So what should a Catholic reaction to the Alabama abortion ban be?

[Lea101]

I don’t feel anything for the abortion law. It’s consistent with pro life beliefs.

I’m angry at celebrities and people on social media who are spreading lies (eg a child will go to jail for 99 years if she has an abortion).

I do wish politicians would expand their efforts though. Maybe look into the Foster care system, maternity leave etc. You don’t have to support socialism to care about the poor and the sick, and I hope the Republican party makes an effort in getting this message across.

As a political strategy, I don’t think this law is going to achieve much. Moderates would rather have abortions all throughout VS no abortions for any reason at all. I think this may push people to start voting for abortion access. Idk.

 

[Peeps]

Because of the “limited government” platform of the Republican Party (and of the U.S. Constitution, for that matter), Republicans are not eager to pass laws mandating maternity leaves, foster care, etc.

They prefer that the private sector provide these on their own, not because they are required by law to do so. I certainly agree with this–private sector charities do a better job of helping the poor than government handout programs. The private-sector caregivers are motivated by love and kindness, whereas the government caregiving agencies are motivated by law.

Republicans have historically preferred to allow businesses to come up with their own policies, and thus create competition between businesses that should, theoretically, create a more robust business climate with better working environments, salaries, and benefits for the employees. The theory behind this is that a company that offers poor wages and benefits will not get applicants or customers. It’s a good theory, but unfortunately, many people have no choice but to apply to work at a company if it is the only company within easy driving or walking distance from their home, and if it is the only company that they have the education or skills to work at.

Also, sadly, the hearts of many of us are evil, and when we become wealthier or obtain more power, we let it sublimate our Christian principles and become greedy, selfish, and cold-hearted towards our employees.

So I personally believe that laws ARE necessary to regulate businesses and protect workers from unscrupulous CEOs and harmful policies. A good example of this would be the many safety regulations that are now in place in workplaces.

I believe that we won’t be seeing a legally-mandated maternity leave get through Congress as long as abortion is legal. If a woman can have her “pregnancy” terminated, then it’s not a human being, and therefore, why should a company allow a woman to have a long leave time for something that legally isn’t even a human being? To admit that the woman was carrying a BABY, a human BABY, for nine months–that makes abortion murder! Ai yi yi! So it’s no wonder that our elected officials don’t want to touch that, and continue to allow companies to get by with a minimal maternity leave policy if they even provide a maternity leave.

WHEN we recognize that the “pregnancy” is scientifically and legally a HUMAN BEING deserving of the legal protection that any human being is entitled to, then companies will be mandated by law to provide maternity leave and other benefits to women and their children.

 

[tafan2]

As a political strategy, I don’t think this law is going to achieve much.

I disagree. Getting rid of abortion is either going to take a miracle or it’s going to require our society to change its view on the morality of the question. The latter will take time.
First of all, we need to understand that the legality of any matter does affect people’s views on it being right or wrong. Evidence of this can be seen with legalization of marijuana movement. The more legal it becomes, the more people tend to say it’s ok.
Of course we won’t be able to outlaw abortion in one fell swoop. But we have a “constitutional right” to abortion that prevents us from making even small steps in that direction, indeed our abortion laws are much more liberal than most European countries. But if Roe V Wade can be overturned, then the matter can move to states, and more and more states will gradually implement more restrictive laws. This will have the effect of changing people’s mind on the matter, slowly, but surely. Abortion rates will drop as this happens. Eventually it will be seen as the evil it is.
This law is designed for one purpose, to challenge RvW in the supreme Court. That is a good first step.

 

[bobperk]

Catholics don’t argue for outlawing every single thing deemed inherently evil by the Church.

I think most everyone would agree that something like child pornography should be outlawed. So therefore the murder of an unborn baby should also be outlawed.

If child pornography were legal right now, and a state passed a bill outlawing it, would you say, “well, should we really ban this? aren’t there exceptions? should the Church really be involved?”

 

[Cirdan_XII]

For example, this is what I saw on facebook, and part of the reason I thought about starting this thread:


I’m not saying rape is an exception of the evil of abortion. But I am saying that abortion is never something that is merely abstract.

This is part of a strategy by the other side to sow doubt and confusion.

But no matter how horredous the photo, two wrongs will never make a right.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

If child pornography were legal right now, and a state passed a bill outlawing it, would you say, “well, should we really ban this? aren’t there exceptions? should the Church really be involved?”

I live in Germany and right now, one of the largest parties, the Greens, has several members with shady backgrounds because in the past they wanted to legalize pedophilia and they only stopped talking about it when the party leadership saw it was bad publicity. This party is also very much pro abortion.

Sometimes it is interesting to see who people’s friends are.

 

[nightshade]

I am going to pray that your hardness of heart toward the innocent and unborn is softened. Lord have mercy.

 

[Sbee0]

RealisticCatholic:

For example, this is what I saw on facebook, and part of the reason I thought about starting this thread:


I’m not saying rape is an exception of the evil of abortion. But I am saying that abortion is never something that is merely abstract.

This is part of a strategy by the other side to sow doubt and confusion.

But no matter how horredous the photo, two wrongs will never make a right.

Exactly. This is pro abortion rights propaganda. Nothing more, nothing less. And a lot of people fall for it.

Abortion will not undo this horrific attack or any other rape. A victim stays a victim. The monster who did this is still a monster who did it regardless of abortion.

The abortion industry doesn’t give a crap about women. The more people that know that the better.

 

[Sbee0]

A sailor finds a stowaway on their ship.

