Sinless Mary

[Leeann]

Hi Good Fella

Now we’re talking!
The real early catholic church that Jesus was establishing!
“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
Luke 10, 16 (scripture posted by Good Fella)

________________________________________________****

How on earth did you manage to arrive at such a reckless conclusion? Jesus does not send out these seventy-two disciples to establish independent churches in his name. He is simply sending out witnesses to himself and his ministry. Their task is to preach what Jesus has been teaching and to bear witness to the miracles he has performed. They may even have taken over John the Baptist’s role by calling people to repentance and baptizing them.

 

[Leeann]

(cont’d. for Good Fella)

(bear with me…I’ll tie it in to “Sinless Mary”)

Good Fella:The event at Pentecost clearly reveals who the appointed Vicar of Christ is once the universal Church is born. It is the apostle who takes charge and speaks as the leader of the single community of faith. This apostle is no other than the blessed Peter. [Acts 2: 1- 41].

"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail you; and once you have turned your back, you must strengthen your brothers."
Luke 22, 31-32

And I have no problem with that whatsoever….(well the appointed “Vicar of Christ” title is a bit much) but it is obvious that Peter had done a complete turn around and was indeed the one most bold and lead by the Spirit to speak out and preach and take command of a situation and “strengthen” his brothers. (such as he did at the Jerusalem conference when things got out of hand…he stood up and spoke first, before Barnabas and Paul and James) and as is evident in the verses above, the church grew, but what is also evident in those verses, is that it does not resemble the Catholic church as we know it today or as even those that you’ve quoted below, knew it in their time.
Acts 2: V 38 - 47

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Good Fella :I’m afraid you’ve taken Luke completely out of context with respect to Matthew to fit your own system of ecclesiology.

Not at all……Matthew refers to the sending out of the twelve disciples/Apostles –
**Luke 9 **also records this event…and Luke 10 records the above, where Jesus sent out the 70+ disciples.

Good Fella: There was One Holy Catholic Apostolic early Church consisting of five Patriarchates with the eventual inclusion of Constantinople. The Bishop of Rome, who succeeded Peter, was recognized as having juridical authority over all the Patriarchates. The early Church was a single unity of faith, though it was besieged by heretics.

“The Church of God which sojourns at Rome to the Church of God which sojourns at Corinth…If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us (The Bishop of Rome), let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.”
Clement of Rome, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1, 59:1 (c.A.D. 96)

*“Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately **attempted **to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicated.”
Pope Victor 1 [reign A.D. 189-198] in Eusebius EH, 24:9 (**A.D. *192)

“After such things as these, moreover, they still dare – a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics – to set sail and bear letters from schismatics and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access.”
Cyprian, To Cornelius, Epistle 54/59:14 (A.D. 252)

“Joining to yourself, therefore, the sovereign of our See, and assuming our place with authority, you will execute this sentence with accurate rigour: that within ten days, counted from the day of your notice, he shall condemn his (Nestorious’) false teachings in a written confession.”
Pope Celestine, To Cyril of Alexandria, Epistle 11 (A.D. 430)
[cf. Mt. 16:18-19; Lk. 22:31-32]

How does this all tie in with “Sinless Mary” - perhaps some remnants from the heretic teachings that the very early churches were battling were and are still being battled within the church today.

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi Good Fella

Yes…but John the Baptist did not heal in Jesus name.
I think you may have arrived at a reckless conclusion that I wasn’t proposing.

I should have extended the verses I posted and included V 15 – 20 (posted below and “bolded”). As you can see, it clearly explains how these disciples that Jesus sent out did more than just preach and bear witness to the miracles that He had performed, they also performed miracles, in His name and “the devils” were subject to them. They were to go before Jesus, establishing a “circuit” where He would visit and preach/teach/heal.
His church was being established.

But that’s not the case, as stated in Luke 10 it was “the Lord”, Jesus, **who appointed these disciples **and sent them out to every city and place where He would be going./COLOR]
He gave these disciples the same authority and powers that He gave when He sent out the Apostles prior to this (see Luke 9) – and all of these things happened prior to the Pentecost.John the Baptist was still alive (either in prison/or just before his beheading).

