Sola scriptura and corrections?

[steve-b]

steve-b:

When Paul says one who commits this sin and dies in this sin διχοστασίαι, they won’t inherit heaven.

Anyone who dies in any sin won’t inherit heaven.

John makes a distinction between mortal and non mortal (venial as Catholics call it) sin. 1 John 5:16 RSVCE - If any one sees his brother committing - Bible Gateway

I’ve listed some specific mortal sins, i.e. those if one dies in them hell is the consequence

Since John directly says not all sins are mortal, your point is incorrect.

Now for the non mortal sin, if one dies in THEM, what happens to THEM?

Purgatory described 1 cor 3:13-15 RSVCE - each man’s work will become manifest; - Bible Gateway

TULIPed:

Jesus doesn’t want dissension. I get it. (And the Catholic Church has confessed in UR that Protestants AND Catholics were both to blame for where we are now by the way - but I digress…)

Q:​

Are you thinking, THAT, excuses one’s division or remaining in division from the Church…now or forever in history? I don’t see any excuse, that contradicts the perfect unity Jesus requires. NOR that Paul warns over and over again, don’t διχοστασίαι, from the Church, or they won’t inherit heaven. i.e they go to hell.

TULIPed:

Jesus doesn’t want envy or a party spirit either - both of which I still commit (especially the latter) and confess and try - with the help of the Holy Spirit - to repent. I fail, and I keep going at it, running the race.

Q:​

If one’s repentance was far from perfect, as in they only repented because they feared hell,… is THAT enough to forgive mortal sin?

I ask it that way because of John’s qualification HERE between mortal and non mortal sins, and not depending on just praying for forgiveness.

TULIPed:

So I’m a Protestant and I love Jesus, but I think you’re telling me it’s impossible. Are you telling me I can’t love Jesus without joining the Catholic Church?

How about I turn that question around. Since I earlier talked about the hierarchy of love as in what we love MORE.

if you remain in division over obeying Jesus command for perfect unity with His Church, what/who do you love MORE?.

 

[steve-b]

Jesus instructs us to confess our sins directly to the Father, as well as one another, no?

context context

Jesus is NOT saying I can forgive or retain YOUR sins anymore than you can forgive or retain MY sins.

In Context

Jesus is referring to one confessing their sins to those Jesus has ordained, and given the power to forgive or retain sins.

In. the beginning, that authority was with the apostles only.

THEN

to Those the apostles ordained.

Jesus instituted the Sacrament of reconciliation here

Jn 20:
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

TULIPed:

The Lord’s Prayer is after all directed directly towards the Father. James (chapter 5) asks us to confess our sins to one another. Suffice it to say that we have very different interpretations of Matthew 16 and 18 - which I think is beyond the scope of the OP (and frankly I’m too tired to debate).

Having said all that - I do think confession to a person - a priest or pastor especially - is a great spiritual discipline. We Protestants should do more of it.

A validly ordained priest and higher, is he only valid way sacramentaly to have assurance one’s grave (mortal sins) sins are forgiven.

I say again, HERE
prayer can’t be assured of forgiveness for mortal sin. That’s NOT from me but from John the apostle

If one is looking for assurance, then Catholics know it’s through the sacrament of Reconciliation.

 

[steve-b]

As always, I could be wrong, and am always open to correction…

The Our Father(and lets leave the “Our”(not MY) for another conversation…), ask us to “ask” for forgiveness of our trespasses as we should forgive those who trespass against US…

So we ask the Father to forgive us of our individual trespasses(sin’s) as we are supposed to forgive anyone who trespasses(sin’s) against us…

When you sin, you sin against, God, the Church, yourself, and whoever else is involved in YOUR sin, hence, the Body of Christ…

I don’t believe we are to confess our sins to one another arbitrarily;

As a RCC, we confess our sins; to the Father, to our priest(who is acting in persona of Christ) and should ask for forgiveness to the person(s) that that sin was against…
Also, we are to forgive, anyone who sin’s against us, as if we want forgiveness, we must give forgiveness… what you do for the least, you do for me…

If someone sin’s against me personally, and asks for forgiveness, I am obliged to forgive them. This does NOT absolve their sin, just the part of it that effects me and helps ME to grow closer to Christ…

Just my two cents…

Thanks,
Brian

AND

Because We need to make a distinction between mortal and venial sin, your example is more for venial sin

I can’t forgive mortal sins of another anymore than they can forgive mine.

