W
wmscott
Guest
you can never find the word Trinity in the Bible.
- Status
G
guanophore
Guest
If you have been overcome by the flesh and it’s desires, perhaps this explains some of the calumny you have posted.
Sure! I don’t find the pandering of untruths about the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church with sarcasm to be very amusing, however.
W
Wildgraywolf
Guest
Leeann, Thing and company… Just out of curiosity how would you prove from Scriptures:
the Trinity?
that Jesus possesses a divine nature and a human nature?
How is our fallen state transmitted; is it inherited from the father, mother or both?
Was Jesus’s human nature in a fallen state? If not why not?
Does good seed sown in tainted soil yield good crops?
G
guanophore
Guest
This is a good question, but it belongs on another thread. It is not related to the sinlessness of Mary.
T
Thing
Guest
OK wildgreywolf, I have to say first I am really a sheep in wolves clothing, but if I were Leeann, and I won’t speak for her, I guess I will have no answer, perhaps she will shunt you off onto a different thread.
W
Wildgraywolf
Guest
Yeah, I was hoping to gain some insight…
W
Wildgraywolf
Guest
Ugh… Me need coffee… Cognitive systems still in warm up mode…
J
justasking4
Guest
We know the Scriptures do not present Mary as being sinless. To claim that she was without sin is to make to say the Scripture is lying when in fact it had been demonstrated in a number of places in Scripture that Mary was not an exception to fall of Adam. This is where you are promoting the very thing you accuse others of.
To even think of making Mary co-medatrix is a claim to deity.
This is why i think you find this so painful. We are showing that the Scriptures don’t line up with Catholic teaching on Mary.
G
guanophore
Guest
Well, we read them differently.
We understand that grace drives out sin, so to be full of grace leaves no room for sin.
We also believe that a person who lives their live according to the principle “Do whatever He tells you” does not sin.
No, ja4. This has not been shown at all. In fact, the opposite is true. It has been demonstrated that there are hundreds of thousands of exceptions.
Leeann has posted lies on the forum. I am willing to believe that she did so in ignorance, and does not realize they are lies. That would mean that the greater sin would belong to the persons that spawned them in the first place.
It may seem like that to a person who does not understand God’s plan for mankind. He wants us to be His co-workers, and partake of His Divine Nature.
Not a bit. I have never claimed that any of the Marian doctrines were derived from the scriptures.
J
justasking4
Guest
These things that Ligori writes in the Glories of Mary are considered true about her. Here is a quote from this book:
CHAPTER 6
**TURN, THEN, MOST GRACIOUS ADVOCATE
Mary Is an Advocate with Power
to Save All **
SO great is the authority that mothers possess over their sons, that even if they are monarchs, and have absolute dominion over every person in their kingdom, yet never can mothers become the subjects of their sons. It is true that Jesus now in Heaven sits at the right of the Father, enjoying that distinction even as Man because of the hypostatic union with the Person of the Divine Word.
He has supreme dominion over all and also over Mary; nevertheless, it can always be said that for a time at least, when He was living in this world, He was pleased to humble himself and be subject to Mary. Says St. Ambrose, Jesus Christ having deigned to make Mary His Mother, inasmuch as He was her Son, He was truly obliged to obey her. And for this reason, says Richard of St. Laurence, "Of other Saints we say that they are with God; but of Mary alone can it be said that she was so far favored as to be not only herself submissive to the will of God, but even that God was subject to her will.
Therefore we say that, even though Mary can no longer command her Son, since they are not on earth any more, still her prayers are always the prayers of a Mother and are therefore most powerful in obtaining whatever she asks.
At the command of Mary all obey, even God. 38
She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. 39
Are these things true of Mary or not? Does she have power to save all? Does she command God Himself to obey her?
Note also he claims she is omnipotent. Only God is omnipotent.
Since the Catholic church fully endorses this work and this work makes her out to be some kind of goddess i.e. omnipotent. There is no other conclusion to draw that even though Catholics deny they deify her in reality one of its great teachers has done so.
It is you who stands in the way of the truth by not exposing these things and supporting these doctrines.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeann
Now we’re talking!
The real early catholic church that Jesus was establishing!
“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
Luke 10, 16 (scripture posted by Good Fella)
We’ve been through this before, Jesus founded his church on the merit of Peter’s statement – and to claim that the Catholic church of today is the same, by “apostolic succession”, as those very early churches – is preposterous.*
(to be continued)
The Church Jesus speaks of is the same Holy Catholic Apostolic Church built on Peter alone and founded on the Apostles and through them their valid successors with Christ as the head. Jesus does not build his Church on individual Leeann types. Your mentality resembles that of the two greatest heretics in Church history: Arius and Luther, who as lone individuals arrogantly defied the divine teaching authority of the Catholic Church.
Jesus did not establish his Church merely on the merits of Peter’s statement. The apostle’s name was changed from Simon to Peter (Rock) as Abram’s name was changed to Abraham and Saul’s name was changed to Paul, indicating his unique position of primacy among the other apostles. Peter was the one who was given the keys. The Church was established and built on Peter alone with the other apostles serving as the foundation. Peter’s profession of faith is the first and most fundamental infallible declaration made by any of the popes who succeed him. It was by the grace of God that Peter acquired this knowledge, not by flesh and blood or by any merit on his part. The merit does rest with his graced privilege to perceive the divine truth. But this single privilege is a sign that Peter was chosen to act as Christ’s vicar on earth, modelling the Davidic kingdom in which the king’s prime minister had the power to “bind and loose.” “The New Testament lies hidden in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament,” says Augustine. Jesus and the apostles were devout Jews who appealled to Judaic tradition. Pope Pius lX declared the historic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception an infallible dogma ‘ex cathedra’: “from the chair of Peter.”