Luke 10:
[1] After these things **the Lord appointed **other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
[2] Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
[3] Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
[4] Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
[5] And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
[6] And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
[7] And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
[8] And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
[9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
[10] But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
[11] Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
[12] But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
[13] Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
[14] But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
[15] And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
[16] He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
[19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[20] Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

YES! To the underlined part above – not only the 72 disciples themselves, but the churches – groups of believers in each city/village, that they had gone out to establish when Jesus sent them out before Him.

The distinction made above about the HS descending on Peter and the Apostles, is unnecessary, as shown below they were all together and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2 V 1 – 4

I never said that John the Baptist physically healed anybody. But he did baptize and preach repentance.

Jesus did not send them out to “establish churches” of their own in his name - if this sending out of the 72 actually did occur before Luke’s time. He established one universal Church on Peter and the Apostles which was born at Pentecost with the coming of the Paraclete after our Lord’s death and resurrection. This has to do with the sinlessness of Mary as an infallible teaching of the one universal Catholic Church which has been taught and governed by a central body of authority since apostolic time. In Luke 22; 31-32 Jesus is talking to Peter with reference to the original Twelve. The commission of Peter and the Apostles prefigure the Episcopacy and the Church hierarchy. We see this divine institution beginning to gel in Acts and in the Epistles. You are rewriting the scriptures to suit your personal beliefs. This is what I mean by soul-competency: a symptom of neo-gnostic American Fundamentalism. You are outside the Church and severed from the historic Christian faith, so don’t try to rewrite Church history and Sacred Tradition as well.

PAX

 

[Leeann]

Why are you so hostile To Mother Mary?
Do you really think you are honoring and
pleasing Jesus by doing so?

Do you not have any respect for Motherhood?

You base your idea that We worship Mary
based on the behavior of some catholics you
know.

I missed this post christmary4ever, just found it as I was going back trying to catch up on others that had posted.

1. I’m not hostile to Mary, it’s the way the Catholic church portrays her.
2. By doing what? Trying to find out why some of my friends may be following either false teachings that they’ve been taught - or -have misunderstood those teachings and have taken such a dive that they no longer mention Christ’s name and direct all their energies into praying to and through Mary because they believe she has “easier access” to Him and can somehow “appease” Him…? He knows my heart and mind and spirit and all of my motives and intentions - better than I do - or you do - and He knows the respect I have for His mother. And that’s the important thing.

(By the way, I have asked my friends how do they think *Mary *would feel, seeing all the honour and glory being accorded to her, instead of to her Lord and Saviour…her son…and I’m not talking about simple contemplation on her life and faith…I’m talking serious worship…to almost the exclusion of even The Father’s name being brought into it)

1. Yes. And by that I can identify with Mary in her humaness, her strength and courage and the faith she maintained when she was aware that her “child” was going to die before her and I draw great encouragement from those attributes because I can identify with them.
   I can’t identify to a woman who has been portrayed as being sinless at her own birth, that did not deliver her baby in a “normal” humanly fashion, that remained sinless all her life and then was assumed up to heaven, especially when no strong evidence has been put forward to substantiate all these claims.
2. Well…that is your opinion.

 

[Good_Fella]

(cont’d. for Good Fella)

(bear with me…I’ll tie it in to “Sinless Mary”)

And I have no problem with that whatsoever….(well the appointed “Vicar of Christ” title is a bit much) but it is obvious that Peter had done a complete turn around and was indeed the one most bold and lead by the Spirit to speak out and preach and take command of a situation and “strengthen” his brothers. (such as he did at the Jerusalem conference when things got out of hand…he stood up and spoke first, before Barnabas and Paul and James) and as is evident in the verses above, the church grew, but what is also evident in those verses, is that it does not resemble the Catholic church as we know it today or as even those that you’ve quoted below, knew it in their time.
Acts 2: V 38 - 47

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Not at all……Matthew refers to the sending out of the twelve disciples/Apostles –
**Luke 9 **also records this event…and Luke 10 records the above, where Jesus sent out the 70+ disciples.

