So, i hear...

[Prodigal_Son1]

You simply have a very limited and inaccurate view of Protestants. Study some and leave the generalizations behind. EVERY Protestant church has one man leading? Is this applicable to churches that have no clergy like the Quakers? No. Is this applicable to churches that have a plurality of elders like the Church of Christ or some non-denominational churches? No. Is this applicable To people that have congregational polity? No. You simply think that everything we believe is what you KNOW that we believe. That is the problem. You have made up your mind and **do not care **if you spread inaccurate information.
Its one thing to disagree with us, thats cool. But to spread things that are not true should not be acceptable.

Evidently, you have a problem with my view, or the Catholic view, and maybe it would be best if we discontinue a discussion if you can’t refrain from including accusations, insinuations or other condescending wording. To be perfectly honest, I don’t see how it helps validate your view.

I’ll admit I was ‘frazzled’ yesterday as I had just gotten off a 48 hour shift, that was busier than normal and may have had trouble articulating my thoughts correctly. If that was the case, I apologize, yet again.

Even with the ‘plurality of elders’ you name, there is a specific leader between them, or they combine themselves to be the leader of the Church there is the one voice to guide/influence the others. Some Protestant denonminations have setup rather elaborate hierarchies, with ‘presidents’, ‘bishops’, ‘elders’ or other titles used to grant specific authorities according to the ‘title’ each has, themselves becoming what they find objectionable about the Catholic Church. Any Church that can ‘excommunicate’ it’s members has an appointed leadership, whether it’s a single leader or a combined leadership including a whole congregation assuming a shared authority, to make those decisions, whether that leadership has a proper ordination as prescribed by the scriptures or it is ‘self appointed’, which is not found in scriptures.

I am open to correction if you wish to share with me the scriptures showing anyone that ordained themselves or anyone that was not ordained ordaining others.

By your response quoted above, you have presented yourself as someone who knows all denominations, besides your own. Please share with us the hierarchy of your Church?

 

[TEPO]

thats why having one man lead is a problem when hes wrong everyone is wrong.

But the Pope is not wrong…
A letter from Benedict to the world:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html

The pope gives “modern day” direction for the Church… He takes nothing away, while helping to explain which "works’ are most needed today!

Is’nt this exactly what Church leaders did 2000 years ago, which we can see in the bible? The Holy Father assumes his role well, in acting like an Apostle.

The Church really is the same as it was during Biblical times, as in the letters to Corinthians etc…

 

[BrianH]

Evidently, you have a problem with my view, or the Catholic view, and maybe it would be best if we discontinue a discussion if you can’t refrain from including accusations, insinuations or other condescending wording. To be perfectly honest, I don’t see how it helps validate your view.

I’ll admit I was ‘frazzled’ yesterday as I had just gotten off a 48 hour shift, that was busier than normal and may have had trouble articulating my thoughts correctly. If that was the case, I apologize, yet again.

Even with the ‘plurality of elders’ you name, there is a specific leader between them, or they combine themselves to be the leader of the Church there is the one voice to guide/influence the others. Some Protestant denonminations have setup rather elaborate hierarchies, with ‘presidents’, ‘bishops’, ‘elders’ or other titles used to grant specific authorities according to the ‘title’ each has, themselves becoming what they find objectionable about the Catholic Church. Any Church that can ‘excommunicate’ it’s members has an appointed leadership, whether it’s a single leader or a combined leadership including a whole congregation assuming a shared authority, to make those decisions, whether that leadership has a proper ordination as prescribed by the scriptures or it is ‘self appointed’, which is not found in scriptures.

I am open to correction if you wish to share with me the scriptures showing anyone that ordained themselves or anyone that was not ordained ordaining others.

By your response quoted above, you have presented yourself as someone who knows all denominations, besides your own. Please share with us the hierarchy of your Church?

