Sinless Mary

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann

The Ark in Catholic tradition

**Catholic tradition, led by the Fathers of the Church, has considered the Ark of the Covenant as one of the purest and richest symbols of the realities of the New Law.
It signifies, in the first place, the Incarnate Word of God.
“Christ himself”, says St. Thomas Aquinas, “was signified by the Ark. **For in the same manner as the Ark was made of setim wood, so also was the body of Christ composed of the most pure human substance. The Ark was entirely overlaid with gold, because Christ was filled with wisdom and charity, which gold symbolizes. In the Ark there was a golden vase: this represents Jesus’ most holy soul containing the fulness of sanctity and the godhead, figured by the manna. There was also Aaron’s rod, to indicate the sacerdotal of Jesus Christ priest forever. Finally the stone tables of the Law were likewise contained in the Ark, to mean that Jesus Christ is the author of the Law”.
In like manner the Ark might be very well regarded as a mystical figure of the Blessed Virgin, called by the Church the “Ark of the Covenant” — Faederis Arca.

Good Fella
St.Thomas Aquinas makes no direct reference to Mary as the ark as he does with respect to Jesus, as far as I know, but he alludes to Mary as the ark when he speaks of her Assumption into heaven. The following passage is from the angelic doctor’s discourse on the ‘Hail Mary’ prayer:

*“Three curses come to men because of sin: the first, to woman, who will conceive with stain, bear with heaviness and give birth in sorrow (pain). But the Blessed Virgin was immuned to this, because she conceived without sin, bore in comfort and joyfully gave birth to the Saviour. Isaiah 35:2: < It shall bud forth and blossom, and shall rejoice with joy and praise. > The second curse is the man’s, who must earn his bread with the sweat of his brow. The Blessed Virgin was immune to this, because as the Apostle says in 1 Corinthians 7:32: < He who is unmarried (or a virgin) is concerned about the things of the Lord.” > The third is common to men and women, namely into dust they shall return. The Blessed Virgin was free of this, because she was assumed in the body into heaven. Psalm 131:8: < Arise, O Lord, into thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy majesty."

On the Angelic Salutation*

It would appear that Aquinas shared the Catholic perception of Mary as a type of ark of the Old Covenant. :yup:

It would appear that Aquinas (as indicated by your statement of his “alluding”) and Hyppolytus (Post #651 with his practice of “typology”) are not clearly sure of **what **they believed at any given time.

 

[GailMac]

Dear Wildgraywolf - you ask these quesitons: "Leeann, Thing and company… Just out of curiosity how would you prove from Scriptures:

the Trinity?
that Jesus possesses a divine nature and a human nature?
How is our fallen state transmitted; is it inherited from the father, mother or both?

Was Jesus’s human nature in a fallen state? If not why not?

Does good seed sown in tainted soil yield good crops?"

Don’t you believe in a Sacrament called Confession? Or would you prefer God doesn’t get His peace with the poor souls you want to taunt and tease with their supposed errors? Are you trying to prevent God from having His Way with His children?

I think so.

Peace,

Gail

 

[Good_Fella]

Originally Posted by Leeann

It would appear that Aquinas (as indicated by your statement of his “alluding”) and Hyppolytus (Post #651 with his practice of “typology”) are not clearly sure of **what **they believed at any given time.

Please!

 

[Leeann]

Dear Wildgraywolf - you ask these quesitons: "Leeann, Thing and company… Just out of curiosity how would you prove from Scriptures:

the Trinity?

that Jesus possesses a divine nature and a human nature?

How is our fallen state transmitted; is it inherited from the father, mother or both?

Was Jesus’s human nature in a fallen state? If not why not?

Does good seed sown in tainted soil yield good crops?"

Don’t you believe in a Sacrament called Confession? Or would you prefer God doesn’t get His peace with the poor souls you want to taunt and tease with their supposed errors? Are you trying to prevent God from having His Way with His children?

I think so.

Peace,

Gail

Side Note: “Thing” isn’t really supposed to be grouped in with me and “company”…but it’s okay with me personally
Thank you for your opinion!

 

[Leeann]

Please!

WELLLLLLLL…!!!

Gee - there’s a lot to be said for these “one word” replies…saves a lot of time posting !!!

 

[justasking4]

Leeann;4274464:

You can try but I wish you luck. Just don’t confuse the Magisterium with individual bishops or patriarchates.

PAX
Huh? The Magisterium is composed of fallible men. If the parts are fallible the whole is also.

