'Sola Caritas' Trumps 'Sola fide'

[mcq72]

Its not over until the just Judge renders His verdict.

Amen.The perseverance of the saints.

But do they persevere precisely because they are saints, all glory to God? Or are they saints because they persevered, quid pro quo?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

But do they persevere precisely because they are saints, all glory to God? Or are they saints because they persevered, quid pro quo?

They are saints because they said yes and persevered. Christ said he who perseveres to the end will be saved. He didn’t say since you are saved, persevere. Matthew 24

Oh the entrapment of “it"s all up to me”, as if I began the good work to begin with

No one said, it’s all up to us. That would go against Church teaching which comes from Scripture and Tradition, but we do have free will to say yes or no every day.

if it were up to me i would spiritually deny Him today.

He does not force His will on us, so yes there is definitely a part we play in our salvation.

 

[fhansen]

Amen.The perseverance of the saints.

But do they persevere precisely because they are saints, all glory to God? Or are they saints because they persevered, quid pro quo?

Both/and. Again, it’s alright to be something ; in fact that’s God’s will, a will that He wants us to agree with and that’s where our cooperation comes into play. The first step is in recognizing that we are nothing , apart from Him. We cannot possibly be saved without Him, and yet we can refuse to be saved. Either way our becoming something is an integral part of our salvation. Even as all is owed to Him.

But He created us; humans are innately good, and made in His image-and worthy of dignity and respect even if we often fail to live up to it. He loves us lavishly, enormously, and has an incredible end or purpose in mind for all humans. He just knows we need Him in order to achieve that potential. And it’s by our response to grace, and by our choices, that we shape our lives, orienting towards good or evil, life or death, God or no God. We’re not just a bunch of morally irresponsible or passive automatons; we’re here to choose; we’re here to experiment with and ultimately reject Adam’s choice, born out by how we live our lives. Fortunately we sort of know this truth intuitively and most Protestants live this way regardless of their theological backgrounds as I see it.

We’re not just a bunch of worthless sinful wretches from which God almost reluctantly decides to save some and send the rest to hell as we all deserve. Rather He’s been on our side from day one, since Eden; that’s what the cross finally and definitively proves; enmity came from man, not Him. “They hated Me without reason”. And all of this is part of a grand plan; we have no idea how much He has in store for those who love Him. It’s just that darn obligation thing, even though it’s a truly beautiful one:
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

Love is how we become something. And love is a choice even if grace is necessary for us to acquire it in the quantity and quality God would have. God wants our participation, our ownership, for our own good. Saints don’t become saints without this participation because this ownership of their justice is precisely the ingredient that distinguishes them, that makes them saints even if all sainthood is still impossible without Him.

 

[mcq72]

He does not force His will on us, so yes there is definitely a part we play in our salvation.

I do not rule out our will…not sure we have to place adjective of “free” by definition of will…is that kind of like saying for instance an unfree slave, like do you need the " unfree"?

As i have said before, the sign at the pearly gates entrance reads, “You have chosen well” (Joshua 24).

You pass thru and the other side of the sign reads, “As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world”. (Eph 1 :4).

By myself i would let go of Him. He will never let go of me.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

the sign at the pearly gates entrance reads, “You have chosen well” (Joshua 24).

Agree, yes we must choose.

By myself i would let go of Him. He will never let go of me.

Yes that is true. He doesnt let go, we do.

Every day we must choose.

 

[mcq72]

Every day we must choose.

Lol, and every day He never let’s go…a slave I am to His goodness.

My assurance is strong enough not to mind being called a fence rider.

PS…noticed you did not comment, agree on predestination verse. (Eph 1:4)…it is a CC teaching.

 

[mcq72]

But He created us; humans are innately good, and made in His image-

Not so accurate of a statement after Gen 2:16. …an updated version is found in Romans 3:12…" There is not one who does good, not one"

Bible does not say, " Christ died for us while we were innately good, in His image."

We should not soft pedal the nature and consequences of sin, undermining the profundity of Calvary.

Need to see the problem before you can be ready for solution: Christ at Calvary, image and goodness restorer, reconciler.(Theme of entire bible from Gen3:14 onward).

 

[fhansen]

Not so accurate of a statement after Gen 2:16. …an updated version is found in Romans 3:12…" There is not one who does good, not one"

Bible does not say, " Christ died for us while we were innately good, in His image."

We should not soft pedal the nature and consequences of sin, undermining the profundity of Calvary.

Need to see the problem before you can be ready for solution: Christ at Calvary, image and goodness restorer, reconciler.(Theme of entire bible from Gen3:14 onward).