“The Church of God which sojourns at Rome to the Church of God which sojourns at Corinth…If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us (The Bishop of Rome), let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.”
Clement of Rome, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1, 59:1 (c.A.D. 96)

*“Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately **attempted ***to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicated.”
Pope Victor 1 [reign A.D. 189-198] in Eusebius EH, 24:9 (**A.D. **192)

“After such things as these, moreover, they still dare – a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics – to set sail and bear letters from schismatics and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access.”
Cyprian, To Cornelius, Epistle 54/59:14 (A.D. 252)

“Joining to yourself, therefore, the sovereign of our See, and assuming our place with authority, you will execute this sentence with accurate rigour: that within ten days, counted from the day of your notice, he shall condemn his (Nestorious’) false teachings in a written confession.”
Pope Celestine, To Cyril of Alexandria, Epistle 11 (A.D. 430)
[cf. Mt. 16:18-19; Lk. 22:31-32]

How does this all tie in with “Sinless Mary” - perhaps some remnants from the heretic teachings that the very early churches were battling were and are still being battled within the church today.

Heresies do not spring from the Magisterium of the Church. They spring from individual clerics or theologians or both who are dealt with by the Magisterium. The Pope in union with the College of Bishops at Church Councils have had to excommunicate heretics with respect to Trinitarian and Christological doctrines. Heresies against the Church’s Marian doctrines were closely tied to the Christological ones. The quotes I provide somewhat illustrate this state of affairs. This is not the place to provide a score of other examples with some historical detail attached.

PAX :tiphat:

 

[justasking4]

There were some in the early church thought that Mary indeed did sin.

"[Jesus is] the only blameless and righteous Man…the only blameless and righteous Light sent by God…Now, we know that He did not go to the river because He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression…For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the law of Moses, ‘Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.’ And no one has accurately done all, nor will you [Trypho, an adherent of Judaism] venture to deny this; but some more and some less than others have observed the ordinances enjoined. But if those who are under this law appear to be under a curse for not having observed all the requirements, how much more shall all the nations appear to be under a curse who practise idolatry, who seduce youths, and commit other crimes? If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father’s will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves?" (Dialogue With Trypho, 17, 88, 95)

“Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2, 35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.” (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 493)

 

[guanophore]

The “bandwagon” was referring “to the post itself” - in the original posting # 374 SIA was responding to mannyfit - and then elvisman #375 responded to SIA’s - and then I “jumped on the bandwagon” #376 and responded to evlisman’s response to SIA.

I think the use of the word “parallel” caused the initial problem…

Not for me. For me, it was the incorrect use of the “QUOTE” function.
Leeann;4272290:

and that’s why I made up the list referring to the “similarities”,
the strong similarities that could be drawn to the comparisons being made.

I do believe that the Mary of Catholic theology is not the same of the scriptures.

Ok. That being the case, I will let the matter rest.

guanophore:

I hit the “submit” too soon and realized when I did I should have added some “document” proof in relation to that last statement I made with regards to Mary - will get to it and post.

No need. I am happy to concede the point. None of Catholic Theology comes from the Scriptures, so it does not concen me that what the Catholic Chruch knows about Mary does not seem evident in scripture by those who have not received the Teachings.

 

[guanophore]

There were some in the early church thought that Mary indeed did sin.

This is true. There were also those who thought that Jesus did not have a human nature, and that Catholics worshipped three Gods. There were some who believed that all Gentile Converts had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. The Magesterium has been battling heresies from the beginning!

"[Jesus is] the only blameless and righteous Man…the only blameless and righteous Light sent by God…Now, we know that He did not go to the river because He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression…For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the law of Moses, ‘Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.’ And no one has accurately done all, nor will you [Trypho, an adherent of Judaism] venture to deny this; but some more and some less than others have observed the ordinances enjoined. But if those who are under this law appear to be under a curse for not having observed all the requirements, how much more shall all the nations appear to be under a curse who practise idolatry, who seduce youths, and commit other crimes? If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father’s will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves?" (Dialogue With Trypho, 17, 88, 95)

“Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2, 35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.” (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 493)

Mary did need redemption, and that is why she said “God, My Savior”! However, being invaded with doubts is not a sin.