 

[TULIPed]

Are you thinking, THAT , excuses one’s division or remaining in division from the Church…now or forever in history?

No. But it is up to both sides to reconcile. (I actually think the Catholic Church has done a better job at this than most Protestant denominations).

I ask it that way because of John’s qualification HERE between mortal and non mortal sins, and not depending on just praying for forgiveness.

And Paul sets up the concept that sin is sin and all have sinned and without Christ, we’re all doomed in Romans 1-2. If Purgatory makes you feel better, all good. I think it’s a cop out, but it’s not a hill worth dying on.

if you remain in division over obeying Jesus command for perfect unity with His Church, what/who do you love MORE ?.

If there’s a car wreck and both parties are at fault, who’s responsible for the wreck, and who’s responsible for reconciliation?

Jesus is referring to one confessing their sins to those Jesus has ordained, and given the power to forgive or retain sins.

And we’ll agree to disagree on who counts as ordained.

A validly ordained priest and higher, is he only valid way sacramentaly to have assurance one’s grave (mortal sins) sins are forgiven.

Fair enough. I disagree. I have assurance that God is faithful to forgive (from 1 John). What’s far more difficult - for me at least - is to repent. In fact I would argue that true repentance is an act of true contrition.

 

[brianjmc1]

You can forgive any sins against you, mortal or venial. This does NOT absolve the sin from the sinner, that is for God, Christ, and his apostolic succession priesthood - who were given this authority…

This is what casting the first stone was all about…

Again , in my opinion…
thanks,
Brian

 

[steve-b]

You can forgive any sins against you, mortal or venial. This does NOT absolve the sin from the sinner, that is for God, Christ, and his apostolic succession priesthood - who were given this authority…

This is what casting the first stone was all about…

Again , in my opinion…
thanks,
Brian

Yes I should have said it better than the way I did.

While I can forgive one who sins against me, I can’t absolve ANYONE for their sins no matter who it is against, anymore than I can forgive another person’s sins they commit against other people.

 

[steve-b]

No. But it is up to both sides to reconcile. (I actually think the Catholic Church has done a better job at this than most Protestant denominations).

The Catholic Church has no problem apologizing. And they do and they did in this case for what THEY might have done. THAT should have fixed it…right? But it didn’t. Why? Because This was a major revolt in beliefs within the Church. AND, It was heresies , that fomented from this revolt that can’t be fixed by merely exchanging apologies.

I ask it that way because of John’s qualification HERE between mortal and non mortal sins, and not depending on just praying for forgiveness.

TULIPed:

And Paul sets up the concept that sin is sin and all have sinned and without Christ, we’re all doomed in Romans 1-2. If Purgatory makes you feel better, all good. I think it’s a cop out, but it’s not a hill worth dying on.

He’s saying all sin is wrong. NOT that there is no difference between sins.

TULIPed:

If there’s a car wreck and both parties are at fault, who’s responsible for the wreck, and who’s responsible for reconciliation?

Said and asked differently

500+ yrs ago, Church authority , doctrines, etc were being disputed among a group within the Church.
A revolt took place as a result FROM the Church.

500+ yrs later, the Church is still ONE, AND those in revolt are still in revolt, AND have broken into unbelievable numbers of divisions

So, who is at fault NOW?

Jesus is referring to one confessing their sins to those Jesus has ordained, and given the power to forgive or retain sins.

