Sola Scriptura questions

[Richard_Kastner]

Nothing is insufficient about Jn 14:6, but it no way does it support or prove the Bible-Alone. Jesus was not refering to the Bible-Alone. We place your faith and trust in God,not a book called the Bible. Just like Protestants claim Catholics worship Mary and saints, I sometimes view many Protestants on the verge of worshiping the Bible and not God.

Chrisitanity is NOT a book-alone faith nor did it come from the Bible,but moreover, it is a relgion and faith of the person: Jesus Christ.

Ok, Nicea GHESTER made this statement

Originally Posted by CHESTERTONRULES
The bible is clearly insufficient.

Now when you make this statement you can’t turn around and say that part of the bible is sufficient. If the bible is insufficient it is all insufficient. The bible says
Jn14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, I asked

What is insufficient about this staement?

Enter Nicea. You say

Nothing is insufficient about Jn 14:6, but it no way does it support or prove the Bible-Alone

This statement not only contradicts CHESTER it contradicts what you say in the second half of your statement. If this statement is as you say not insufficient. That would mean that is sufficient and that would mean that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and that nobody comes to the Father, but by Him. If as you say “Nothing is insufficient about Jn 14:6” that means that Jn14:6 is sufficient to show us who Jesus is. This statement is in the bible therefore the bible is sufficient to show us who Jesus is. And therefore this statement if you go by your statement “Nothing is insufficient about Jn 14:6” supports the fact that the bible alone is sufficient to show us Jesus and eternal life.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

deleted

 

[PRmerger]

In the last three pages of this thread you have come back and asked this question no less than 10 times.

I apologize for my persistence.

Since you seem intent upon derailing this thread until you get the answer you want, lets go hypothetical. Let’s say that the CC compiled the bible

Yes. Unless there was another church with bishops and a pope that convened to discern, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what was* theopneustos* in the 4th century?

and says that it is God breathed, I’m assumning you are saying that the CC says the bible is inspired. If we have this all in place, then do you consider the bible all sufficient?

Not unless you can provide me a verse that says it’s “all sufficient.”

Profitable, yes.
Inspired, yes.
Formally sufficient? No.

Indeed, to say that Scripture is all one needs is a man-made tradition. Not a single verse in Scripture supports that claim.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The early church viewed many other non-canonical writings (Clement)as inspired as well as councils and even enscriptions on graves.

That doesn’t mean they were.

Inspiration was probably not the primary criteria the church used to recognize the canonical NT writings but only one of the criteria. Again this points to the fluidity of the process and importance of viewing the oral and written traditions of the Catholic Church as complimentary never intended to be separated.

As far as I’m concerned inspiration is the only criteria to cannonize any writing. After the bible there are no more inspired writings.

Deu.4
2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

This would of been completely foreign to the early chuch that all one needs is the Bible apart from his Church.

I think htat you are confusing the bible with what is contained in the bible. What is contained in the bible is the testamony of Jesus Christ. And this in no way would be foreign to the early church.

If you look at the Greek word for inspired that was used in this verse and see where else it is used in the patristic litrerature by the early church you soon discover the Church’s view of inspiration was much broader than being limited to the NT writings alone.

The word used in 2Tim.3:16 for inspired is theopneustos. It is derived from theos which means god and pneo which means breathed. So the word translated as inspired means God breathed which aptly discribes scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

That doesn’t mean they were.

Right. But how do you know which ones were and which ones weren’t?

As far as I’m concerned inspiration is the only criteria to cannonize any writing.

Again, that is begging the question.

After the bible there are no more inspired writings

That’s very Catholic of you to say that!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I apologize for my persistence.

Yes. Unless there was another church with bishops and a pope that convened to discern, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what was* theopneustos* in the 4th century?

Not unless you can provide me a verse that says it’s “all sufficient.”

Profitable, yes.
Inspired, yes.
Formally sufficient? No.

Indeed, to say that Scripture is all one needs is a man-made tradition. Not a single verse in Scripture supports that claim.

Let’s take a look at 2 Tim.3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

These verse say that the scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation, that they are able to instruct in righteousness so that the man of God will be perfect. So what more do you think we needPR?

 

[PRmerger]

These verse say that the scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation, that they are able to instruct in righteousness so that the man of God will be perfect.** So what more do you think we needPR?**

How about a list of what’s supposed to be in Scripture?

And how about the New Testament? Clearly, what St. Paul is describing to Timothy is the sacred writings of the OT. (see the verse right before the one you quoted [BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

What sacred writings had Timothy known “from thy infancy”? Only the OT of course.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

The bible says
Jn14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is it other than this that you think that we need?

