Sola scriptura and corrections?

[TULIPed]

When a person in that sin, & dies in that sin, διχοστασίαι who is it, that judges them, and sends that person to hell? It’s Jesus, …right?.

How do they not die in that sin - or any other Steve?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

When a person in that sin, & dies in that sin, διχοστασίαι who is it, that judges them, and sends that person to hell? It’s Jesus, …right?.

How do they not die in that sin - or any other Steve?

They reconcile themselves with God on this side of eternity. IOW before one dies. It’s too late once one dies

In this particular case διχοστασίαι

One ends their division. They come home to the Catholic Church

 

[TULIPed]

So I just have to come home to the Catholic Church and I’m good. Got it.

What about how I feel about Jesus? Do I have to love Him? If I join the Catholic Church, do I automatically love Jesus?

 

[steve-b]

So I just have to come home to the Catholic Church and I’m good. Got it.

What about how I feel about Jesus? Do I have to love Him? If I joint the Catholic Church, do I automatically love Jesus?

If one really believes and confesses Jesus is Lord, THEN they show it by doing all that Jesus commands. IOW love is in action

Otherwise

one just has a “said” faith. And as James says, a said faith is a dead faith. (paraphrased)

 

[Wannano]

TULIPed:

steve-b:

When Paul says one who commits this sin and dies in this sin διχοστασίαι, they won’t inherit heaven.

Paul mentioned a whole bunch of sins - including dissension. You asked the question - “Can one disobey one of Jesus major commands on a major sin, and still love Jesus?” The inference is thus, “One cannot love Jesus and be Protestant.” If I’ve misinterpreted the logic, please correct me. Even better - I’ll ask the question directly thus:

Is it possible to be Protestant and also love Jesus? Or asked another way, are the only people who love Jesus Catholic?

Yes Paul mentioned many sins that are mortal.

I picked one to focus on.

using the scripture, from Gal 5, and Rom 16 showing the sin of διχοστασίαι

When a person in that sin, & dies in that sin, διχοστασίαι who is it, that judges them, and sends that person to hell? It’s Jesus, …right?.

Who inspired Paul to teach that about διχοστασίαι ? It was the HS. And the HS doesn’t speak on his own. HERE So we see where that teaching is ultimately coming from.

AND

While a person is IN that sin and remains in that sin then, THEY are NOT in a good place with God while they are in that sin. Meaning ONE is not in a good place with God, the whole time they are in mortal sin… that goes for ANYONE, Catholic OR Protestant. Lots of sins that are mortal in scripture. I’m just picking one to discuss

I get the distinct feeling you are not just picking one to discuss…you are arguing and make the Judgement that all non-Catholics are going to hell. Your judgement is in non-compliance with the current teaching of your own church which then places you in dissension with your church. Using your rationale it appears like we will have company.

 

[steve-b]

The Council of Nicea also decreed a number of canons (i.e., Church regulations) concerning various issues of order and discipline in the Church. Canon 6 confirmed the jurisdictional authority of Alexandria over Egypt and the neighboring regions of Libya and Pentapolis, “since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also [meaning that the Roman Church, in a corresponding way, had jurisdictional authority only over Rome and its neighboring territory—at that time, most likely central Italy]. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces let the Churches retain their privileges.” This canon clearly ratifies the ancient practice of the Churches in the major cities each having full jurisdictional authority only over the surrounding region.

It doesn’t refute what I posted here

The pope is the successor to St Peter. He has universal jurisdiction

 

[TULIPed]

So the litmus test for loving Jesus is if you’re Catholic. I respectfully disagree (as does every Catholic priest I know personally, and just about every Catholic I know personally.). But it’s always fun crossing swords with you Steve.

 

[steve-b]

So the litmus test for loving Jesus is if you’re Catholic. I respectfully disagree (as does every Catholic priest I know personally, and just about every Catholic I know personally.). But it’s always fun crossing swords with you Steve.

I gave may sources properly referenced. NONE of it comes from my opinions.

OTOH

you give me your personal opinions of things, or twist what I say into something I didn’t say.

