Sola scriptura and corrections?

[JonNC]

Not sure what you mean? The RCC believes this…

What I mean is no communion I am aware of applies this verse to the Christ. There are numerous examples of this, including the “stones” one I previously mentioned. Further, we know that, unlike all of us, Christ was born without sin. That doesn’t make Him less human. He did not gave a human biological father. That doesn’t make Him less human.

Christ and Mary could have thrown a stone, but wouldn’t(2nd commandment he gave us). He was speaking to the group who was going to stone the woman, not a group of disciples. Why would ANY of his followers do that under his ministry and instruction?

While I’m not bound to the teaching that Mary was sinless throughout her life, I also have no issue with it. Those two. Beyond them, “for all have sinned…”

 

[brianjmc1]

brianjmc1:

What I mean is no communion I am aware of applies this verse to the Christ. There are numerous examples of this, including the “stones” one I previously mentioned. Further, we know that, unlike all of us, Christ was born without sin. That doesn’t make Him less human. He did not gave a human biological father. That doesn’t make Him less human.

RCC believes Mary was born without sin and through her life was sinless, too. Along with Orthodox, Luther, etc…

Christ and Mary could have thrown a stone, but wouldn’t(2nd commandment he gave us). He was speaking to the group who was going to stone the woman, not a group of disciples. Why would ANY of his followers do that under his ministry and instruction?

While I’m not bound to the teaching that Mary was sinless throughout her life, I also have no issue with it. Those two. Beyond them, “for all have sinned…”

Two types of sin, Original and personal. Four humans were born without original sin, Christ, Mary, Adam, Woman(Named Eve after the fall)… So i would say, every-other human was born with sin.

Thanks for your posts!!!
Brian

 

[steve-b]

I would argue that …
[snip for space]

In terms of the hierarchy of love,

(some paraphrasing)

1. Love God above EVERYTHING
2. Love neighbor as one’s self
   From: HERE

So

What if

one chooses NOT to be inside the only Church Our Lord established personally, who specifically wanted not just a squishy understanding of unity but perfect unity in His Church HERE and instead one preferred division from His Church, to follow some division of THEIR choice, is there a consequence for that?

Paul says YES

3 examples he uses

Titus 3:10-11 “As for a man who is factious αἱρετικὸν , after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned αὐτοκατάκριτος .”

And

RE: Division / dissension διχοστασίαι, That same Greek word is used in both the following selections

Rm 16:17-21
17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions διχοστασίαι and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites,[b] and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

AND

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension διχοστασίαι, party spirit, 21 envy,[b] drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

BTW

That’s where the phrase "Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation" comes from.

 

[TULIPed]

Are there not consequences for being greedy? For being selfish?

 

[steve-b]

Are there not consequences for being greedy? For being selfish?

Sure. Absolutely

I have to ask,

How does that pertain to what I posted?

 

[TULIPed]

Is dissension worse in Paul’s list than any of the other sins he mentions (particularly “party spirit” - that one scares me - what translation is this?)?

 

[steve-b]

Is dissension worse in Paul’s list than any of the other sins he mentions?

Every sin in that list Paul gives, has the same conclusion…right? If one dies in that sin, As Paul says, they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven… right?.

I only mention dissension διχοστασίαι, from that list, to show THAT, it has horrible consequences if one dies in that sin.

Let’s face it,

Scripture doesn’t make excuses for it. That’s because Paul says that sin comes from Satan.

AND

Given the massive division that has taken place, FROM, Our Lord’s Church, I think too many people just don’t take THAT warning seriously.

 

[TULIPed]

Given the massive division that has taken place, FROM, Our Lord’s Church, I think too many people just don’t take THAT warning seriously.

So dissension is no different than jealousy or having a “party spirit” (sorry - I find that translation humorous) or envy or anger when somebody cuts me off in traffic. Fair enough.

I only mention dissension διχοστασίαι, from that list, to show THAT, it has horrible consequences if one dies in that sin.

And so, the only way to not die in that sin - any sin - but especially dissension - is to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Do I have that correct?

 

[JonNC]

RCC believes Mary was born without sin and through her life was sinless, too. Along with Orthodox, Luther, etc…

I think the Orthodox view differs because of their different view of original sin, but Luther, yes, and as I said I have no particular issue with the teaching.

Two types of sin, Original and personal. Four humans were born without original sin, Christ, Mary, Adam, Woman(Named Eve after the fall)… So i would say, every-other human was born with sin.

No argument.

Thanks for your posts!!!
Brian

Likewise, Brian.

Jon

 

[MichaelP3]

That number is rather tame. You of all people ought to know that.

Oh Mr Steve B. Your zeal regarding the unified Roman Church is quite remarkable but just a day on this forum will inform the greatest of minds! Lets be honest about that! Come on! Really you are still playing that game with us?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Given the massive division that has taken place, FROM, Our Lord’s Church, I think too many people just don’t take THAT warning seriously.

