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christmary4ever
Guest
There is no parallel between Assumption and
Assencion.
Code:
Mary was assumed into heaven by the power ofKing of Kings.
It clearly states that Mary is a creature subordinate to God.
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Assencion.
King of Kings.
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Good_Fella
Guest
How on earth did you manage to arrive at such a reckless conclusion? Jesus does not send out these seventy-two disciples to establish independent churches in his name. He is simply sending out witnesses to himself and his ministry. Their task is to preach what Jesus has been teaching and to bear witness to the miracles he has performed. They may even have taken over John the Baptist’s role by calling people to repentance and baptizing them. Further, since only Luke refers to these disciples being given instructions resembling those given to the twelve apostles, as recounted in Mark 6: 6-13 and Luke 22:35, the evangelist may be referring to disciples of Christ who were called to give witness in Luke’s own day after Pentecost. In that case they would be sent out by Peter and the Apostles in Christ’s name. Jesus would speak through them to appoint the others.Leeann said:
The one universal Church was born at Pentecost when the promised Paraclete descended on Peter and the twelve Apostles in the cenacle where they were gathered. Jesus himself established the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church which these same 72 disciples served under the governance of Peter and the Eleven at the time. The event at Pentecost clearly reveals who the appointed Vicar of Christ is once the universal Church is born. It is the apostle who takes charge and speaks as the leader of the single community of faith. This apostle is no other than the blessed Peter. [Acts 2: 1- 41]. I’m afraid you’ve taken Luke completely out of context with respect to Matthew to fit your own system of ecclesiology.
“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail you; and once you have turned your back, you must strengthen your brothers.”
Luke 22, 31-32
There was One Holy Catholic Apostolic early Church consisting of five Patriarchates with the eventual inclusion of Constantinople. The Bishop of Rome, who succeeded Peter, was recognized as having juridical authority over all the Patriarchates. The early Church was a single unity of faith, though it was besieged by heretics.
“The Church of God which sojourns at Rome to the Church of God which sojourns at Corinth…If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us (The Bishop of Rome), let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.”
Clement of Rome, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1, 59:1 (c.A.D. 96)
*“Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicated.” *
Pope Victor 1 [reign A.D. 189-198] in Eusebius EH, 24:9 (A.D. 192)
“After such things as these, moreover, they still dare – a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics – to set sail and bear letters from schismatics and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access.”
Cyprian, To Cornelius, Epistle 54/59:14 (A.D. 252)
“Joining to yourself, therefore, the sovereign of our See, and assuming our place with authority, you will execute this sentence with accurate rigour: that within ten days, counted from the day of your notice, he shall condemn his (Nestorious’) false teachings in a written confession.”
Pope Celestine, To Cyril of Alexandria, Epistle 11 (A.D. 430)
[cf. Mt. 16:18-19; Lk. 22:31-32]
I expect you’ll once again object to the quotes I’ve provided. But your knowledge of Church history is scant. Anyway, let’s get back on topic before this thread gets pruned.
PAX :tiphat:
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christmary4ever
Guest
Nice try shifting the argument.
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guanophore
Guest
I revised my comment, conceding that you posted lies, and that I recognize they may not have originated from yourself, but that you may be pandering what was given to you, making your source more guilty of the greater sin.
There is no need for you to take my word for ja4. Just run a search on that username, and it is all out there to read and weep over.
It is true that hostility engenders more hostility. It is also true that I get very angry when people lie about what the Catholic church teaches. Oh how I groan until Christ can be formed in me!
Do you believe that you have backed up your libel with facts? Where are the church documents and teachings that support the assertion you made about what Catholics believe?
In generosity, I will allow that I may have misunderstood your post:
"SIA:
i must disagree with you. The RCC does raise Mary to divinity. It parallels her with Christ on all of the Marian dogmas. It claims that Mary was sinless like only Christ was. It claims that Mary was taken into heaven body and soul which parallels the resurrection of Christ and it claims that Mary was born without sin like only Christ was. Furthermore, Catholicism claims that Mary was and is perfect and is the queen of Heaven which parallels that Jesus is the King of the Universe. The Mary of Catholic theology is not the Mary of the Scriptures.