 

[Leeann]

Justasking (#663)

Oh no,no,no!!!

That is not an “Original post”: by (me) Leeann

That was posted by Good Fella TO me.

I can get into enough trouble all by myself!!!

 

[justasking4]

Justasking (#663)

Oh no,no,no!!!

That is not an “Original post”: by (me) Leeann

That was posted by Good Fella TO me.

I can get into enough trouble all by myself!!!

This issue is important. In fact it probably is the main issue for catholics which is authority. No matter how well we make our case if the church says otherwise they simply will not believe no matter how incoherent the reasons.

 

[Leeann]

This issue is important. In fact it probably is the main issue for catholics which is authority. No matter how well we make our case if the church says otherwise they simply will not believe no matter how incoherent the reasons.

Hi justasking4

What I meant was, that in your posting, it appears as if it was “my” original quote - and I just know that someone new will come in, or someone that hasn’t been following all the postings will think that I posted that.

See?

 

[guanophore]

This issue is important. In fact it probably is the main issue for catholics which is authority. No matter how well we make our case if the church says otherwise they simply will not believe no matter how incoherent the reasons.

It may seem incoherant to you, but to us, it is faith seeking knowledge, not knowledge seeking faith. We recieve the divine deposit of faith from the Apostolic Succession. This is how Jesus set things up. Those in authority receive His protection and the leading into all truth.

We are forbidden to abandon the faith for which our ancestors gave their lives, and for which, Jesus gave His.

Hi justasking4

What I meant was, that in your posting, it appears as if it was “my” original quote - and I just know that someone new will come in, or someone that hasn’t been following all the postings will think that I posted that.

See?

Since you are both on the thread, and I know you both have trouble using the quote features, I will be very careful not to assume.

 

[RobHom]

Huh? The Magisterium is composed of fallible men. If the parts are fallible the whole is also.

Your lack of understanding of the Magesterium is abysmal.

But lets take your viewpoint and use it:

Based on your premise, you being a fallible human, everything about you…absolutely everything about you is FALLIBLE. Therefore, everything you believe is fallible, which in turn could mean corrupt.

Ok, now that we’ve resolved that… Where’s the “Royal Flush” you seem to think you are holding?

 

[Good_Fella]

This issue is important. In fact it probably is the main issue for catholics which is authority. No matter how well we make our case if the church says otherwise they simply will not believe no matter how incoherent the reasons.

You haven’t made your case very well, I’m afraid. And you never will.

 

[RobHom]

You haven’t made your case very well, I’m afraid. And you never will.

Ummmm, which or what case… I’m afraid he is beginning to resemble a pinball player with 7 balls in action on the table and going nuts with the flippers…

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella;4274959:

Huh? The Magisterium is composed of fallible men. If the parts are fallible the whole is also.

It is the Holy Spirit who infallibly teaches us through the Magisterium: the Pope in communion with the College of Bishops. Papal infallibilty is a charism. The apostles were also fallible men, but they were inspired to write what they did by the Holy Spirit who speaks for Christ to his Church through them. Thus Scripture must be interpreted by their valid successors in light of Apostolic Tradition of the Catholic Church which was born at Pentecost with the coming of the Paraclete.

 

[guanophore]

Good Fella;4274959:

Huh? The Magisterium is composed of fallible men. If the parts are fallible the whole is also.

Maybe a basic math class, introduction to philosophy, or a logic class might help. Your logical fallacies are just overwhelming.

Jesus is Head of the Church. We are His body. Do the fallible members of Christ’s body make the whole fallible? According to this reasoning, Christ is fallible!

This is how the Magesterium works:

Acts 15:27-28
28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us…"

It is the communion of the bishops, in communion with the successor of Peter, being guided, protected, and preserved by the Holy Spirit. This is why it is infallible. The HS is the mover, and He is infallible.

 

[Good_Fella]

justasking4;4277221:

Maybe a basic math class, introduction to philosophy, or a logic class might help. Your logical fallacies are just overwhelming.

Jesus is Head of the Church. We are His body. Do the fallible members of Christ’s body make the whole fallible? According to this reasoning, Christ is fallible!

This is how the Magesterium works:

Acts 15:27-28
28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us…"

It is the communion of the bishops, in communion with the successor of Peter, being guided, protected, and preserved by the Holy Spirit. This is why it is infallible. The HS is the mover, and He is infallible.

It’s about time JA4&Co takes his or her own advice by examining the scriptures more closely. And he or she should keep in mind, by examining Acts 15, that Church doctrines originate from the Holy Spirit - not the Bible.