This is what else I need, I can’t receive it from the Bible, I must receive it from the Church, this is how I go to Father by Christ:

John 6:51-69

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

 

[guanophore]

The church is addressed as a body of believers residing in a building called a church.]/quote]

Keep studying, AJ, you will get there.

There were no “buildings called a church” for three centuries because Chritianity was illegal. They met in private homes, tombs, and desolate places outside the city where they celebrated the Mass in hiding from Rome.
look3467;7042973:

When Jesus said to Peter, upon this rock, is meant that upon this faith that Peter had constituted what a believer is that Jesus’ church is established.

Yes, it was Peter’s faith, which was rocky, and Peter himself, whom Jesus renamed Cephas (Rock), and Jesus, who is THE Rock. The Church was founded upon Peter, the other Apostles, and prophets. The Church is Apostolic.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

How about a list of what’s supposed to be in Scripture?

I don’t know what this means.

And how about the New Testament? Clearly, what St. Paul is describing to Timothy is the sacred writings of the OT. (see the verse right before the one you quoted [BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

What sacred writings had Timothy known “from thy infancy”? Only the OT of course.

I included v.15 in my post PR. The OT is part of the bible is it not? Jesus said 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jn.5:39 Again these vs. tell us that “scriptures, are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” And
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

So I ask again. what more is needed?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

This is what else I need, I can’t receive it from the Bible, I must receive it from the Church, this is how I go to Father by Christ:

John 6:51-69

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

The key to this whole passage is in v. 63 “The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” It is the Word made flesh that we are to eat unto eternal life. It is the Word of or about Jesus that can “make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” It is the Word made flesh that sanctifies us. Jn.17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. It is through the Word made flesh, the Wor of truth Jn.14:6 that we
“come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Heb4:16

1Jn59-11says
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Where do we find this record of that God gave of His Son?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

What sacred writings had Timothy known “from thy infancy”? Only the OT of course.

But these writings were of Jesus.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

The key to this whole passage is in v. 63 “The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” It is the Word made flesh that we are to eat unto eternal life. It is the Word of or about Jesus that can “make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” It is the Word made flesh that sanctifies us. Jn.17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. It is through the Word made flesh, the Wor of truth Jn.14:6 that we
“come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Heb4:16

1Jn59-11says
9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Where do we find this record of that God gave of His Son?

John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He was in the beginning with God.

All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be

through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race;

the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

The Word is Jesus, not words about Jesus. God’s Word with a capital W is Jesus, not the Bible, according to the Bible. We need Jesus, not just a record of part of his life and some of his sayings, but him entirely. Would God, Whom loves us infinitely not want to be closer to us than our own spouses? Would He not reach across the sands of time and space so that we can experience a real relationship with Him through His Son? Does Christ only come to us spiritually through lessons and reject our physical bodies made by our Creator? Christ’s spirit was restored to his body in the resurrection, how do we separate them again and say we receive his spirit and not his body?

1 John 5:5-12
Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth.

So there are three that testify,

the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

If we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is surely greater. Now the testimony of God is this, that he has testified on behalf of his Son.

Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about his Son.

And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.

My Bible says testimony, not witness and record. I also noticed verse 12 is about possessing the Son, which I take literally, and 5-8 emphasized that the Spirit, water and blood testify and this is the testimony we are to have in ourselves so I couldn’t find anything that led me to believe the importance of scripture was even being discussed in this passage. It seemed more like the testimony we are to have in us is the Sacraments.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The Word is Jesus, not words about Jesus. God’s Word with a capital W is Jesus, not the Bible, according to the Bible. We need Jesus, not just a record of part of his life and some of his sayings, but him entirely. Would God, Whom loves us infinitely not want to be closer to us than our own spouses? Would He not reach across the sands of time and space so that we can experience a real relationship with Him through His Son? Does Christ only come to us spiritually through lessons and reject our physical bodies made by our Creator? Christ’s spirit was restored to his body in the resurrection, how do we separate them again and say we receive his spirit and not his body?

My Bible says testimony, not witness and record. I also noticed verse 12 is about possessing the Son, which I take literally, and 5-8 emphasized that the Spirit, water and blood testify and this is the testimony we are to have in ourselves so I couldn’t find anything that led me to believe the importance of scripture was even being discussed in this passage. It seemed more like the testimony we are to have in us is the Sacraments.

Ok, let’s use your translation
Quote:
1 John 5:5-12
5Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The one who has victory over the world is the one who BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of God. So how do we know that Jesus is the Son of God? We know it because it says so in THE WORD OF GOD the bible.

This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth.

This verse is talking about Jesus’ baptism and His death. The Spirit came down over Jesus at His baptism and God spoke Matt.3:17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. We know this because it is in the WORD OF GOD the bible

So there are three that testify,
the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

If we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is surely greater. Now the testimony of God is this, that he has testified on behalf of his Son.