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella

I never said that John the Baptist physically healed anybody. But he did baptize and preach repentance.

original Good Fella:
He is simply sending out witnesses to himself and his ministry. Their task is to preach what Jesus has been teaching and to bear witness to the miracles he has performed. They may even have taken over John the Baptist’s role by calling people to repentance and baptizing them.

I’m sorry – I should have stated more clearly that – yes, they may and probably did take over John the Baptist’s role of calling people to repentance and baptizing them, however as the verse indicates…they were not just preaching and bearing witness to the miracles Jesus performed, but they were doing miracles themselves, as He instructed them to do.
Luke 10:V9
[9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Good Fella: Jesus did not send them out to “establish churches” of their own in his name - if this sending out of the 72 actually did occur before Luke’s time.

**Luke 10: **
[1] After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Who would be “the Lord” here then if not Jesus?
This indicates that it was in Jesus’ time and before Pentacost obviously.

And I didn’t mean of “their own” – as if they stayed there – and they were “their churches” - when Jesus arrived himself, there would be people who had heard these disciples’ message and experienced the miracles of healing they performed in His name – would not these people be considered part of the “very early church of Jesus Christ?” Wouldn’t you have liked to have been in that assembly of what I’m sure by then, there would have been at least a few believers.

Good Fella:
He established one universal Church on Peter and the Apostles which was born at Pentecost with the coming of the Paraclete after our Lord’s death and resurrection. This has to do with the sinlessness of Mary as an infallible teaching of the one universal Catholic Church which has been taught and governed by a central body of authority since apostolic time. In Luke 22; 31-32 Jesus is talking to Peter with reference to the original Twelve.

Yes He is, just before they went to the Mount of Olives (Gesthsemane) and when you get further down to Verse 35 – you will see where Jesus refers to the time He had sent them out previously also:
Luke V35: And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” (remember back to the previous postings I made with reference to how Jesus sent the 12 out also before the 70+)

Good Fella
The commission of Peter and the Apostles prefigure the Episcopacy and the Church hierarchy. We see this divine institution beginning to gel in Acts and in the Epistles

I really have no argument here at all about the institution beginning to gel in Acts/Epistles….well…except for the prefiguring of the Episcopacy and hierarchy of what you are referring to as the “Catholic church” as we know it today.

Good Fella
You are rewriting the scriptures to suit your personal beliefs. This is what I mean by soul-competency: a symptom of neo-gnostic American Fundamentalism. You are outside the Church and severed from the historic Christian faith, so don’t try to rewrite Church history and Sacred Tradition as well.

I am not rewriting anything.
The scriptures speak for themselves

 

[Leeann]

Heresies do not spring from the Magisterium of the Church. They spring from individual clerics or theologians or both who are dealt with by the Magisterium. The Pope in union with the College of Bishops at Church Councils have had to excommunicate heretics with respect to Trinitarian and Christological doctrines. Heresies against the Church’s Marian doctrines were closely tied to the Christological ones. The quotes I provide somewhat illustrate this state of affairs. This is not the place to provide a score of other examples with some historical detail attached.

I’ll try and look into some.

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella

I never said that John the Baptist physically healed anybody. But he did baptize and preach repentance.

I’m sorry – I should have stated more clearly that – yes, they may and probably did take over John the Baptist’s role of calling people to repentance and baptizing them, however as the verse indicates…they were not just preaching and bearing witness to the miracles Jesus performed, but they were doing miracles themselves, as He instructed them to do.
Luke 10:V9
[9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

**Luke 10: **
[1] After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Who would be “the Lord” here then if not Jesus?
This indicates that it was in Jesus’ time and before Pentacost obviously.