See even yet again, you insinuate that everyone has a beef with the Catholic Church. You take a fairly good post and throw that stuff in it. Do not blame me when I clear up a false accusation about Protestants. As far as any group, look it up. It might help you to not generalize about people. In general though, a much more reasoned post.
As far as people ordaining themselves, it is not the standard way of doing things. We do know that Tertullian, prior to his leaving the church, made a reference to apostolic churches being such not merely because they were started by apostles but because they held to the same doctrine. I do believe that God can directly call someone in the manner that God would choose to. I see nothing to suggest otherwise. Christ said himself to the apostles to not forbid the other group from casting out demons etc.
In general though, I agree that it is the norm. Having said that, it is almost meaningless in and of itself. I live near a Liberal Catholic Church that the priest has a line stretching back. It has to be attached to historic doctrine as well. Which I know the Catholic Church agrees with as well before you break out a bunch of quotes.
I do know a lot about denominations. That is why I do not make sweeping generalizations. You ought to try it.

 

[TEPO]

The Catholic Church does not resemble the Church of the Bible – The Catholic Church IS the Church of the Bible!

 

[tweetymom]

The Catholic Church does not resemble the Church of the Bible – The Catholic Church IS the Church of the Bible!

Believers in Christ are the Church of the Bible, not an organigation.

 

[TEPO]

I do believe that God can directly call someone in the manner that God would choose to. I see nothing to suggest otherwise. Christ said himself to the apostles to not forbid the other group from casting out demons etc.
.

I dont think anyone here have forbidden the non-catholics from worshipping Jesus… But I think its quite clear that the catholic Church is the same as the Biblical Church. She sure looks and acts the same.

 

[wisdomseeker]

You would be annoyed if someone was answering your posts with answers that had NOTHING to do with your view. It forced me to address arguments I was not even making. Look back on it. I told you to read what is next to my name and you STILL made some off topic answer. That is your fault. Not mine. You derailed by either not knowing what we believe or worse; not caring.
Now back to what we were saying.

The catechism quote you just gave does not forbid private interpretation. It gives a framework for it but it does not forbid it. Are you sure you are correctly stating Catholic teaching?

if any Catholic enterpret Scriptures on their own, it better be in accord wiht the Church. Catholiks are not free to enterpret Scripture as they please. we Katholiks are under the authority of the Chair of St Peter, we have a Sheperd here on earth.

if you guys want to enterpret Scriptures at your ways, be my guess.

 

[TEPO]

Believers in Christ are the Church of the Bible, not an organigation.

Then why was there orginanization in the bible? Werent Church leaders telling other Church leaders how to act and how not to in the bible? Think about circumcision.

There has always been an authority -even in the bible.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Prodigal, So you are listening to interpretations of men? I’m just puzzled how you arrived at your beliefs. Someone gave you an interpretation or you read an interpretation and you didn’t check Scripture to confirm what someone else said? My point is don’t we either have to have blind faith in what someone else tells us or we have to search Scripture. If someone had told you, Prodigal, jump off a bridge, you were just going to do it? Who told you the Catholic faith was the one? How did you know to believe these men in the first place? Did you then check Scripture or did you just take their word for it? If you read something from the ECF did you just take their word for it or did you look at Scripture? How did you even arrive at believing the Bible is sacred Scripture and not say the Quran? Faith.

and i ask you, would you know without the CC? how would know if wasnt for the CC?

if wasnt for the Church Jesus found, would you have the Bible today?

 

[BrianH]

I dont think anyone here have forbidden the non-catholics from worshipping Jesus… But I think its quite clear that the catholic Church is the same as the Biblical Church. She sure looks and acts the same.

Clear? I think you know otherwise. If it were clear, we would not have the divisions we have. The much more accurate statement or answer is that the Bible provides a snapshot in time from a limited perspective about what occured and what was believed. As such, it cannot provide a clear answer because it was not intended to be the guide for all time and all inclusive in what the church should do.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Believers in Christ are the Church of the Bible, not an organigation.