It’s not about soft-pedaling anything; it’s about knowing the truth about man and God and His will for us to the extent that this has been revealed. Everything God creates is innately good, and man didn’t lose that goodness; he’s still good according to his created nature even in the fallen state. There is no new “sin nature”. Man is simply lacking something vital, which puts him at a great disadvantage when it comes to overcoming sin and realizing any kind of real happiness and peace within himself and with God and with the rest of creation. He is spiritually dead because he’s spiritually separated from his Creator, Whom man was made for communion with.

Adam preferred himself to God as one teaching I’m familiar with puts it. We still do the same as we remain in our pride. But Jesus came to reveal just how much we are in the dark, especially when we think we can see; Jesus came to reveal the true God so that we may believe in something much better as we become jaded by the world’s darkness and sin and our own self-righteousness as opposed to the real righteousness that only He possesses-and can give.

Anyway, man is not bad; he does bad. Jesus didn’t die for us while we were innately bad; Jesus died for us while were yet sinners. Man sins because he doesn’t comply with his own created nature. Otherwise God would be directly responsible for man’s sins. Another way to say this is that man breaks the “natural law”, and therefore the revealed law, when he sins. Augustine said this, “God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart”.

Fallen man’s most basic state of injustice can be defined as his separation from God. This is a scandal, like an anomaly in nature. Once man is reconciled with God and enters communion with Him, man exists in a proper state of justice, which he was made for. He is justified. And within that justified state and relationship is the availability of grace, of a life of grace that can overcome sin and fulfill the law to the extent that we really want it, that we truly hunger and thirst for righteousness.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

My assurance is strong enough not to mind being called a fence rider

Ok

…noticed you did not comment, agree on predestination verse. (Eph 1:4)…it is a CC teaching.

As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world”. (Ep

Missed it.
Yes the Church teaches predestination but not the Calvinist view.

We also have free will to accept His love or reject it. We have free will to say yes or no. That is just how it is.

 

[Johan]

We were created in the image and likeness of God and God loved us but what we were, was sinners.

Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God, but that image has been lost due to sin.

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. (1 John 3:10)

I do not imagine that we can simultaneously be the image and the likeness of God and children of the devil. In fact, the Bible says that those who believe are being “conformed to the image of His Son” (Rom. 8:29; cf. 1 Cor. 15:49). If we already would possess this image, we would not have to be conformed to it.

 

[Johan]

Of course He loves us first. But the response is that we love back-or we’re not saved.

The “response” needed for salvation is faith. That is why it is said that we have been saved through faith, but without works (Eph. 2:8–9). But those who have been born of God will love one another. That is the fruit of salvation.

We can’t even know we’re saved to begin with until He renders that judgement at the end of the day.

Can’t we?

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

God wants you to be something. He makes you salvageable, worthy.

He does not only make me “salvageable”, mind you. He has saved me.

You simply must want it.

Says the Bible nowhere. It is the will and eternal decree of God that matters.

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Rom. 9:16)

Nope. As Matt 25 makes clear, the fruit is a criteria. No Christ, no human fruit, and yet we can still refuse to produce; we aren’t forced to work out our salvation with He who works in us.

A good tree will produce good fruit, and vice versa. A person born of God will love his/her spiritual siblings. It is in our spiritual DNA to do so. And God does not have to “force” us to do so against our will, because it is He “who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose” (Phil. 2:13). Just like good and bad trees can be separated by their fruits, so can the sheep and the goats be separated by their works. But good works do not make us sheep—it is because we are His sheep that we love one another.

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.” (John 10:25–26)

And yet believers are constantly exhorted in the bible to make sure they continue to live by the Spirit, to remain faithful, remain in Christ, do good works, be holy, be vigilant, persevere, work out their salvation, make their calling and election sure, invest their talents lest they fail to inherit eternal life.

Just like the universe was created by the command of God, and Lazarus was raised by the command of Christ, so will His elect come to faith, bear the fruits of salvation, and persevere in faith by the command of God.

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)

 

[MagdalenaRita]

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. (1 John 3:10)

Yes I agree.

 

[mcq72]

We can’t even know we’re saved to begin with until He renders that judgement at the end of the day

And to add to Johans post:

“And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,.” Eph 2:6

“For our citizenship is in heaven,” Php 3:20

Both present tense, for a reason.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Justification comes through Mary’s love alone as she is the perfect expression of God’s love for mankind.

Do not use The Blessed Virgin Mary as

It was a caricature o

That is very offensive

thank you

 

[Johan]

Yes I agree.

Good that we can agree on something.

 

[fhansen]

Can’t we?

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

And to add to Johans post:

“And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,.” Eph 2:6

“For our citizenship is in heaven,” Php 3:20

Both present tense, for a reason.

Nice bits of encouragement but I doubt that even the authors believed that every last ear that would hear those words and apply them to themselves down through the centuries necessarily ended up saved.

