott]

Does not your church want all its doctrines and practices to be grounded in the Scriptures? If so, why would they want this?

This has been explained to you specifically and in depth in post number 319. Did you not read it? You keep hashing over the same old lame arguments, is the truth too much for you to accept?

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella

Pope Pius lX does not have to cite Hyppolytus. Why don’t you read what his Apostolic Constitution ‘Ineffabilis Deus’ says. You’ll gain a better understanding of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

The typology between Mary and the ark of the Old Covenant originates from Luke. I showed you the verses. It’s no theory. Theories abound in the Protestant movement which explains why it’s a divided house with respect to essential doctrines. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church has existed since Pentecost. An individual like yourself who belongs to a post-modern American movement outside the Church is in no viable position to judge the doctrines of the Church.

Yes, I should have done that first, read the document, before asking. Thanks, I’ve done so now, from the Vatican website and I went back and looked at the verses again that you supplied.

NONE of us are in a position to judge anyone….such as you’ve done above….however we are to contend for the faith and a part of doing that means one has to examine and come to a conclusion as to what is truth and what is speculation or theory.

 

[justasking4]

wmscott;4264031]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Does not your church want all its doctrines and practices to be grounded in the Scriptures? If so, why would they want this?

wmscott
This has been explained to you specifically and in depth in post number 319. Did you not read it?

Yes and i didn’t see it address this issue. Secondly, again this idea of a “Sacred Tradition” keeps coming up but there are no specific examples of it. Claiming it exist and demonstating what it is are 2 different things. It has already been admitted that there is no such list of them put out by the Catholic church. If that is the case its useless as a support for anything.

You keep hashing over the same old lame arguments, is the truth too much for you to accept?

View attachment 4258

 

[wmscott]

Yes and i didn’t see it address this issue. Secondly, again this idea of a “Sacred Tradition” keeps coming up but there are no specific examples of it. Claiming it exist and demonstating what it is are 2 different things. It has already been admitted that there is no such list of them put out by the Catholic church. If that is the case its useless as a support for anything.

View attachment 4258

do not confuse man made tradition with Sacred Tradition
1Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you.
2Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter.
2Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition.
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture.
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t. Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels. 2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men.
2Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation.
2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret. 1Pet 1:25 - God’s eternal word = word preached to you.
Rom 10:17 - faith come from what is heard.
1Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached. Mk 16:15 - go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature

 

[justasking4]

Wildgraywolf;4263659]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Does not your church want all its doctrines and practices to be grounded in the Scriptures? If so, why would they want this

Wildgraywolf
Actually, the Scriptures are grounded in the Church and always have been. It wasn’t until about 500 years ago somebody came up with the idea to ditch the teachers and leave the students to the textbooks and teach themselves.

You do know that the Catholic Church teaches that our Blessed Mother was saved by God. The exceptional thing is that our Blessed Mother was saved in a most excellent way from the moment of her conception.

There is no support for this assertion that Mary was “saved in a most excellent way from the moment of her conception” in Scripture. This is something the apostles never taught.

Why put new wine into old wine skins?

Mary was not a wineskin and is never referred to as such.

Last year my grandmother gave my wife her recipe for chocolate chip cookies - made the old fashioned way. My wife followed the recipe precisely; they were good but the cookies didn’t turn out exactly like my grandmothers. My wife asked her “what did I do wrong”? My grandmother replies: “Oh, not a thing honey. I’ve never measure the ingredients, but it’s close enough.” So you see, even if you follow the recipe precisely it doesn’t mean you’ll get it right.

 

[justasking4]

do not confuse man made tradition with Sacred Tradition
1Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you.
2Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter.
2Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition.
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture.
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t. Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels. 2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men.
2Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation.
2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret. 1Pet 1:25 - God’s eternal word = word preached to you.
Rom 10:17 - faith come from what is heard.
1Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached. Mk 16:15 - go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature

Is Sacred Tradition different than the written Scriptures?

 

[wmscott]

Is Sacred Tradition different than the written Scriptures?

YES

 

[Wildgraywolf]

YES

Would you expand on your answer… Do you mean different as to format or teaching?

 

[wmscott]

Is Sacred Tradition different than the written Scriptures?

Yes, but they do not contradict one another, there exists a close connection and communication between Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring (God), in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end

 

[wmscott]

Would you expand on your answer… Do you mean different as to format or teaching?

One is the spoken Word of God the other the the written Word of God