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Sbee0
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See my post above.Sbee0:
Evidence???
So what should a Catholic reaction to the Alabama abortion ban be?
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Cirdan_XII
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We live in a world where not everybody is Catholic, and we cannot and should not force a Catholic lifestyle on anybody. Saying Catholics should not have sex outside of marriage is not the same as saying nobody should have sex outside marriage. Same with dietary rules, church attendance, etc etc.
Or let’s look at something even more trivial. Most Catholics have a crucifix in their home. Many carry a rosary around with them. Some on this forum might even suggest all Catholics should have a crucifix and a rosary. Whatever. But should we make a law saying everybody must own a rosary? Including all atheists, Mormons, Hindus etc. No. That would be ridiculous.
Now many pro-abortion people say abortion is the same. Catholics may respect a self-imposed ban on abortion. But just because Catholics don’t like abortions, that doesn’t mean nobody should have them.
But this comparison is nonsense, because having an abortion is not the same as having a rosary or going to mass. Having an abortion murders an innocent victim. The fact that the mother is or is not Catholic does not have any effect on the fact that it is murder.
If two non-catholics who are not married chose to engage in a sexual act. I can disaprove of that. I can chose not to support or facilitate it. But I don’t think I should be allowed to call for a law banning it. The people involved are harming nobody but themsleves. I am of course assuming that both sided are engaging in the act volunatrily and that nobody is being forced. If some money changes hands in the process, again, as a catholic i can disapprove of that and condemn it, but i shouldn’t be making laws against it. So in this case I would side with Augustine.
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edwest211
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The campaign of deception is moving in the direction it wants to move, using vague and pleasant sounding terms to hide the true meaning.
“reproductive health” A healthy woman can get pregnant. Abortion is not health care.
“progressive ideas” Abortion is not progress.
“reproductive health” A healthy woman can get pregnant. Abortion is not health care.
“progressive ideas” Abortion is not progress.
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EZweber
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I can guarantee that if prostitution is legalized, rape rates will skyrocket. Also, it would seriously wound spouses. That is a valid reason to ban prostitution.
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Cirdan_XII
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This way of using confusing terms to hide what things truly are is all very Orwellian.
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edwest211
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You can’t say that. Prostitution was legalized in a certain jurisdiction. That location later closed.
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edwest211
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It represents the false thinking and false information the abortion industry is built on.
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EZweber
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Please clarify. I don’t understand your point, except for the assertion that I can’t say that.
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edwest211
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Your post lacked information. Prostitution was legalized. That experiment failed.
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runningdude
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The Catholic Church does not comment on specific legislation, though individual bishops and priests may.
The church teaches that the state has a duty to protect unborn life. It also does not require politicians to ignore reality.
The reality is that the Alambama law will be immediately overturned, and the Supreme Court will likely refuse to review the case.
From a practical standpoint, the law risks hurting the Prolife cause by creating a precedent of a total ban being overturned. For that reason, I as an individual consider the law to be irresponsible.
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edwest211
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The law reflects reality and is very responsible. When abortion was being sold to the public in 1972, we were told it was the compassionate thing to do. Most Americans did not believe that.
In 1973, we were told abortion should be safe and rare. That turned out to not be true.
How was the Supreme Court convinced in 1973? Abortion advocates lied. Dr. Bernard Nathanson:
"I am personally responsible for 75,000 abortions. This legitimizes my credentials to speak to you with some authority on the issue. I was one of the founders of the National Association for the Repeal of the Abortion Laws in the U.S. in 1968. A truthful poll of opinion then would have found that most Americans were against permissive abortion. Yet within five years we had convinced the Supreme Court to issue the decision which legalized abortion throughout America in 1973 and produced virtual abortion on demand up to birth.
“How did we do this? It is important to understand the tactics involved because these tactics have been used throughout the western world with one permutation or another, in order to change abortion law.”
Source: An Ex-Abortionist speaks
In 1973, we were told abortion should be safe and rare. That turned out to not be true.
How was the Supreme Court convinced in 1973? Abortion advocates lied. Dr. Bernard Nathanson:
"I am personally responsible for 75,000 abortions. This legitimizes my credentials to speak to you with some authority on the issue. I was one of the founders of the National Association for the Repeal of the Abortion Laws in the U.S. in 1968. A truthful poll of opinion then would have found that most Americans were against permissive abortion. Yet within five years we had convinced the Supreme Court to issue the decision which legalized abortion throughout America in 1973 and produced virtual abortion on demand up to birth.