By pro choice logic, the sailor is not morally obligated in any way to care for the stowaway. They have every right to throw him or her overboard in the name of choice. And in fact they should do it as a statement of sailors empowerment against those who deny sailors their rights.

Very bizarre.

 

[Sbee0]

RealisticCatholic:

For example, this is what I saw on facebook

It is an appeal to emotions.
Nothing more.
People do this when they have no real argument.

Abortion is still evil, no matter what the claims around it are.

Yep. Textbook fallacy from those who have no argument.

 

[Ana_v]

I think most everyone would agree that something like child pornography should be outlawed. So therefore the murder of an unborn baby should also be outlawed

That’s a non-sequitor. It doesn’t logically and automatically follow that because one type of evil is outlawed that another type should be as well.

I think you are correct to speculate that most people are opposed to child pornography and support for it to be outlawed. I certainly am. I also think abortion should be illegal.

But I’m not particularly impressed with the way many prolifers, including on CAF, argue their case.

Let’s look at what Socrates did. Whenever people gave an example instead of a definition he asked them for (e.g. the definition of justice, and someone gives the example of man being put to trial for murder), he would point out that they haven’t answered the question.

If child pornography and abortion are both the sorts of things that should be outlawed, which is the guiding principle that deems it so?

 

[Cirdan_XII]

If child pornography and abortion are both the sorts of things that should be outlawed, which is the guiding principle that deems it so?

Child pornography harms people. Children are obviously harmed in its creation, and people who view it for pleasure are also harmed by it on an ethical or emotional level.

But does the fact that it harms people alone justify banning it? Lots of things harm people. Alcohol, TV, laziness.

So the benchmark here is the extent to which it harms people, the gravity of the harm.

Killing people is worse than torturing them. Therefore abortion is graver than child pornography. So if it is desirable to ban child pornography, it should definitely be OK to ban murder.

 

[Sbee0]

RealisticCatholic:

Catholics don’t argue for outlawing every single thing deemed inherently evil by the Church.

I think most everyone would agree that something like child pornography should be outlawed. So therefore the murder of an unborn baby should also be outlawed.

If child pornography were legal right now, and a state passed a bill outlawing it, would you say, “well, should we really ban this? aren’t there exceptions? should the Church really be involved?”

It’s simpler than that. Science validates the fact that a human being is created at conception. I would say that saying an unborn child is not worthy of life is as egregious as age discrimination gets. Thus there is no moral or ethical justification for terminating that life. It should be both outlawed and the reasons why someone would want to do it be addressed.

If this were not the case then there would be no justification to ban it.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

A sailor finds a stowaway on their ship.

By pro choice logic, the sailor is not morally obligated in any way to care for the stowaway. They have every right to throw him or her overboard in the name of choice. And in fact they should do it as a statement of sailors empowerment against those who deny sailors their rights.

Very bizarre.

Only you could argue the stowaway knowingly hid on the ship, knowing that getting found out would probably be his or her death. Thus the stowaway bears a part of the responsibility.

A child did not ask to be conceived.

So the analogy would have to be extended by saying the stowaway did not chose to be a stowaway but was captured randomly and made to hide on the ship.

 

[Sbee0]

Sbee0:

A sailor finds a stowaway on their ship.

By pro choice logic, the sailor is not morally obligated in any way to care for the stowaway. They have every right to throw him or her overboard in the name of choice. And in fact they should do it as a statement of sailors empowerment against those who deny sailors their rights.

Very bizarre.

Only you could argue the stowaway knowingly hid on the ship, knowing that getting found out would probably be his or her death. Thus the stowaway bears a part of the responsibility.

A child did not ask to be conceived.

So the analogy would have to be extended by saying the stowaway did not chose to be a stowaway but was captured randomly and made to hide on the ship.

That is true although it’s very similar in that it could be a “surprise” to the sailor.

Could also use the same analogy with someone stranded at sea by a shipwreck and found by that sailor. That wasn’t their choice.

 

[Sbee0]

I am a pro-life Catholic, but I believe this new law in Alabama will set back to cause.
When think of state’s that lead our nation, Alabama would probably rank 50th. Only because there are not 51 states.

I think these laws will be struck down and I don’t see Roe being overturned - YET. But it will be someday. I think the tide on this issue is turning. Unlike 25 years ago when Casey happened, far more young people are pro life now.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

When think of state’s that lead our nation, Alabama would probably rank 50th. Only because there are not 51 states

I’m not sure what that means. Is there a league of superiority among the states? Should those at the supposed lower end of the league not be allowed to take leadership actions?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I think the tide on this issue is turning.

Evidence???

 

[Convert3]

I’m not sure what that means. Is there a league of superiority among the states? Should those at the supposed lower end of the league not be allowed to take leadership actions?

Prejudice against an entire state definitely reduces a person’s credibility. Not very charitable.

 

[EZweber]

This would include things like contraception and prostitution, since the moral prohibition of these apply to everyone and not just Catholics. Yet, Augustine and Aquinas regarded prostitution as an evil that should be legally tolerated.

I have a hard time disagreeing with Aquinas and Augustine (personal heroes), but they can be wrong. To my knowledge, Augustine thought that even within marriage,the marital act was a venial sin, and Aquinas was against the Immaculate Conception. Prostitution destroys families and causes people to be treated as objects. Its legalization would cause the rate of rape to skyrocket. With regard to contraception, I am not well informed about it, but I seem to remember reading that virtually all major Christian denominations we’re against its legalization well into the 1900s, and their reasons should be looked into.