And I didn’t mean of “their own” – as if they stayed there – and they were “their churches” - when Jesus arrived himself, there would be people who had heard these disciples’ message and experienced the miracles of healing they performed in His name – would not these people be considered part of the “very early church of Jesus Christ?” Wouldn’t you have liked to have been in that assembly of what I’m sure by then, there would have been at least a few believers.

Yes He is, just before they went to the Mount of Olives (Gesthsemane) and when you get further down to Verse 35 – you will see where Jesus refers to the time He had sent them out previously also:
Luke V35: And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” (remember back to the previous postings I made with reference to how Jesus sent the 12 out also before the 70+)

I really have no argument here at all about the institution beginning to gel in Acts/Epistles….well…except for the prefiguring of the Episcopacy and hierarchy of what you are referring to as the “Catholic church” as we know it today.

I am not rewriting anything.
The scriptures speak for themselves

You misinterpret the scriptures. You speak for them.

The scriptures do not tell us that these 72 disciples were sent out to establish their own churches without a central authority to teach and govern them or to establish churches at all: only to bear witness. The cells of followers gained by the individual disciples (if in fact before the death and resurrection of Christ ) will eventually unite in one faith under one roof with the descent of the Holy Spirit. There was no church before Pentecost. Our Lord’s disciples were still worshipping in the temple as devout Jews after the resurrection and ascension for a short while. Matthew 16:18-19 makes it clear: Jesus establishes his one universal Catholic Church on Peter alone with the Apostles as the foundation. The Christian community eventually distinguished itself from the Judaic faith. Matthew’s community perceived this to be the case. Luke was also aware of this tradition. He records in Acts 15, besides the event of Pentecost, the Council of Jerusalem. Again it is Peter who assumes what is evidently a position of primacy by being the apostle to open the Council with an address to the assembly. The Bishop of Jerusalem, James the Just (also James the less son of Alphaeus, the brother - cousin - of our Lord), then ratifies what Peter has declared and passes judgment with respect to Peter’s words. Note that there are presybters present besides Peter and the Apostles. The apostles assume the teaching and governing office of the Church among the other general disciples.

The apostles are aware that their teachings and instructions are guided by the Holy Spirit. The Magisterium of the Church is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit in the official declarations of Church doctrines and dogmas, including the Immaculate Conception which is no less true than the dogma of the Holy Trinity.

“Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements.”
Acts 15, 27-28

The Council of Jerusalem is the church’s first Ecumenical Council.

PAX :tiphat:

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella;4274040:

Heresies do not spring from the Magisterium of the Church. They spring from individual clerics or theologians or both who are dealt with by the Magisterium. The Pope in union with the College of Bishops at Church Councils have had to excommunicate heretics with respect to Trinitarian and Christological doctrines. Heresies against the Church’s Marian doctrines were closely tied to the Christological ones. The quotes I provide somewhat illustrate this state of affairs. This is not the place to provide a score of other examples with some historical detail attached.

I’ll try and look into some.

You can try but I wish you luck. Just don’t confuse the Magisterium with individual bishops or patriarchates.

PAX

 

[Good_Fella]

Leeann, I have a very serious question for you:

How do you know that the “spirit that touches your individual life” is the one that enables you to know what is right?

Re: Reply 608

Leeann, I am not the Magisterium nor a church unto myself. To separate myself from the single community of faith by presuming the Holy Spirit has personally enlightened me in opposition to the teachings of the Church would be a neo-gnostic gesture on my part. I do know that the Holy Spirit has touched me with his grace by living a life according to the gospels and the teachings of the apostles in their epistles.

PAX

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella:

“Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”
John 6, 54-56

For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 11, 23-27

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 7:1 (c.A.D.110)

And coming to her he said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God.”
Luke 1, 28, 30
*
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God; immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”*
Origen, Homily, 1 (A.D. 244)

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”
Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388)

The doctrines of the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist and the sinlessness of Mary were consistently taught by the Church Fathers for eight centuries. Hyppolytus (ante 235) portrays Mary as a type of ark of the Old Covenant, but Proclus of Constantinople (ante 446) appears to be the first among them to explicitly perceive Mary as having been immaculately conceived:

“As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her without any stain.”