“How did we do this? It is important to understand the tactics involved because these tactics have been used throughout the western world with one permutation or another, in order to change abortion law.”
Source: An Ex-Abortionist speaks
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Shasta4737
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Will those who are pro life protest Republican plans to end health insurance, cut food stamps, educational help and welfare programs for the poor? What will happen when we have masses of new poor mothers and children? Also, were any of you raised with abusive or neglectful parents? Here in my small city there are numerous cases where children are beaten, raped and starved to death. Children are so vulnerable and at the mercy of their parents. I’m pro life but only if we have more --not less --government and church welfare help. Are you willing to help shoulder the enormous financial and other burdens of so many more vulnerable children and mothers along with the ones suffering now that need help and can’t get it?
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edwest211
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Being inflammatory does not help.
How can people with such a Keen eye for the suffering of others turn a blind eye to the slaughter of our most innocent?
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ProdglArchitect
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Bit of information.
We are not ending Health insurance, we’re just ending government involvement in health insurance. I don’t think a single rational person can claim that Obamacare has been good for the health care industry. Yes, some people were able to get insurance who weren’t covered before, but the costs to everyone else have been astronomical, to the extent of forcing people who used to have decent coverage to drop their plans in favor of worse ones, or to drop their plans entirely.
I don’t know anything about the food stamp question, but as for education help, we’re not cutting it. We’re trying to seek ways to help more people escape the busted public school system. We’re also trying to get the government out of the higher education business. We’ve created a society where everyone thinks they need to go to college, and that just isn’t practice. Most people graduating today are getting degrees not worth the paper they’re printed on. This has created a massive debt problem where people owes tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars to the government to pay for an education that has allowed them to get a minimum wage job doing something completely unrelated to their degree. The government needs to stop loaning out money for education, and our society needs to move away from this bad mentality that everyone should go to college.
As for welfare programs, we’re not opposed to them, we just think they need to be temporary efforts. My wife has been a teacher in welfare-dominate areas, and so many of her students talk about how they just plan to live off welfare, so why bother in school?
Welfare isw great for people who need it. We should just make sure it doesn’t become a lifestyle.
NONE of this, however, compares even slightly to the vast problem of abortion. You can’t compare any of these, regardless of your views on them, to the systematic slaughter of millions of unborn children every year.
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Sbee0
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Sounds like you don’t have a good understanding of what conservatism is, nor what us Catholics believe on what it means to be pro life for that matter. Not all of us are Republicans. This is the wrong forum for this kind of lecture.
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edwest211
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I have no political party affiliation.
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Patagonia1
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As Catholics and pro-lifers, abortion should absolutely be legally banned for all cases including rape and incest. The Alabama ban is good and we should all be rejoicing as children of God.
That said, a legal ban may limit abortion rates, but women will continue to seek them out and men will continue to encourage the practice. The Alabama ban will not simply stop abortions overnight. Children have been aborted since the beginning of human existence. This is a human societal problem and this issue is much larger than debating whether or not it should be “legal” or “illegal”.
Parents cannot simply rely on the educational system to teach our children healthy sexual behavior, they need to have those difficult conversations with their children at home and practice what they preach. Sexual acts are meant for marriage and marriage only.
Of course, people will make immoral sexual mistakes. Most of us on this forum acknowledge this is sinful (myself included), but in any case women are hungry for support and empowerment to carry their babies to full term by their families, their friends, by men, by our government, and by society in general. Charitable non-judgement cannot be understated. Too often women are shamed as sluts and virtually shunned for pregnancies. That only exacerbates the problem – many women seek out abortions out of shame from their families, churches, and society.
Adoption needs to be encouraged for women who feel they cannot raise a baby. But it needs go even further than that! Those who preach adoption need to seriously prayerfully consider adopting children themselves! And if they cannot adopt for one reason or another (and that is totally okay), at least prayerfully consider donating time and money to adoption agencies (ideally Catholic agencies). Sometimes women justify abortion because they feel that the child will live a horrible life on the fringes in a foster home rather than raised by loving parents (twisted logic of course).