False dichotomy on your part Tweetymom. Who says that an organization CANNOT be the Church of the BIble? Not the Bible, that’s for sure.

There is no such thing as a nebulous ‘invisible church of believers’. St. Paul was very specific about the Church being visible. A real ‘organization’.

Honestly, considering how you loathe and detest virtually every Catholic teaching ever given, I’m surprised you want to be considered Catholic.

Yep, it is JUST like somebody who eats steak 3 times a day insisting on being a card-carrying member of the Vegan Society.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

See even yet again, you insinuate that everyone has a beef with the Catholic Church. You take a fairly good post and throw that stuff in it. Do not blame me when I clear up a false accusation about Protestants. As far as any group, look it up. It might help you to not generalize about people. In general though, a much more reasoned post.
As far as people ordaining themselves, it is not the standard way of doing things. We do know that Tertullian, prior to his leaving the church, made a reference to apostolic churches being such not merely because they were started by apostles but because they held to the same doctrine. I do believe that God can directly call someone in the manner that God would choose to. I see nothing to suggest otherwise. Christ said himself to the apostles to not forbid the other group from casting out demons etc.
In general though, I agree that it is the norm. Having said that, it is almost meaningless in and of itself. I live near a Liberal Catholic Church that the priest has a line stretching back. It has to be attached to historic doctrine as well. Which I know the Catholic Church agrees with as well before you break out a bunch of quotes.
I do know a lot about denominations. That is why I do not make sweeping generalizations. You ought to try it.

We also know that Tertullian, as great a theologian as he was, is not a canonized saint. As you so aptly pointed out, ‘prior to his leaving the Church…’

God chose Paul and Paul was ordained through the imposition of hands, by men of the Church that Christ started.

I have said, and will repeat it as it seems to be ignored, I believe ALL Christians are a part of the body of Christ, which is His Church. How much a part is on each of us.

Protestantism was born from the Catholic Church in the 1500s. The parts of the faith they chose to believe and took with them came from the Catholic Church. Sadly, in my opinion, it does not include ALL parts of the faith. So, I don’t view Protestants as against us, or Him, until they start preaching against His Church. See, it works both ways. While we consider Protestants to be ‘separated brethren’, there are many Protestants that don’t consider us to be a part of the body of Christ, His Church, with some not even believing we are Christians. That puts us into a position of explaining our beliefs, as best as we humanly can, because of the appearances of being ‘against us’. Those who reject our believe in Him, reject what else? That’s not an insintuation, that is a fact evident by the many forums where ‘Christians’ gather to discuss each other’s theologies. So who in these instances is forbidding whom?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I read scriptures and, like everyone else, receive an interpretation. Then I weigh that interpretation against the Church interpretation, if the Church offers an interpretation on the particular passage. When the Church does not offer an interpretation, I do my best to read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us.

I was raised a Protestant, and attended many different denominations, all with differences in their teachings. Once I was married, I wanted to know which of the denominations was correct. Through research, reading scriptures, prayers and reflections, the Holy Spirit led me to the Catholic Church. I was not evangelized. Through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I know the Catholic Church is the Church of the Bible. When I was a Protestant, I could not understand all of the scriptures and had to rely on what a preacher told me they meant and still some explanations made no sense. As a Catholic, the Bible has come to life for me.

When compared to the early Church fathers, scriptures are more than validated. When scriptures are read in view of the writings of the early Church fathers, those writings are more than validated.

In most instances, one can understand a passage clearly. It’s when people attempt to fit scriptures to a theology that creative explanations are provided. When one fits their theology to scriptures, it’s Catholic.

Faith is based, or should be based, on more than a good feeling. God gave us brains, as well as hearts, to weigh and discern with.

good job Prodigal son.

to me it is a blasphemy to read Scriptures and because Scriptures talks about the HS, someone immediately assumes that they have the HS to enterpret Scriptures, just assumes because they read in Scriptures without making a distinction to whom it was being spokent to.