What bandwagon was that? Do you agree with what SIA posted?Hi Elvisman - I’m going to jump on the piggyback too!
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christmary4ever
Guest
I am talking about actual sins, sins committed after a person
reaches the age of reason if they are mentally capable of doing
so.
The Pope is infallible in teaching in matters of faith and morals.
but he is human capable of sinning. This are two seperate reality.
Code:
Paul,James,John and Peter are all sinners ,but they wereCan you furnish me a written proof that the Catholic church
has only infallibly interpreted less than 20 scriptures.
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cfrancis
Guest
Very nice: you’ve now included Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark and Luke when they were writing Scripture.
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christmary4ever
Guest
Mary is very ssignificant. If She is good enough For Jesus,SheHi elvisman!
Well of course not…but you’d at least expect it to remain Christian in its perspectives!
Or in this case - a conglomeration of spurious ideas.
To borrow from another poster’s form of response:
I just interpret it differently!
Already discussed this in a previous post….re: the Magnificat, etc., etc…etc.
Not all Catholics believe this.
The Ark in Catholic tradition
Catholic tradition, led by the Fathers of the Church, has considered the Ark of the Covenant as one of the purest and richest symbols of the realities of the New Law.
It signifies, in the first place, the Incarnate Word of God.
**“Christ himself”, says St. Thomas Aquinas, “was signified by the Ark. For in the same manner as the Ark was made of setim wood, so also was the body of Christ composed of the most pure human substance. The Ark was entirely overlaid with gold, because Christ was filled with wisdom and charity, which gold symbolizes. In the Ark there was a golden vase: this represents Jesus’ most holy soul containing the fulness of sanctity and the godhead, figured by the manna. **There was also Aaron’s rod, to indicate the sacerdotal of Jesus Christ priest forever. Finally the stone tables of the Law were likewise contained in the Ark, to mean that Jesus Christ is the author of the Law”.
In like manner the Ark might be very well regarded as a mystical figure of the Blessed Virgin, called by the Church the “Ark of the Covenant” — Faederis Arca.
Tell me why you choose to believe more in the theory of Mary’s significance than in that of Jesus’ with regards to the Ark?
should be good enough for you. Even if not all Catholics agree that She is not the NewArk of Covenant, does not matter.
The truth of the catholic teaching stands.
Unlike your church where truth is decided by argumentative
cleverness and the number of people who suscribe to it.
Our church has the absolute guidance of the Holy Spirit.
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Leeann
Guest
What assertion in particular are you referring too?
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Leeann
Guest
guanophore:
I hit the “submit” too soon and realized when I did I should have added some “document” proof in relation to that last statement I made with regards to Mary - will get to it and post.
I hit the “submit” too soon and realized when I did I should have added some “document” proof in relation to that last statement I made with regards to Mary - will get to it and post.
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cfrancis
Guest
Thank you for your opinion.
Sometimes too simple is misleading. Christ is sinless because of His divine nature; Mary is only what she is because of God, not by any power of her own, or by her nature.
Christ ascended into heaven on His own power; Mary could not be assumed into heaven but for the power of God.
Again, Mary is only what she is by the grace and power of God.
In all the examples above, your logic leads us to state Peter and Paul are raised “to divinity,” as they healed and raised people from the dead, which parallels Christ’s healing and raising people from the dead.
How does being the Queen-mother parallel the Kingship of Jesus Christ?
Better stated as, “the Mary as I envision Catholic theology presents is not the Mary of Scriptures” to which the Catholic Church would agree.
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christmary4ever
Guest
How do you know that each book is inspired in the
bible when you do not know how it got there?
Who was given the knowledge of the list of books
that should compose the Bible?
There are books in the !st to 4th century that
are considered inspired by prominent christians
yet did not make it to the bible. and they too claim
that those books stand on their own merit.
Without an Authority designated by God to discern
it will be impossible to come up with a canon of
inspired books.
Did God inform each faithful believers what books,
to include in the Bible and gather in 1 place at a
specific date and determine the canon?