Your interpretation of the text holds no water. I suggest you do some objective research on the subject before engaging in wishful thinking or repeating the same rationalizations one finds on Protestant websites.
The Catholic Church has always been the early Church of apostolic and post-apostolic time:
“Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”
John 6, 54-56
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 11, 23-27
“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 7:1 (c.A.D.110)
And coming to her he said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God.”
Luke 1, 28, 30
*
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God; immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”*
Origen, Homily, 1 (A.D. 244)
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”
Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388)
The doctrines of the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist and the sinlessness of Mary were consistently taught by the Church Fathers for eight centuries. Hyppolytus (ante 235) portrays Mary as a type of ark of the Old Covenant, but Proclus of Constantinople (ante 446) appears to be the first among them to explicitly perceive Mary as having been immaculately conceived:
“As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her without any stain.”
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Catholic Church is the early Church.
PAX :tiphat:
G
Good_Fella
Guest
Diagnosis: Off Topic anti-Catholic propaganda!
I suggest you go back and contemplate on the narrative of the wedding feast at Cana. And search the Old Testament. The Queen Mother of the Davidic kingdom prefigures Mary. You’re a slow learner, my friend. And stop taking things so literally. That’s your problem.
Your faith is so shallow and dry.
J
justasking4
Guest
How is this propaganda if its something the Catholic church endorses?Diagnosis: Off Topic anti-Catholic propaganda!
I suggest you go back and contemplate on the narrative of the wedding feast at Cana. You’re a slow learner, my friend. And stop taking things so literally. That’s your problem.
W
Wildgraywolf
Guest
If Mary was in a fallen state would Jesus’s human nature also be in a fallen state?
If good seed is sown on tainted soil wouldn’t the harvest be tainted as well?
Doesn’t a farmer prepare his field for planting?
Does he not fertilize the ground, till the soil and remove stones?
G
Good_Fella
Guest
That’s what I mean by propaganda. You object to something because the Church endorses it. Besides, it’s off-topic.
A
a_mirror_dimly
Guest
…and yet you accept that a sinless Mary was born from sinful parents, no?
Unless there was an unbroken chain of sinless people from the time of Adam, if you accept Jesus as outside original sin then there must have been someone born pure from someone sinful.
L
Leeann
Guest
Side note: I’d love to respond back in kind - but some people on here aren’t as quick on the uptake and get confused and miss what’s happening and quickly grab a statement and then post back with all sorts of accusations and it just gets too time consuming…
However, seriously, if you read that verse and the ones that accompany it I’m sure you’ll know what I was referring too.
You do have a bible don’t you…and you’re now encouraged to actually read it I understand?
G
guanophore
Guest
They certainly seem to be that way from Ligouri’s perspective. He is entitled to his own opinion as much as you are, don’t you think?
She has the power, just as each of us do, to accomplish all that God desires for her life. Does God every use you to save anyone?
I suppose she probably did when he was a child. It would not surpise me if she hollered “Jesus, don’t run in front of that cart!” or something similar. Brush your teeth, take your bath, go to bed, etc.
Personally, I think “command” is not the proper word.
Note also he claims she is omnipotent. Only God is omnipotent.
No, ja4. This material is not “fully endorsed” by the Church. You are thinking of the Catechism, perhaps?
How did he get to be a 'great teacher"? In any case, the private devotions of teachers, however great, are not necessarily the same as Church Teaching. The Catholic Church does not consider Mary a deity, omnipotent, or a goddess.
I can assure you that the Church does not teach that Mary is omnipotent. She may seem omnipotent to Ligouri in his own life, but that is not a church teaching.
ja4, It is not my God appointed ministry, as you have claimed it is yours, to go through the world finding fault with others’ beliefs. You have stated that this is what you feel called by God to do, and you have brought your detractions here to CAF, and urged Catholics to “confront” the Magesterium and “depose” them for teaching false doctrines.
It has no bearing on my faith if another Catholic believes or practices devotion to Mary. It is not required for me to do so, and this material you have posted is not part of the Teaching of the Church. If you wish to find fault with Ligouri, you are posting in the wrong forum.
G
guanophore
Guest
What does that mean “endorses”?
And the reason it is off topic is because it is not related to Mary’s sinlessness. You are picking at the words “omnipotent” and “command God” and neither of these has anything to do with the thread topic.
It ispropoganda is because you are out fishing for literature you can use to fan the flames of anti-Catholicism. You have used this post to criticize Catholics because we have not confronted the “false teachers” in the Church, which also has nothing to do with the thread!
Your bigotry is leaking.
T
Thing
Guest
Somebody created a special thread just for your idea about there having been many churches established as opposed to just one Church. If you have any fresh thoughts on that matter you can post them there. Here
Side note: I’d love to respond back in kind - but some people on here aren’t as quick on the uptake and get confused and miss what’s happening and quickly grab a statement and then post back with all sorts of accusations and it just gets too time consuming…
However, seriously, if you read that verse and the ones that accompany it I’m sure you’ll know what I was referring too.
You do have a bible don’t you…and you’re now encouraged to actually read it I understand?
- Status