God Himself has testified that Jesus is His Son. Again, Matt.3:17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. We know this because it is in the WORD OF GOD the bible

Whoever **believes **in the Son of God has this testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about his Son.

Whoever BELIEVES God’s testimony BELIEVES that Jesus is the Son of God and holds this testimony in his heart. Whoever does not believe this testimony, That we find in the bible, makes God out to be a liar. In other words if you don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God you are calling God a liar because you don’t believe the testimony that God gave us that is in the bible.

And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

How do we know of this testimony, that God gave us eternal life through His Son? We know about it through THE WORD OF GOD the bible

Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.

What does it mean to possess the Son Consider 1Jn.3

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

What is the seed?

Luke 8:11 The seed is the word of God. And THE WORD OF GOD is the bible

 

[PRmerger]

But these writings were of Jesus.

The writings known from “thy infancy” that Paul refers to were the OT.

When Paul is telling Timothy that “all Scripture is inspired by God”, *he could only have been talking about the OT.
*

And, yes, the New Testament is hidden in the OT, but, as the NT had not been written yet it’s impossible for Paul to be proclaiming that it’s inspired.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t know what this means.

You asked what else do we need besides Scripture?

I responded, “How about a list of what books are considered Scripture”?

Clearly, the Bible did not provide you with that. The Catholic Church did that for you!

So I ask again. what more is needed?

The New Testament is also needed. That wasn’t mentioned by Paul

And, again, the canon of Scripture is also needed. That wasn’t mentioned by Paul either. None of the sacred writers mentioned that. Not Moses, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter etc…

 

[benedictus2]

In the last three pages of this thread you have come back and asked this question no less than 10 times. Since you seem intent upon derailing this thread until you get the answer you want,

PR’s question is not an attempt at derailment but goes to the very heart of the discussion.

The claim of Sola Scriptura is the sufficiency of the Bible which is not itself found in the Bible and even if it were would be circular reasoning because being a book it cannot vet itself.

I wonder why it would take you so long to answer. As you noted, you had to be asked 10 times before you would answer an extremely relevant question.

lets go hypothetical. Let’s say that the CC compiled the bible and says that it is God breathed, I’m assumning you are saying that the CC says the bible is inspired. If we have this all in place, then do you consider the bible all sufficient?

Not necessarily because the Bible and Tradition go together. How the Church determined that the Bible is God breathed is based on her
Tradition because before there was ever the Bible there was only the Church and her Tradition.

And by saying that you agree that the Catholic Church is the one that declared that the Bible is God-breathed, you therefore accept her infallibility to make such a pronouncement.

So unfortunately you are caught between a rock and a hard place. There is the option of affirming that the Bible is indeed God breathed and thereby accepting the Catholic Church’s infallibility or denying her infallibility and so falling into the quandary of not knowing whether the Bible is God-breathed or not.

 

[benedictus2]

You’re evading the question. You said

Originally Posted by CHESTERTONRULES
The bible is clearly insufficient.

The bible says
Jn14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is insufficient about this staement?

What does it mean to come to the Father by Christ?

Does it not mean to follow Christ and do His will?

What did Christ EXPRESSLY will as can be ascertained in the Bible?

Did Christ EXPRESSLY WILL the writing of New Testament?

Did Christ EXPRESSLY WILL His apostles to write about Him?

As far as the NT is concerned, what was EXPRESSLY WILLED BY CHRIST, was His Church and the power to forigive sins that He has given to His apostles.

THAT is Biblical fact.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The writings known from “thy infancy” that Paul refers to were the OT.

When Paul is telling Timothy that “all Scripture is inspired by God”, *he could only have been talking about the OT.
*

And, yes, the New Testament is hidden in the OT, but, as the NT had not been written yet it’s impossible for Paul to be proclaiming that it’s inspired.

Sure they were the old testament, yet they had the testimony of Jesus just like the new. Are you saying that the new testament is not inspired?

 

[PRmerger]

Sure they were the old testament, yet they had the testimony of Jesus just like the new.

How was it that they had the testimony of Jesus?

Are you speaking, perhaps, of the Oral Tradition?

Are you saying that the new testament is not inspired?

I am saying that you only know what’s the New Testament, and what’s inspired, because the Catholic Church told you so.

That is, you only know which of these 2 verses are inspired by the authority of the CC:
*
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come*.

vs

I rejoiced with you greatly in our Lord Jesus Christ, for that ye
received the followers of the true Love and escorted them on their
way, as befitted you–those men encircled in saintly bonds which are
the diadems of them that be truly chosen of God and our Lord;

Which verse is theopneustos and which is not? And how do you know?

Answer: only through an extra-biblical source: the Catholic bishops in the 4th century!