Or Did He authorized 1 church and Guide them
to discover the list of inspired books?
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christmary4ever
Guest
Why are you so hostile To Mother Mary?
Do you really think you are honoring and
pleasing Jesus by doing so?
Do you not have any respect for Motherhood?
You base your idea that We worship Mary
based on the behavior of some catholics you
know.
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Leeann
Guest
Hi RobHom
Finally got back to you…hope this helps.
1 John 5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19[And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
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christmary4ever
Guest
I stand on the Word of God and i know it does not teach Mary being sinless.Its not if you want to establish the idea that Mary was sinless.
Bad theology for this hymn.
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I don’t dispute Mary being blessed. The question is: what does it mean to be blessed in the context where we find it? Is there any hint of being sinless on the part of Mary in Luke 1?
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Huh???I have never done such a thing.
If this is what you believe then you have a serious problem on your hands. On the one hand the Scriptures don’t support the idea that Mary was sinless and on the other your church says she was. Both positions cannot be right. You cannot hold to both.
This is a matter of sound reasoning from the Scriptures and not about some kind of emotional spiritual expierence. If it is of the Spirit there will be harmony with the Scriptures.
The Catholic Church is not seperated from
Scriptures. So tell me What does it mean to be
Full of Grace? Enlighten us in your impeccable
style of inerpreting Scripture.
AND SHOW US THE BOOK,CHAPTER AND
VERSE to support it.
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christmary4ever
Guest
If conversion for catholics is your purpose, you
will be disappointed. None of your explanations are
convincing. CAF is not the right place for you.
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justasking4
Guest
Excellent comments and questions but they are off topic…
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Leeann
Guest
Hi Christmary4ever
Hi Christmary4ever
_________________________________________________
Hi Christmary4ever
I believe Mary is significant, just not in the same way that was being attributed to her to as with regards to the “context” of the above quotes.
Is it a firm teaching of the Catholic church that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant or is it just something that can either be believed or not?
Well, that’s a whole other topic isn’t it?
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justasking4
Guest
The Catholic Church is not seperated fromI stand on the Word of God and i know it does not teach Mary being sinless.
Scriptures. So tell me What does it mean to be
Full of Grace? Enlighten us in your impeccable
style of inerpreting Scripture.
AND SHOW US THE BOOK,CHAPTER AND
VERSE to support it.
This is the definition of “full of grace” from a Greek lexicon:
“Full of grace
χαριτόω charitóō; contracted charitó̄, fut. charitó̄sō, from cháris (5485), grace. To grace, highly honor or greatly favor. In the NT spoken only of the divine favor, as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28, kecharitōménē, the perf. pass. part. sing. fem. The verb charitóō declares the virgin Mary to be highly favored, approved of God to conceive the Son of God through the Holy Spirit. The only other use of charitóō is in Eph. 1:6 where believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved,” i.e., objects of grace.”
Zodhiates, S. (2000, c1992, c1993). The complete word study dictionary : New Testament (electronic ed.) (G5486). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers
Note in this definition there is no mention of someone in this state i.e. kecharitōménē as being without sin.
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justasking4
Guest
christmary4ever;4273408]
justasking4.
I stand on the Word of God and i know it does not teach Mary being sinless.
This is the definition of “full of grace” from a Greek lexicon:
“Full of grace
χαριτόω charitóō; contracted charitó̄, fut. charitó̄sō, from cháris (5485), grace. To grace, highly honor or greatly favor. In the NT spoken only of the divine favor, as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28, kecharitōménē, the perf. pass. part. sing. fem. The verb charitóō declares the virgin Mary to be highly favored, approved of God to conceive the Son of God through the Holy Spirit. The only other use of charitóō is in Eph. 1:6 where believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved,” i.e., objects of grace.”
Zodhiates, S. (2000, c1992, c1993). The complete word study dictionary : New Testament (electronic ed.) (G5486). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers
Note in this definition there is no mention of someone in this state i.e. kecharitōménē as being without sin.
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cfrancis
Guest
Here’s more study on the word kecharitōménē
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