 

[TULIPed]

Steve - I’m not questioning your sources. If you disagree with my conclusion, please let me know. I tried to accurately portray your argument. Where did I go wrong?

But out of curiosity - is it your opinion that you can love Jesus and not be Catholic?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

TULIPed:

steve-b:

When Paul says one who commits this sin and dies in this sin διχοστασίαι, they won’t inherit heaven.

Paul mentioned a whole bunch of sins - including dissension. You asked the question - “Can one disobey one of Jesus major commands on a major sin, and still love Jesus?” The inference is thus, “One cannot love Jesus and be Protestant.” If I’ve misinterpreted the logic, please correct me. Even better - I’ll ask the question directly thus:

Is it possible to be Protestant and also love Jesus? Or asked another way, are the only people who love Jesus Catholic?

Yes Paul mentioned many sins that are mortal.

I picked one to focus on.

using the scripture, from Gal 5, and Rom 16 showing the sin of διχοστασίαι

When a person in that sin, & dies in that sin, διχοστασίαι who is it, that judges them, and sends that person to hell? It’s Jesus, …right?.

Who inspired Paul to teach that about διχοστασίαι ? It was the HS. And the HS doesn’t speak on his own. HERE So we see where that teaching is ultimately coming from.

AND

While a person is IN that sin and remains in that sin then, THEY are NOT in a good place with God while they are in that sin. Meaning ONE is not in a good place with God, the whole time they are in mortal sin… that goes for ANYONE, Catholic OR Protestant. Lots of sins that are mortal in scripture. I’m just picking one to discuss

I get the distinct feeling you are not just picking one to discuss…you are arguing and make the Judgement that all non-Catholics are going to hell. Your judgement is in non-compliance with the current teaching of your own church which then places you in dissension with your church. Using your rationale it appears like we will have company.

I quoted my references properly referenced.

Where are YOUR references properly referenced?

 

[steve-b]

Steve - I’m not questioning your sources.

Really?

TULIPed:

If you disagree with my conclusion, please let me know. I tried to accurately portray your argument. Where did I go wrong?

just a suggestion, these paragraphs are quick read links from the CCC.

21 quick read paragraphs on mortal sin. http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mortal+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

TULIPed:

But out of curiosity - is it your opinion that you can love Jesus and not be Catholic?

I know lots of people who “say” they love Jesus but are in mortal sin.

So I ask you, in return, (just curious)
does “saying” one loves Jesus, remove mortal sin one is in, and continues to be in, and has no interest in changing, ergo it removes the consequences for that sin talked about in scripture?

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

steve-b:

TULIPed:

steve-b:

When Paul says one who commits this sin and dies in this sin διχοστασίαι, they won’t inherit heaven.

Paul mentioned a whole bunch of sins - including dissension. You asked the question - “Can one disobey one of Jesus major commands on a major sin, and still love Jesus?” The inference is thus, “One cannot love Jesus and be Protestant.” If I’ve misinterpreted the logic, please correct me. Even better - I’ll ask the question directly thus:

Is it possible to be Protestant and also love Jesus? Or asked another way, are the only people who love Jesus Catholic?

Yes Paul mentioned many sins that are mortal.

I picked one to focus on.

using the scripture, from Gal 5, and Rom 16 showing the sin of διχοστασίαι

When a person in that sin, & dies in that sin, διχοστασίαι who is it, that judges them, and sends that person to hell? It’s Jesus, …right?.

Who inspired Paul to teach that about διχοστασίαι ? It was the HS. And the HS doesn’t speak on his own. HERE So we see where that teaching is ultimately coming from.

AND

While a person is IN that sin and remains in that sin then, THEY are NOT in a good place with God while they are in that sin. Meaning ONE is not in a good place with God, the whole time they are in mortal sin… that goes for ANYONE, Catholic OR Protestant. Lots of sins that are mortal in scripture. I’m just picking one to discuss

I get the distinct feeling you are not just picking one to discuss…you are arguing and make the Judgement that all non-Catholics are going to hell. Your judgement is in non-compliance with the current teaching of your own church which then places you in dissension with your church. Using your rationale it appears like we will have company.