Sorry to disappoint you, but the Catholic Church is the early Church.

I’m not disappointed.
I’m just amazed how you can draw a conclusion from the Luke scripture (the Hail Mary one above…) and the quotes from Origen and Ambrose about Mary being immaculate and sin free.

In an earlier post of yours, (below) you posted a quote from Hyppolytus that portrayed Jesus as the ark and Mary as the tabernacle (as is evident from the conclusion you draw later) – now above Hyppolytus portrays Mary as a type of ark – as I asked then and received no reply – is this person a reliable source – or is it just poetic license? Or is now Mary considered to be both?

Originally posted by Good Fella #473 (to justasking)

The expression ‘kecharitomene’ signifies that Mary was constantly in a state of grace. She never once fell from God’s grace as Eve did and entered the state of sin. Mary was able to remain faithful to God because she was conceived without a sinful nature and empowered by God’s grace to choose not to sin. She was endowed with God’s sanctifying grace as soon as she was fashioned to be the Ark of the Word made flesh. You will never see the truth as long as you keep taking the written word literally by focussing on what lies explicitly on the surface of a page. Your faulty premise on which you approach the scriptures naturally leads you to arrive at wrong conclusions and espouse heretical beliefs.

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."
Hyppolytus, ‘Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me’ (ante A.D. 235)

I’m impressed by this fragment since it implies belief in Mary’s Assumption had already existed in the Church by this time. In his Apostolic Constitution Pope Pius lX cites Mary’s exemption from the universal law of sin and the corruption of death as a reason for her Assumption into heaven.

Hyppolytus is a Church Father who draws his perception from the Gospel of Luke. His understanding of Mary in this capacity reflects the traditional awareness of the Catholic Church. The typology between Mary and the ark of the Old Covenant originates from Luke who was inspired by the Holy Spirit when he penned his gospel. Hyppolytus goes beyond Luke by comparing both Jesus and Mary as the ark in their respective ways.

PAX

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi elvisman!

Not all Catholics believe this.

The Ark in Catholic tradition

Catholic tradition, led by the Fathers of the Church, has considered the Ark of the Covenant as one of the purest and richest symbols of the realities of the New Law.
It signifies, in the first place, the Incarnate Word of God.
**“Christ himself”, says St. Thomas Aquinas, “was signified by the Ark. For in the same manner as the Ark was made of setim wood, so also was the body of Christ composed of the most pure human substance. The Ark was entirely overlaid with gold, because Christ was filled with wisdom and charity, which gold symbolizes. In the Ark there was a golden vase: this represents Jesus’ most holy soul containing the fulness of sanctity and the godhead, figured by the manna. **There was also Aaron’s rod, to indicate the sacerdotal of Jesus Christ priest forever. Finally the stone tables of the Law were likewise contained in the Ark, to mean that Jesus Christ is the author of the Law”.
In like manner the Ark might be very well regarded as a mystical figure of the Blessed Virgin, called by the Church the “Ark of the Covenant” — Faederis Arca.

Tell me why you choose to believe more in the theory of Mary’s significance than in that of Jesus’ with regards to the Ark?

St.Thomas Aquinas makes no direct reference to Mary as the ark as he does with respect to Jesus, as far as I know, but he alludes to Mary as the ark when he speaks of her Assumption into heaven. The following passage is from the angelic doctor’s discourse on the ‘Hail Mary’ prayer:

*“Three curses come to men because of sin: the first, to woman, who will conceive with stain, bear with heaviness and give birth in sorrow (pain). But the Blessed Virgin was immuned to this, because she conceived without sin, bore in comfort and joyfully gave birth to the Saviour. Isaiah 35:2: < It shall bud forth and blossom, and shall rejoice with joy and praise. > The second curse is the man’s, who must earn his bread with the sweat of his brow. The Blessed Virgin was immune to this, because as the Apostle says in 1 Corinthians 7:32: < He who is unmarried (or a virgin) is concerned about the things of the Lord.” > The third is common to men and women, namely into dust they shall return. The Blessed Virgin was free of this, because she was assumed in the body into heaven. Psalm 131:8: < Arise, O Lord, into thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy majesty." > *
On the Angelic Salutation

It would appear that Aquinas shared the Catholic perception of Mary as a type of ark of the Old Covenant. :yup:

PAX

 

[christmary4ever]

View attachment 4255

It is right on the money justasking4, is afraid of the burden of
proof to be assign to him.