So dissension is no different than jealousy or having a “party spirit” (sorry - I find that translation humorous) or envy or anger when somebody cuts me off in traffic. Fair enough.

The reason I quoted from the Greek translation, is because I find the English isn’t always as clear as the Greek in identifying a particular description of a sin.

I only mention dissension διχοστασίαι, from that list, to show THAT, it has horrible consequences if one dies in that sin.

TULIPed:

And so, the only way to not die in that sin - any sin - but especially dissension - is to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Do I have that correct?

For clarification,

“Roman” is a rite within the Catholic Church among many rites. It happens to be the largest rite, ~98% of the total number of Catholics in the world but the other Catholic rites are fully 100% Catholic.

SO

Keep in mind, I’m passing on information going back to the first century. What you do with this information is your business. It’s up to you. No pressure from me

Rephrasing your point,

the only way to not die in that sin of dissension διχοστασίαι, is to be a member of the Catholic Church

BECAUSE

The Catholic Church is the only Church Jesus established on Peter and those in complete union with Peter. AND Jesus wants everyone to be perfectly one in His Church making us one with Him and the Father.

Jn 17: (all emphasis mine)
20 “I do not pray for these only, (i.e. the apostles) but also for those who believe in me through their word, (all of us in the Church) 21 that they may all be one; (in His Church) even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, (nothing separates Father and Son) so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, (that’s perfect unity that He wants) 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, (not the slightest division) so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

While John Henry Newman, was a Protestant, and Anglican priest, and on HIS journey of trying to come to grips with all the divisions he saw in Christianity, he did his own studies on the subject. Here was his conclusion(s)… see section 5 in particular http://www.newmanreader.org/works/development/introduction.html#protestantism

He ultimately came into the Catholic Church, became a cardinal, and saint.

 

[TULIPed]

the only way to not die in that sin of dissension διχοστασίαι, is to be a member of the Catholic Church

BECAUSE

The Catholic Church is the only Church Jesus established on Peter and those in complete union with Peter. AND Jesus wants everyone to be perfectly one in His Church making us one with Him and the Father.

Ok - I think I understand. Let’s set aside the sin of dissension for a moment. Take - jealousy for example. Is the only way I can avoid dying in the sin of jealousy is to be a member of the Catholic Church? I’ll assume your answer to that is yes.

Do I have to love Jesus too, or do I just have to be a member of the Catholic Church?

Is it possible to be a member of the Catholic Church and not love Jesus? What happens if I’m jealous then?

 

[MichaelP3]

Take - jealousy for example. Is the only way I can avoid dying in the sin of jealousy is to be a member of the Catholic Church? I’ll assume your answer to that is yes.

This is very obvious from the orginal poster ( not TULIped) and a very BIG concern. Not at all regarding Christianity but this person has what we “call faith”. A very good thing to have!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

the only way to not die in that sin of dissension διχοστασίαι, is to be a member of the Catholic Church

BECAUSE

The Catholic Church is the only Church Jesus established on Peter and those in complete union with Peter. AND Jesus wants everyone to be perfectly one in His Church making us one with Him and the Father.

Ok - I think I understand. Let’s set aside the sin of dissension for a moment. Take - jealousy for example. Is the only way I can avoid dying in the sin of jealousy is to be a member of the Catholic Church? I’ll assume your answer to that is yes.

Do I have to love Jesus too, or do I just have to be a member of the Catholic Church?

Is it possible to be a member of the Catholic Church and not love Jesus? What happens if I’m jealous then?

Paul’s point, based on the consequence he laid out, listing those sins, we see NONE of those sins listed , are slight sins…true?

So

If one is in one or more of those sins listed which of THEM would be easy to rid oneself of?

AND

By showing you division/dissension, and the fact, the Catholic Church has been trying to dialogue for 1000 yrs + with E Orthodoxy, and 500 yrs+ with Protestants of all stripes, to end division and nothing has moved the needle, then it looks to me, like division ain’t easy for one to rid themselves of.

Ergo,

to your other point,

I would turn the question around. Can one disobey one of Jesus major commands, deliberately, on a major sin, and still love Jesus?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

That number is rather tame. You of all people ought to know that.

Oh Mr Steve B. Your zeal regarding the unified Roman Church is quite remarkable but just a day on this forum will inform the greatest of minds! Lets be honest about that! Come on! Really you are still playing that game with us?

Re: διχοστασίαιfor dissension division schism

same Greek word in both these examples

Romans 16:17-20 Rom16:17-20 RSVCE - Final Instructions - I appeal to you, - Bible Gateway
Galatians 5:19-21 Gal 5:19-21 RSVCE - Now the works of the flesh are plain: - Bible Gateway

It is a grave sin. as in a mortal sin. As Paul says, in Gal 5, 19:21, that sin if one dies in it won’t inherit heaven.

SO

I’ve said many times, if Catholics for example, are in the state of mortal sin, of whatever activity they offend God at that level, they lose unity with God and Church… until they reconcile. If a Catholic or ANYONE, died in that state, of mortal sin, it would mean Hell for them…

By definition, in mortal sin they are cut off from the unity they require.