"God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger." Rom 2:6-8

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:22

"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:22

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

 

[fhansen]

The “response” needed for salvation is faith . That is why it is said that we have been saved through faith, but without works (Eph. 2:8–9). But those who have been born of God will love one another. That is the fruit of salvation.

Nope, we’re still obligated to be righteous. But now, when the time became ripe in human history, we received the true means. God’s purpose has never been to suddenly ignore injustice or the requirement for righteousness in us, but always to finally achieve it-so that sin will no longer separate us from Him. It’s not that He stopped caring if we fulfilled the law, or did away with its requirements as if the law was bad or wrong (Paul tells us that the law is holy, spiritual, and good); rather He now gives us the means to fulfill what was meant to be fulfilled in us all along.
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4
Jesus came to reconcile and restore communion between man and God so that we may receive and walk after the Spirit-and so fulfill the law. This is justice genuinely restored to His beloved creation-justice/righteousness realized outwardly because of justice realized inwardly first.

He does not only make me “salvageable”, mind you. He has saved me.

He saves me by making me worthy, salvageable

Says the Bible nowhere. It is the will and eternal decree of God that matters.

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Rom. 9:16)

Without God’s mercy we cannot be saved. But we can still refuse God’s mercy, or dismiss it later at any time.

.

 

[fhansen]

A good tree will produce good fruit, and vice versa. A person born of God will love his/her spiritual siblings. It is in our spiritual DNA to do so. And God does not have to “force” us to do so against our will, because it is He “who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose” (Phil. 2:13). Just like good and bad trees can be separated by their fruits, so can the sheep and the goats be separated by their works. But good works do not make us sheep—it is because we are His sheep that we love one another.

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep .” (John 10:25–26)

Just like the universe was created by the command of God, and Lazarus was raised by the command of Christ, so will His elect come to faith, bear the fruits of salvation, and persevere in faith by the command of God.

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)

Nice thoughts but no way is perseverance guaranteed, which is exactly why believers are both uplifted and encouraged and constantly warned and exhorted in Scripture. Not much reason for admonishing if salvation is already a done deal. The true gospel understands this to be a process, this working out of our salvation. Of course it depends on what we do- with what we’re given.

 

[Johan]

Nope, we’re still obligated to be righteous.

If you mean “righteous” as in sinless, that will not happen in this life. We are not obligated to be something that we will never be in this life. If you mean “righteous” as in having the righteousness of God imputed to us, then that is the status of every believer in Christ.

God’s purpose has never been to suddenly ignore injustice or the requirement for righteousness in us, but always to finally achieve it-so that sin will no longer separate us from Him.

That is precisely why God does not only impute His righteousness to us but also had to impute our sin to Christ. This is called the blessed exchange in Evangelical theology. The cross of Christ is a very concrete testimony to the fact that God does not ignore injustice.

God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Rom. 3:25–26)

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

Paul is not speaking of a potential future, but of the present reality in Christ. The righteousness that the Law requires is fulfilled in those who are in Christ, because He is our righteousness.

Jesus came to reconcile and restore communion between man and God so that we may receive and walk after the Spirit-and so fulfill the law.

We do not serve God through the Law at all. We have died to the Law to live for God, remember? We have been released from the Law in order to serve God in the Spirit. But do not for a minute believe that you are inherently righteous. We are all sinners walking in His grace.

He saves me by making me worthy, salvageable

He saved me by bringing my sins to the cross and clothing me in His righteousness.

Nice thoughts but no way is perseverance guaranteed, which is exactly why believers are both uplifted and encouraged and constantly warned and exhorted in Scripture.

Is God not capable of preserving His elect? I actually think He is. Jesus will not lose anyone given to Him by His Father (John 6:39).

He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 1:8)

That is not just a pious hope, but a divine promise.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

If you mean “righteous” as in sinless, that will not happen in this life. We are not obligated to be something that we will never be in this life. If you mean “righteous” as in having the righteousness of God imputed to us, then that is the status of every believer in Christ.

True we will not be sinless in this life but with the grace of God we work toward that righteousness. Jesus did tell us to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect.
We are not merely just called righteous but infused with God’s righteousness at baptism and we walk in that righteousness. We don’t put it on a shelf and it is not just a covering or a labeling.

The righteousness that the Law requires is fulfilled in those who are in Christ, because He is our righteousness.

This is true because the law Paul was talking about was the Mosaic law and that law was only a tutor until Christ came and now we take up our crosses and follow Christ.

We do not serve God through the Law at all. We have died to the Law to live for God, remember? We have been released from the Law in order to serve God in the Spirit. But do not for a minute believe that you are inherently righteous. We are all sinners walking in His grace.

Yes, to serve God and again talking about the Mosaic law. We follow Christ’s commands, though, the law of love.

Is God not capable of preserving His elect?

That is not just a pious hope, but a divine promise.

OSAS is completely not Biblical and neither is the theory of election.