I quoted my references properly referenced.

Where are YOUR references properly referenced?

In the Bible…Titus 3:9.

 

[TULIPed]

Steve - I’m asking you your opinion based on your sources. I know you just give information and what people do with it is up to them. Perhaps you don’t want to give your opinion on the matter. That’s ok too. Here’s my opinion:

Catholics and Protestants can and do love Jesus and serve him with the help of the Holy Spirit.

In your opinion, would you agree?

Given that we’re on a Catholic website, I understand that we - you nor I - want to give any Catholics the idea that its ok to leave the Catholic Church. I understand that your view is (I think) that all should join the Catholic Church. I don’t want anyone to leave the Catholic Church. If people come to know and love Jesus as Catholics - terrific.

So - your opinion - can you be Protestant and love Jesus?

 

[TULIPed]

So I ask you, in return, (just curious)
does “saying” one loves Jesus, remove mortal sin one is in , and continues to be in , and has no interest in changing, ergo it removes the consequences for that sin talked about in scripture?

Sorry - I’ll answer. No - just saying you love Jesus does not remove sin (of any kind - even the smallest). You actually have to believe and love Him. And our actions are how we tell if we do. And so I believe that Catholics and Protestants can and do love Jesus. I believe they continue to sin - in all kinds of ways - but I believe that they repent with the help of the Holy Spirit, and continue to be sanctified throughout their whole lives.

 

[steve-b]

Steve - I’m asking you your opinion based on your sources. I know you just give information and what people do with it is up to them. Perhaps you don’t want to give your opinion on the matter. That’s ok too. Here’s my opinion:

Catholics and Protestants can and do love Jesus and serve him with the help of the Holy Spirit.

In your opinion, would you agree?

Yes

But the qualification is coming at the end of the post

TULIPed:

Given that we’re on a Catholic website, I understand that we - you nor I - want to give any Catholics the idea that its ok to leave the Catholic Church. I understand that your view is (I think) that all should join the Catholic Church. I don’t want anyone to leave the Catholic Church. If people come to know and love Jesus as Catholics - terrific.

The only Church Jesus established was on Peter and those in union with Peter the Catholic Church. HERE
THAT is the Church the apostles are building,
THAT is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth, HERE
THAT is the Church, Jesus and the apostles teach, no one is to divide from. HERE and HERE

TULIPed:

So - your opinion - can you be Protestant and love Jesus?

Yes

However,

I mentioned Jesus giving a hierarchy of love

1. Love God above everything
2. then love neighbor as one’s self
   From: Matthew 22:37-39 RSVCE - And he said to him, “You shall love - Bible Gateway

So the question really is, (that is to EVERYONE)

Who does one love MORE.

Do people love sin? Absolutely!!!

If one dies in mortal sin, who/what did they love MORE? It was sin…NOT Jesus.

So, my point is, and has always been, doing the will of Jesus, shows where one’s priority of love resides.

So

once one comes to the knowledge of the truth and chooses to remain in mortal sin, then THAT is their priority of love. They did NOT love God more.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

So I ask you, in return, (just curious)
does “saying” one loves Jesus, remove mortal sin one is in , and continues to be in , and has no interest in changing, ergo it removes the consequences for that sin talked about in scripture?

Sorry - I’ll answer. No - just saying you love Jesus does not remove sin (of any kind - even the smallest). You actually have to believe and love Him. And our actions are how we tell if we do.

We agree

TULIPed:

And so I believe that Catholics and Protestants can and do love Jesus. I believe they continue to sin - in all kinds of ways - but I believe that they repent with the help of the Holy Spirit, and continue to be sanctified throughout their whole lives.

Let me ask, Re: repenting

If repenting was all that is necessary, for the forgiveness of every sin imaginable

WHY

Would Jesus institute the sacrament of reconciliation HERE?

Since Jesus gave His apostles THAT power to forgive another person’s sins or retain them, He did that for a reason… true.? And since Jesus didn’t make His apostles mind readers, it presumes one had to confess their sins to them…right?