TULIPed:

who counts as ordained.

All I can say,

The Catholic Church, was there when Paul wrote to THAT Church as the pillar and foundation of truth

SO

I’ll follow that

A validly ordained priest and higher, is he only valid way sacramentaly to have assurance one’s grave (mortal sins) sins are forgiven.

TULIPed:

I have assurance that God is faithful to forgive (from 1 John). What’s far more difficult - for me at least - is to repent. In fact I would argue that true repentance is an act of true contrition.

Again, from

1 John, HERE makes the point clear, he doesn’t recommend depending on prayer for the forgiveness of mortal sin.

 

[TULIPed]

A revolt took place as a result FROM the Church.

Why I wonder? Whatever it was - both sides were to blame (according to the Catholic Church). In any case I think it’s a perfect place to exercise humility - on both sides. (And I think the Catholic Church has done a better job in many cases than we have).

500+ yrs later, the Church is still ONE, AND those in revolt are still in revolt

Sort of like we in the United States are still in revolt from England? In any case, the Catholic Church in UR disagrees with you:

“ The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. ”

If we’re not accused of the sin of being schismatics, I don’t think it’s possible to be guilty of it, no?

1 John, HERE makes the point clear, he doesn’t recommend depending on prayer for the forgiveness of mortal sin.

Yeah - I don’t agree with that interpretation for a whole host of reasons. Here’s a brief view on the piece of scripture that I think does a good job on interpreting what it actually says:

What Is the ‘Sin Not Leading to Death’ in 1 John 5? | Desiring God

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

A revolt took place as a result FROM the Church.

Why I wonder? Whatever it was - both sides were to blame (according to the Catholic Church). In any case I think it’s a perfect place to exercise humility - on both sides. (And I think the Catholic Church has done a better job in many cases than we have).

RE: Luther, a Catholic priest, we know what happened there… He would not correct his errors so he was excommunicated. The sequence was here

Exsurge Domine, Bull of Leo X (1520 )
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm Luther’s errors are listed

Then came

Decet Romanum Pontificem Leo X ( 1521 )
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10decet.htm Luther’s excommunication

Re: Henry VIII, we know his story. He was an adulterer, and the Church wouldn’t accept his remarriage. Henry was also a murderer, and one doesn’t need to speculate, why the Church wouldn’t recognize THAT.

AND

He insisted on being head of the Church .

Re: Calvin, and others ☞ etc etc, all leaders of various sects within Protestantism we can follow all those stories

500+ yrs later, the Church is still ONE, AND those in revolt are still in revolt

TULIPed:

Sort of like we in the United States are still in revolt from England? In any case, the Catholic Church in UR disagrees with you:

“ The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. ”

If we’re not accused of the sin of being schismatics, I don’t think it’s possible to be guilty of it, no?

The key phrase is "once someone knows the truth" … THEN they are no longer ignorant if ignorance was the case. THEN they make the decision.

Like Lumen Gentium teaches

From paragraph 14

“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

IOW , it’s saying, just being born into schism, division, heresy etc etc, is not a permanent excuse one can use because AFTER one knows the truth…THEN makes the difference…right?

1 John, HERE makes the point clear, he doesn’t recommend depending on prayer for the forgiveness of mortal sin.

TULIPed:

Yeah - I don’t agree with that interpretation for a whole host of reasons. Here’s a brief view on the piece of scripture that I think does a good job on interpreting what it actually says:

What Is the ‘Sin Not Leading to Death’ in 1 John 5? | Desiring God

I’ll go with the Church’s interpretation who was THERE. But that’s me

 

[TULIPed]

IOW , it’s saying, just being born into schism, division, heresy etc etc, is not a permanent excuse one can use because AFTER one knows the truth…THEN makes the difference…right?

I know what Hindu’s believe. I know what Jews believe. I know what Buddhists believe. And yes, I know what Catholics believe. I have much, much more in common with Catholics than any of the others (including most importantly a shared love of Jesus Christ). But just because I know what they believe doesn’t mean I believe what they believe.