AND

Mortal sin effects EVERYONE, not just Catholics

 

[TULIPed]

I would turn the question around. Can one disobey one of Jesus major commands, deliberately, on a major sin, and still love Jesus?

Ah - and so we arrive at the heart of the matter my friend. Your argument is thus that only Catholics love Jesus. Sadly, there are many, many Protestants who believe exactly the same in reverse. I personally find their lack of humility…disappointing. I’m allowed to judge my own kind here, no?

As a Reformed Protestant (who could stand to work on my humility as well), I will say that - working side by side with many of my Catholic brothers and sisters - Catholics can and do love Jesus. Yes - I’ve seen their love for Him in the consistency with which they attend Mass. Far more though, I’ve seen and appreciated it in the way they’ve sacrificed their time, talent and treasure for His sheep.

You might be right though - perhaps only Catholics can really love Jesus. I know a whole bunch of Protestants who do a darn good impression though. And there’s good news for us that I think we can both agree upon from Mark 9:

“38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40 For the one who is not against us is for us. 41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.”

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I would turn the question around. Can one disobey one of Jesus major commands, deliberately, on a major sin, and still love Jesus?

Ah - and so we arrive at the heart of the matter my friend. Your argument is thus that only Catholics love Jesus. Sadly, there are many, many Protestants who believe exactly the same in reverse. I personally find their lack of humility…disappointing. I’m allowed to judge my own kind here, no?

Let’s not lose focus on what is meant by the specifics being presented. As I’ve said before,

I just give information, what someone does with it is up to them

SO

Re: Obedience to God.

I’m only showing that

When Paul says one who commits this sin and dies in this sin διχοστασίαι, they won’t inherit heaven.

Consequences don’t get any more serious than that… agreed?

TULIPed:

As a Reformed Protestant (who could stand to work on my humility as well), I will say that - working side by side with many of my Catholic brothers and sisters - Catholics can and do love Jesus. Yes - I’ve seen their love for Him in the consistency with which they attend Mass. Far more though, I’ve seen and appreciated it in the way they’ve sacrificed their time, talent and treasure for His sheep.

You might be right though - perhaps only Catholics can really love Jesus. I know a whole bunch of Protestants who do a darn good impression though. And there’s good news for us that I think we can both agree upon from Mark 9:

“38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. 40 For the one who is not against us is for us. 41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.”

How is that addressing the sin of διχοστασίαι,

 

[TULIPed]

When Paul says one who commits this sin and dies in this sin διχοστασίαι, they won’t inherit heaven.

Paul mentioned a whole bunch of sins - including dissension. You asked the question - “Can one disobey one of Jesus major commands on a major sin, and still love Jesus?” The inference is thus, “One cannot love Jesus and be Protestant.” If I’ve misinterpreted the logic, please correct me. Even better - I’ll ask the question directly thus:

Is it possible to be Protestant and also love Jesus? Or asked another way, are the only people who love Jesus Catholic?

 

[TULIPed]

When Paul says one who commits this sin and dies in this sin διχοστασίαι, they won’t inherit heaven.

Anyone who dies in any sin won’t inherit heaven. Jesus is the way not to die in sin. Jesus doesn’t want dissension. I get it. (And the Catholic Church has confessed in UR that Protestants AND Catholics were both to blame for where we are now by the way - but I digress…)

Jesus doesn’t want envy or a party spirit either - both of which I still commit (especially the latter) and confess and try - with the help of the Holy Spirit - to repent. I fail, and I keep going at it, running the race.

So I’m a Protestant and I love Jesus, but I think you’re telling me it’s impossible. Are you telling me I can’t love Jesus without joining the Catholic Church?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

When Paul says one who commits this sin and dies in this sin διχοστασίαι, they won’t inherit heaven.

Paul mentioned a whole bunch of sins - including dissension. You asked the question - “Can one disobey one of Jesus major commands on a major sin, and still love Jesus?” The inference is thus, “One cannot love Jesus and be Protestant.” If I’ve misinterpreted the logic, please correct me. Even better - I’ll ask the question directly thus:

Is it possible to be Protestant and also love Jesus? Or asked another way, are the only people who love Jesus Catholic?

Yes Paul mentioned many sins that are mortal.

I picked one to focus on.

using the scripture, from Gal 5, and Rom 16 showing the sin of διχοστασίαι

When a person in that sin, & dies in that sin, διχοστασίαι who is it, that judges them, and sends that person to hell? It’s Jesus, …right?.

Who inspired Paul to teach that about διχοστασίαι ? It was the HS. And the HS doesn’t speak on his own. HERE So we see where that teaching is ultimately coming from.

AND

While a person is IN that sin and remains in that sin then, THEY are NOT in a good place with God while they are in that sin. Meaning ONE is not in a good place with God, the whole time they are in mortal sin… that goes for ANYONE, Catholic OR Protestant. Lots of sins that are mortal in scripture. I’m just picking one to discuss