 

[justasking4]

It is right on the money justasking4, is afraid of the burden of
proof to be assign to him.

:crying: :egyptian:

 

[christmary4ever]

Does not your church want all its doctrines and practices to be grounded in the Scriptures? If so, why would they want this?

Because there is no conflict between the teachings of the Church
and the Holy Scripture. Protestants have tried in vain and sorrow
since 1517 to propagate the opposite position with no success.

They are reduced to thousands of churches whose only credit
is to break apart from each other.

 

[christmary4ever]

Good Fella;4274040:

Heresies do not spring from the Magisterium of the Church. They spring from individual clerics or theologians or both who are dealt with by the Magisterium. The Pope in union with the College of Bishops at Church Councils have had to excommunicate heretics with respect to Trinitarian and Christological doctrines. Heresies against the Church’s Marian doctrines were closely tied to the Christological ones. The quotes I provide somewhat illustrate this state of affairs. This is not the place to provide a score of other examples with some historical detail attached.

She is not going to do anything.  Her church declare us as unsaved.  They are righteous and have every authority to explain

the bible.

I’ll try and look into some.

 

[Good_Fella]

These things that Ligori writes in the Glories of Mary are considered true about her:

CHAPTER 6
**TURN, THEN, MOST GRACIOUS ADVOCATE
Mary Is an Advocate with Power
to Save All **

SO great is the authority that mothers possess over their sons, that even if they are monarchs, and have absolute dominion over every person in their kingdom, yet never can mothers become the subjects of their sons. It is true that Jesus now in Heaven sits at the right of the Father, enjoying that distinction even as Man because of the hypostatic union with the Person of the Divine Word.
He has supreme dominion over all and also over Mary; nevertheless, it can always be said that for a time at least, when He was living in this world, He was pleased to humble himself and be subject to Mary…Therefore we say that, even though Mary can no longer command her Son, since they are not on earth any more, still her prayers are always the prayers of a Mother and are therefore most powerful in obtaining whatever she asks.
At the command of Mary all obey, even God. 38
She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king; and since the son’s power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. 39

There is no other conclusion to draw that even though Catholics deny they deify her in reality one of its great teachers has done so.

Ontologically Mary is not omnipotent. But she is omnipotent relative to us in God’s plan of salvation. Jesus Christ has granted Mary the ultimate power of human intercession, among all the saints, in association with her Divine Son. By her prayers in heaven God does channel his saving graces to the Church. These graces do not originate from Mary, since she is not God, but they are dispensed through her from Christ. And this is fitting, since God has ordained it should be sufficient that Mary’s “Yes” contribute to the salvation of mankind. Our Blessed Mother brought the Saviour into the world, she brings His graces into the world whenever we run short. Jesus does not refuse his mother’s solicitations for the graces we need from him.

Then Bethsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. “There is one small favour I would ask of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.” "Ask it, my mother, “I will not refuse you.”
1 Kings 2, 19-20

When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.” His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2, 3-5

Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring (cf.Jn 19:26-27), those who keep God’s commandments (cf.Jn 2,5) and bear witness to Jesus.
Revelation 12, 17

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying His word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve* . As the human race was subjected to death through the act of a virgin, so it was * saved by a virgin ."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180)

"Under your mercy we take refuge, O Mother of God.* Do not reject our supplications in necessity, but deliver us from danger, O you alone pure and alone blessed."*
Sub Tuum Praesidium (c.A.D.250)

"Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God."
Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption, 291 (ante A.D. 560)

“Behold, all generations shall call me blessed.
The Almighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.”
Luke 1, 48-49

PAX