Let me give you a personal example that I’ve used before here. One time, a fair bit ago, I went to a Catholic Men’s Bible study with a good Catholic friend of mine. I was very excited to go and share this time together with him. We got there, had a cup of coffee, sat down, and the leader asked us to bow our heads to open in prayer. He began, “Our Mother…” and proceeded to pray.

Now - I know that he was praying to Mary for intercession. I know that Mary points to Jesus. I know that Catholics don’t worship Mary. However - in spite of all this knowledge - every cell in my body was screaming at me to jump out of my chair and run out of the building (I didn’t). To say that it was uncomfortable for me was a dramatic understatement. No matter how much I know - my conscience simply won’t allow me to participate in such a prayer. I have been raised from the cradle to pray, worship and exalt one person and one person only. This I know and believe. Nothing will change it - ever.

I still love Catholics and believe they love Jesus. I think you’re wrong about some things that I can’t in good conscience overcome. But I still think you love Jesus just like I do.

I’ll go with the Church’s interpretation who was THERE. But that’s me

Now Steve…did you actually go and read the link I posted? You fuss at us when we don’t read your links…(I try to read yours most of the time - except when you have more than 3).

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

IOW , it’s saying, just being born into schism, division, heresy etc etc, is not a permanent excuse one can use because AFTER one knows the truth…THEN makes the difference…right?

I know what Hindu’s believe. I know what Jews believe. I know what Buddhists believe. And yes, I know what Catholics believe. I have much, much more in common with Catholics than any of the others (including most importantly a shared love of Jesus Christ). But just because I know what they believe doesn’t mean I believe what they believe.

Surely you have a better response than that

TULIPed:

Let me give you a personal example that I’ve used before here. One time, a fair bit ago, I went to a Catholic Men’s Bible study with a good Catholic friend of mine. I was very excited to go and share this time together with him. We got there, had a cup of coffee, sat down, and the leader asked us to bow our heads to open in prayer. He began, “Our Mother…” and proceeded to pray.

Now - I know that he was praying to Mary for intercession. I know that Mary points to Jesus. I know that Catholics don’t worship Mary. However - in spite of all this knowledge - every cell in my body was screaming at me to jump out of my chair and run out of the building (I didn’t). To say that it was uncomfortable for me was a dramatic understatement. No matter how much I know - my conscience simply won’t allow me to participate in such a prayer. I have been raised from the cradle to pray, worship and exalt one person and one person only. This I know and believe. Nothing will change it - ever.

I still love Catholics and believe they love Jesus. I think you’re wrong about some things that I can’t in good conscience overcome. But I still think you love Jesus just like I do.

The Jesus I love also loves His mother. In fact He crowned her queen of heaven.
The Jesus I love, established the Catholic Church. He expects everyone to be in perfect union with it.
The Jesus I love, promised the Church He builds will be the pillar and foundation of truth
The Jesus I love promised even hell won’t prevail against it

The Jesus I love, looking forward in time, says only a few are saved.

WHY

Because as Jesus said

And to pick just one mortal sin out of many

διχοστασίαι for dissension division schism And the consequence for that sin if one won’t return to the Catholic Church? Paul says “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God”. IOW they go to hell when they die

That was the HS inspiring Paul to teach that.

So

remember I just give info. because I’m required to. What anyone does with it is their business.

I have zero pressure to convert ANYONE.

TULIPed:

Now Steve…did you actually go and read the link I posted?

I read it.

 

[TULIPed]

Surely you have a better response than that

Condescension? Really Steve? Why are you so grumpy today? I was just trying to be honest.

I read it.

Thank you.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Surely you have a better response than that

Condescension? Really Steve? Why are you so grumpy today? I was just trying to be honest.

TULIPed,

No condescension, meant. I was trying to be honest with you as well.