Furthermore, men need to be raised to take responsibility for their actions. No longer are men ingrained with the ideals of protecting women and children, but rather only themselves. This is, in part, an unfortunate result of the feminist movement of the last several decades. It is the duty of a man to be a father – financially, socially, spiritually. Strong male role-models build strong families – the very backbone of our society.
TLDR: The Alabama Ban is a good first step toward purging the sin of abortion from our world. But abortion is so much more than a legal debate. Regardless of legal status, abortion will continue on and much more needs to be done from a societal standpoint. This starts with teaching the virtues of abstinence to children and adoption needs to not just be encouraged but practiced on levels never seen. Most importantly women need to be empowered to choose life regardless of their circumstances, whether they choose to raise the child or have them adopted. Men need to once again be raised with the ideals of protecting women and children and understand that children need strong male role-models to help break this cycle of evil.
That said, a legal ban may limit abortion rates, but women will continue to seek them out and men will continue to encourage the practice. The Alabama ban will not simply stop abortions overnight. Children have been aborted since the beginning of human existence. This is a human societal problem and this issue is much larger than debating whether or not it should be “legal” or “illegal”.
Parents cannot simply rely on the educational system to teach our children healthy sexual behavior, they need to have those difficult conversations with their children at home and practice what they preach. Sexual acts are meant for marriage and marriage only.
Of course, people will make immoral sexual mistakes. Most of us on this forum acknowledge this is sinful (myself included), but in any case women are hungry for support and empowerment to carry their babies to full term by their families, their friends, by men, by our government, and by society in general. Charitable non-judgement cannot be understated. Too often women are shamed as sluts and virtually shunned for pregnancies. That only exacerbates the problem – many women seek out abortions out of shame from their families, churches, and society.
Adoption needs to be encouraged for women who feel they cannot raise a baby. But it needs go even further than that! Those who preach adoption need to seriously prayerfully consider adopting children themselves! And if they cannot adopt for one reason or another (and that is totally okay), at least prayerfully consider donating time and money to adoption agencies (ideally Catholic agencies). Sometimes women justify abortion because they feel that the child will live a horrible life on the fringes in a foster home rather than raised by loving parents (twisted logic of course).
Furthermore, men need to be raised to take responsibility for their actions. No longer are men ingrained with the ideals of protecting women and children, but rather only themselves. This is, in part, an unfortunate result of the feminist movement of the last several decades. It is the duty of a man to be a father – financially, socially, spiritually. Strong male role-models build strong families – the very backbone of our society.
TLDR: The Alabama Ban is a good first step toward purging the sin of abortion from our world. But abortion is so much more than a legal debate. Regardless of legal status, abortion will continue on and much more needs to be done from a societal standpoint. This starts with teaching the virtues of abstinence to children and adoption needs to not just be encouraged but practiced on levels never seen. Most importantly women need to be empowered to choose life regardless of their circumstances, whether they choose to raise the child or have them adopted. Men need to once again be raised with the ideals of protecting women and children and understand that children need strong male role-models to help break this cycle of evil.
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Johann_du_Toit
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I oppose abortion as per Catholic teaching. I think Roe v Wade is bad law, poorly decided (like Dredd Scott and Citizens United) and should be overturned.
But as an attorney, I am worried that the Alabama law is overreach and will likely not survive a Supreme Court challenge. Missouri and Ohio adopted abortion restrictions which are more likely to survive court challenges.
Also, it is likely the left will use it as a rallying call for the 2020 election.
But as an attorney, I am worried that the Alabama law is overreach and will likely not survive a Supreme Court challenge. Missouri and Ohio adopted abortion restrictions which are more likely to survive court challenges.
Also, it is likely the left will use it as a rallying call for the 2020 election.
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Pattylt
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https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/alabama
Just so you know where Alabama’s rates in the US.
The problem with the new Alabama law is that it is hoped to eventually wind up in the Supreme Court. The problem is, both lower courts would have to come to opposing decisions on the legality of it. If both lower courts declare it unconstitutional, then there is nothing for the Supreme Court to decide. The law, as written, IS unconstitutional so it is just a hopeless gesture that will die in the courts and most likely set back the efforts for years.
It was not a smart law and will fail at its aims. The Alabama legislature claiming the religious bias that motivated it won’t help the case either. There were several dumb moves made here. However, the predominately GOP Alabama legislature can claim a victory to their base which is what I think it was aiming for more than anything else.
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