Re: Mortal sin vs non mortal sin (Catholics call that venial sin)

John makes a distinction between sins because mortal is treated differently.

HERE

THAT

is why Jesus instituted the sacrament of reconciliation. So that a person is sure the sin has been forgiven.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Wannano:

steve-b:

TULIPed:

steve-b:

When Paul says one who commits this sin and dies in this sin διχοστασίαι, they won’t inherit heaven.

Paul mentioned a whole bunch of sins - including dissension. You asked the question - “Can one disobey one of Jesus major commands on a major sin, and still love Jesus?” The inference is thus, “One cannot love Jesus and be Protestant.” If I’ve misinterpreted the logic, please correct me. Even better - I’ll ask the question directly thus:

Is it possible to be Protestant and also love Jesus? Or asked another way, are the only people who love Jesus Catholic?

Yes Paul mentioned many sins that are mortal.

I picked one to focus on.

using the scripture, from Gal 5, and Rom 16 showing the sin of διχοστασίαι

When a person in that sin, & dies in that sin, διχοστασίαι who is it, that judges them, and sends that person to hell? It’s Jesus, …right?.

Who inspired Paul to teach that about διχοστασίαι ? It was the HS. And the HS doesn’t speak on his own. HERE So we see where that teaching is ultimately coming from.

AND

While a person is IN that sin and remains in that sin then, THEY are NOT in a good place with God while they are in that sin. Meaning ONE is not in a good place with God, the whole time they are in mortal sin… that goes for ANYONE, Catholic OR Protestant. Lots of sins that are mortal in scripture. I’m just picking one to discuss

I get the distinct feeling you are not just picking one to discuss…you are arguing and make the Judgement that all non-Catholics are going to hell. Your judgement is in non-compliance with the current teaching of your own church which then places you in dissension with your church. Using your rationale it appears like we will have company.

I quoted my references properly referenced.

Where are YOUR references properly referenced?

In the Bible…Titus 3:9.

Wannano,

No, that’s about the OT “law”

Tit 3:
9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels over the law, for they are unprofitable and futile

Paul is NOT talking about THAT nor am I in the example I’m talking about

 

[TULIPed]

Yes

But the qualification is coming at the end of the post

Hahaha - kind of you to say. I would expect nothing less than a qualification to come…

once one comes to the knowledge of the truth and chooses to remain in mortal sin, then THAT is their priority of love. They did NOT love God more .

Yes, yes - we’ve debated the concept of knowledge before - I think we’ll continue to agree to disagree on it’s definition though.

Jesus instructs us to confess our sins directly to the Father, as well as one another, no? The Lord’s Prayer is after all directed directly towards the Father. James (chapter 5) asks us to confess our sins to one another. Suffice it to say that we have very different interpretations of Matthew 16 and 18 - which I think is beyond the scope of the OP (and frankly I’m too tired to debate).

Having said all that - I do think confession to a person - a priest or pastor especially - is a great spiritual discipline. We Protestants should do more of it.

 

[brianjmc1]

As always, I could be wrong, and am always open to correction…

The Our Father(and lets leave the “Our”(not MY) for another conversation…), ask us to “ask” for forgiveness of our trespasses as we should forgive those who trespass against US…

So we ask the Father to forgive us of our individual trespasses(sin’s) as we are supposed to forgive anyone who trespasses(sin’s) against us…

When you sin, you sin against, God, the Church, yourself, and whoever else is involved in YOUR sin, hence, the Body of Christ…

I don’t believe we are to confess our sins to one another arbitrarily;

As a RCC, we confess our sins; to the Father, to our priest(who is acting in persona of Christ) and should ask for forgiveness to the person(s) that that sin was against…
Also, we are to forgive, anyone who sin’s against us, as if we want forgiveness, we must give forgiveness… what you do for the least, you do for me…

If someone sin’s against me personally, and asks for forgiveness, I am obliged to forgive them. This does NOT absolve their sin, just the part of it that effects me and helps ME to grow closer to Christ…

Just my two cents…

Thanks,
Brian

 

[TULIPed]

Well said.