 

[BrianH]

We also know that Tertullian, as great a theologian as he was, is not a canonized saint. As you so aptly pointed out, ‘prior to his leaving the Church…’

God chose Paul and Paul was ordained through the imposition of hands, by men of the Church that Christ started.

I have said, and will repeat it as it seems to be ignored, I believe ALL Christians are a part of the body of Christ, which is His Church. How much a part is on each of us.

Protestantism was born from the Catholic Church in the 1500s. The parts of the faith they chose to believe and took with them came from the Catholic Church. Sadly, in my opinion, it does not include ALL parts of the faith. So, I don’t view Protestants as against us, or Him, until they start preaching against His Church. See, it works both ways. While we consider Protestants to be ‘separated brethren’, there are many Protestants that don’t consider us to be a part of the body of Christ, His Church, with some not even believing we are Christians. That puts us into a position of explaining our beliefs, as best as we humanly can, because of the appearances of being ‘against us’. Those who reject our believe in Him, reject what else? That’s not an insintuation, that is a fact evident by the many forums where ‘Christians’ gather to discuss each other’s theologies. So who in these instances is forbidding whom?

 

[TEPO]

Clear? I think you know otherwise. If it were clear, we would not have the divisions we have. .

Well whats clear to men like us matters not, but rather what is clear to God… Are you sure that the divisions were justified 500 years ago?

I say that the pride and lack of humbleness created the divide, and I’m not sure if God wanted it or if God simply allowed it… After all, God allows anyone to dissent, even the Jews back in the day.

The much more accurate statement or answer is that the Bible provides a snapshot in time from a limited perspective about what occured and what was believed. As such, it cannot provide a clear answer because it was not intended to be the guide for all time and all inclusive in what the church should do.

I’m gonna have to agree… Time cannot stand still so the Church must continue on while using the Bible as her foundation.

So the authority of the apostles have been passed down (from God) to Popes and Bishops.

 

[CMatt25]

and i ask you, would you know without the CC? how would know if wasnt for the CC?

if wasnt for the Church Jesus found, would you have the Bible today?

One answer I’ve been given by my Protestant brothers and sisters is God could have used the CC for that purpose at the time. But it doesn’t mean Christ did not need to reform Her. But some of our Protestant brothers or sisters here can perhaps answer you better.

 

[CMatt25]

Clear? I think you know otherwise. If it were clear, we would not have the divisions we have.

Although we must remember we are not divided on our belief in Christ. He unites us.

 

[TEPO]

Maybe God allowed the divide because too many people were being “forced” into heaven beyond thier own will…

Maybe the Church did “too good” of a job?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Believers in Christ are the Church of the Bible, not an organigation.

all believers under the authority of the Chair of St Peter. this is the Church.

i am interesting in know how many brides Jesus is to have. as far as i know the Bible says only One. not many. this Church represents His Kingdom with authority on earth. does your church have authority like the CC does?

it talks about One Church. this seems to be saying that there is only One Truth. if the CC is not the One teaching the Truth, who is? the baptists, methodists, assemblies of God, church of God, church of Christ? who? who sent them? did you read the Bible and then started your church? it must be all in One accord, if it is from God. read below.

“Yes, to me, the very least of all saints, there was given this grace, to announce among the Gentiles the good tidings of the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to enlighten all men as to what is the dispensation of the mystery which has been hidden from eternity in GOD, who created all things; in order that through the Church there be made known to the Principalities and the Powers in the Heavens the manifold wisdom of GOD…” Eph 3:8-10

i am not talking about half truths, if such thing even exists.

 

[spn82756]

Wisdomseeker…

As I’ve said before…the Church comprises of ALL Christians. Just read the CCC. When you pray at Mass…the Eucharistic Prayer refers to “all the people you have gathered to me”. Not just a particular part of the Church.