 

[steve-b]

I read it.

TULIPed:

Thank you.

In extension to my previous post, I’ll just add

Your link from a reformed Baptist minister, he doesn’t recognize gravity of specific sins. To him there is no distinction between sins. Sin is sin. He doesn’t recognize from John, that John is making a distinction between individual sins, sin that leads to death and sin that does not. Your link doesn’t recognize "a" sin, that is mortal vs "a" sin that is not. it just recognizes sin is sin.

SO

Does he really think, there is no distinction between murder and stealing a pack of gum?

He also makes the case, why private interpretation of scripture has led to untold divisions of groups who follow their own understandings of scripture ergo their justification of their own separate organizations.

While sin is sin, as in all sin is wrong, all sin isn’t equal in degree.

Your link doesn’t recognize mortal sin vs less offensive sin, venial sin.

So

it completely misinterprets and misrepresents what John says about the forgiveness of different sins, particularly mortal sin.

 

[TULIPed]

Does he really think, there is no distinction between murder and stealing a pack of gum?

No. See that discussion here (I need a tutorial on hyperlinks - sorry):

Are All Sins Equal Before God? | Desiring God

BTW - I use Piper because it’s away easier to follow than our confessions, which need major updating in terms of todays vernacular. You guys have done a much better job keeping your catechism modern in terms of language.

Your link doesn’t recognize mortal sin vs less offensive sin, venial sin.

What’s an example of a venal sin?

 

[TULIPed]

Ok, good. Thanks Steve.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Does he really think, there is no distinction between murder and stealing a pack of gum?

No. See that discussion here (I need a tutorial on hyperlinks - sorry):

Are All Sins Equal Before God? | Desiring God

That link, he describes the issue better there, than the first link you offered of his.
AND
Yes all sin is agaist God

However,

he still seems to waffle about what is to be done about that. Ergo, he doesn’t deal properly with the scriptures he references.

TULIPed:

BTW - I use Piper because it’s away easier to follow than our confessions, which need major updating in terms of todays vernacular. You guys have done a much better job keeping your catechism modern in terms of language.

OK

Your link doesn’t recognize mortal sin vs less offensive sin, venial sin.

TULIPed:

What’s an example of a venal sin?

venial sin is sin, no dispute there. AND it like all sin is wrong. Venial sin (as Catholics call it) is less serious than mortal sin.

For definition

The CCC defining venial sin in 10 paragraphs, … http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=venial+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[TULIPed]

venial sin is sin, no dispute there. AND it like all sin is wrong. Venial sin (as Catholics call it) is less serious than mortal sin.

Based on the link you gave, it seems like the gravity of the consequence defines a venial sin? Is the idea that the more “victimless” a sin becomes, the more venial it is in general?

I do think there are obviously varying degrees of sin. Many times though - at least from my personal experience - even the most seemingly inconsequential sins can be iceberg tips. Selfishness is an example - maybe it’s just selfish, but usually pride or envy or jealousy or something else is swirling around there somewhere.

Ok - here’s an example. I’m walking through a parking lot. There’s a piece of trash on the ground. I see the piece of trash, I know I should pick it up, I walk on by. In the grand scheme of things, I would argue this to be a venial sin, no? But how much of this is related to say - slothfulness on my part? Perhaps I think the job of picking up trash is beneath me, and I’m prideful? Sin is a very tricky problem.

And a thousand apologies to the OP for the thread scope creep. It’s all Steve’s fault

 

[steve-b]

And a thousand apologies to the OP for the thread scope creep. It’s all Steve’s fault

​

As I see it. The OP’s point is still very much in play.

 

[mcq72]

The bible alone is the ONLY authority to reveal Gods plan to his people of the teachings of Jesus Christ. A follower interprets scripture for him\herself with the help of the Holy Spirit and does not rely on anyone else, history, non biblical writings, Tradition, etc…

Is this correct

Nope…