 

[Leeann]

GoodFella

Good Fella:The scriptures do not tell us that these 72 disciples were sent out to establish their own churches without a central authority to teach and govern them or to establish churches at all: only to bear witness.
[9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Good Fella:The cells of followers gained by the individual disciples (if in fact before the death and resurrection of Christ ) will eventually unite in one faith under one roof with the descent of the Holy Spirit.

Haven’t got a problem with this……as already posted by me previously.
However what do you mean by the “bracketed” part above – (“if in fact before the death and resurrection of Christ” ) – and in a previous post, you made this statement:

Post 620 - Good Fella: Further, since only Luke refers to these disciples being given instructions resembling those given to the twelve apostles, as recounted in Mark 6: 6-13 and Luke 22:35, the evangelist may be referring to disciples of Christ who were called to give witness in Luke’s own day after Pentecost. In that case they would be sent out by Peter and the Apostles in Christ’s name. Jesus would speak through them to appoint the others.

**Luke 10: **
[1] After these things the Lord appointed ****other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face ****into every city and place, whither he himself would come.[2] Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
[3] Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
[4] Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
[5] And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
[6] And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
[7] And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
[8] And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
[9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Good Fella:There was no church before Pentecost. Our Lord’s disciples were still worshipping in the temple as devout Jews after the resurrection and ascension for a short while. Matthew 16:18-19 makes it clear: Jesus establishes his one universal Catholic Church on Peter alone with the Apostles as the foundation. The Christian community eventually distinguished itself from the Judaic faith. Matthew’s community perceived this to be the case. Luke was also aware of this tradition. He records in Acts 15, besides the event of Pentecost, the Council of Jerusalem. Again it is Peter who assumes what is evidently a position of primacy by being the apostle to open the Council with an address to the assembly. The Bishop of Jerusalem, James the Just (also James the less son of Alphaeus, the brother - cousin - of our Lord), then ratifies what Peter has declared and passes judgment with respect to Peter’s words. Note that there are presybters present besides Peter and the Apostles. The apostles assume the teaching and governing office of the Church among the other general disciples.

Already posted something similar to the underlined portion myself in a previous post, so I have not problem with that….it’s only the part about

“….Jesus establishes his one universal Catholic Church on Peter alone with the Apostles as the foundation.”
…………………assuming that you’re indicating that it’s the same Catholic church today?

Good Fella:The apostles are aware that their teachings and instructions are guided by the Holy Spirit. The Magisterium of the Church is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit in the official declarations of Church doctrines and dogmas, including the Immaculate Conception which is no less true than the dogma of the Holy Trinity.

And how again do you know that the Magisterium of the Church is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit…

 

[guanophore]

I have not problem with that….it’s only the part about

“….Jesus establishes his one universal Catholic Church on Peter alone with the Apostles as the foundation.”
…………………assuming that you’re indicating that it’s the same Catholic church today?

And how again do you know that the Magisterium of the Church is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit…

I think you have already made it clear that you do not recognize the Church that Jesus founded in the CAtholic Church today.

Catholics can know that the Magesterium is guided and protected by the HS because we believe what Jesus said. He said:

John 14:18-19
18 "I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you.

Matt 28:20
And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

John 16:13-15
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

We do not think he was lying when He said these things, or that he is a weakling, and cannot keep His promises, or that he does not care enough to fulfill his word.

The infallibility of the Church is not dependent upon men, but on the Head of the Church, who is Christ, and the soul of the Church, which is the HS.

2 Tim 2:13
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful —
for he cannot deny himself.

Eph 5:25-28
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.

We believe that Jesus has been espoused to the Church, and He will not abandon her. He gave up His life for her, and will do all that he has promised.

I could see how a person who does not believe Jesus would not be able to accept these things about the Church He founded.

 

[RobHom]

And how again do you know that the Magisterium of the Church is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit…

And how again do you know that the spirit that is guiding you is the Holy Spirit??

 

[Jesusisgod]

Mary was not sinless.

How can it be even remotely possible for Mary to be sinless when the Bible says clearly :

"Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

Its written that ALL men have sinned. That’s also the reason why Jesus Christ had to come be crucified on the cross for our sins to redeem us. So, how could Mary be sinless?

When the Bible refers to the righteous, it never says these people are sinless either. It just says ‘the righteous shall live by faith’.

Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

In other words, Mary is no different from you and me. We’re all sinners.

.