Sola Scriptura questions

[Richard_Kastner]

So in other words, one verse is concrete proof the Bible-Alone is sufficient?

The bible is a book. It’s not sufficient for anything. The things contained in it are.

Again,show me where any verse wwhich was written intently by the NT author as proof for the Bible-Alone?

I am not aware of any verse that says that the bible alone is sufficient. But why does it have to have a verse that says it is all sufficient in order for it to contain the information that would make it all sufficient. Here’s Jn. 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Again what more do we need than an abiding faith in Jesus?

If the Sola Scriptura is sufficient,then it is only fair to say that Matthew-Alone,John-Alone,James-Alone,etc is sufficient for salvation. Sound right to you?

Matt, John, James, did not die for our sins. Jesus did and we find out about that in the bible.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Actually, my response was to you, Richard.

Your question, “What what would be sufficient enough?” is the exact WRONG question to ask.

But it is the question that I asked. If you won’t or can’t answer it I understand. Again look 3467 said

:
So, if I come into the knowledge of our Lord and Savior saving my soul, and know and understand that it is by His spirit that my heart is being converted, is that not sufficient enough?

You came back with this

Sadly, the Scriptures say it is not.

I would like you to show me were the scriptures say that comming to Jesus is not enough or sufficient and what you think would be sufficient? These are valid questions PR. Why are you avoiding them?

 

[PRmerger]

But it is the question that I asked. If you won’t or can’t answer it I understand.

Yes, I won’t answer it. It’s a wrong question to ask a Catholic. We don’t look at what’s the “minimum daily requirement” for contact with the Beloved.

No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then “How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ

source: Mark Shea

 

[PRmerger]

The bible is a book. It’s not sufficient for anything. The things contained in it are.

You only believe this because you’ve heard it from someone else. You have not read that in any pages of the Bible.

 

[benedictus2]

I would have to say the same about you.

Not quite. Or you would have shown me which point I missed. Like the way I did your post.

So now you are agreeing with sola scriptura?

Nope. Just agreeing that all I said is contained in the Bible.

Yes I do.

Not quite. You belong to a man made church, but that can be easily rectified. If you are convinced that your Church is the Church that started at Pentecost then surely you would be able to do a timeline and trace it back to the Apostles.
You do not need to post it here. Just do one for yourself. Christ’s Church because He is God would be here now, 2000 years later. If that is your church, that would be easily ascertainable through history.

Anyone who reads Jesus’ words in the bible is feeding on His body and blood.

Wrong again. That is not what Jesus said. Hmmm, me thinks you need to re-read John 6. But don’t skip the hard teachings - you know the ones that those who left Him found hard to swallow .

I think Jesus is the Good Shepard. I follow Him.

He is indeed but guess what, He entrusted his flock to be shepherded by Peter and his successors.

As for following Jesus, perhaps in some way you do but not all the way because some of the things He explicitly willed you question.

I would not call that following.

How do you know this?

Based on the posts of yours which I have read.

Yes He did. Here’s where He said it.

Jn.6
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The will of the Father is that we BELIEVE in His Son.

And what exactly does it mean to BELIEVE in His Son?

Read the rest of the Chapter and as I said before don’t skip the hard passages. Read them over and over again. He gives a very detailed passionate discourse on what it is to BELIEVE IN HIM from verse 40 onwards.

And take note what those who did not believe in Him do. They walked away and one of them handed Him to be crucified because He did not believe.

Do you suppose that this could mean not only to feed them with food that will sustain their physical bodies, but to feed them with the bread of life that leads to eternal life?

Yes, you could look at it that way too I suppose except that the rest of the verses do not support this.
But taking you up on this note, then you are definitely not doing that because you have not the where withal to give anyone the Eucharist.

The Rock upon which Jesus built His church was Himself.

Luke 6
47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

1Cor.10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Luke 6 does not say that Jesus is the rock being referred to, 1 Cor10 – the rock here does not refer to rock as foundation of the Church. I mean it is very clear what sort of rock Paul was referring to here as he refers to the incident in the desert with Moses.

But Matthew 16:18 is different. Here it was Jesus Himself who made Peter the Rock. Peter did not become Rock by his own accord. Peter did not become Rock because we said so.
Peter became the Rock upon which Christ built His Church because Jesus, the Son of God, the one who died for all our sins so that we may live – said so and thus made him so.

Anyone who has a dispute over this really has a dispute with Jesus Christ because it was not our doing but His.

Jn1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jn1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jn17
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

No issue with this. As a rebuttal, does nothing to support your case

 

[benedictus2]

Jn.6
63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Fallen in the very Protestant habit of selective reading hmmm?

How about reading the rather long discourse between verse 39 which you quoted above and verse 63. There’s 14 verses in between which seems to have been curiously overlooked.

The words that Jesus speaks to us, the words that sanctify us, the words through hearing and believing that lead to eternal life are found in the bible and they are they which testify of Him. Jn.5:39

Yes, Jesus words of Eternal life are in the Bible. But the power of Jesus words in the Bible will be nothing UNLESS you actually follow what He said. That is what it means to believe in the Bible and to believe in Jesus Christ. You have to follow ALL He has commanded not just those that you feel you want to follow.

Because when you do that, what you are actually saying is that YOU not Jesus is the Lord of your life.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
The bible is a book. It’s not sufficient for anything. The things contained in it are.

You only believe this because you’ve heard it from someone else. You have not read that in any pages of the Bible.

I have read statements in the bible like this.
Rom.3
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

This is a statement from the bible. It says we are justified by faith in Jesus. I believe that this is all we need, that this is sufficient, that this is enough. Again I don’t ask what is the “minimum daily requirement” You said

Yes, I won’t answer it. It’s a wrong question to ask a Catholic. We don’t look at what’s the “minimum daily requirement” for contact with the Beloved.

Are you saying that Catholics don’t need salvation? I don’t get your attitude PR. Again I’m not asking the “minimum daily requirement”. When look 3467 made the statement

So, if I come into the knowledge of our Lord and Savior saving my soul, and know and understand that it is by His spirit that my heart is being converted, is that not sufficient enough?

You came back with this

:
Sadly, the Scriptures say it is not.

Now you made this statement PR. You need to defend it and show where in scripture it says that faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not enough. And of coarse this begs the question that if faith in the sacrifice of Christ is not enough then how in your opinion is a Christian justified?

 

[benedictus2]

Baptism in itself is a symbol of one being immersed into something.

The actual baptism is the immersion into that something.

Now, Jesus being totally pure and innocent of any sin, as God’s representative in human form, was immersed into this worlds sins, or the sins of the worlds, as like a sea of sins, for the express purpose of nailing all those sins to the cross, ending what was and to initiate, usher in what was to come.

If you go over the account of the Lord’s Baptism, the people were coming to John to be baptized for the forgivenss of their sins.

Why did Jesus need to be baptized when He was not a sinner.

So His baptism is the real baptism that washes away our sins, but for us, it is Jesus sacrifice for our sins that does the cleansing, not the immersion into water, termed baptism.

If that were the case then Baptism would not be necessary. Scripture would disagree with you because it is quite clear about the necessity of baptism.

So what we do is accept Jesus’ immersion for the forgiveness of ours sins by following Him in baptism as a symbol of our conversion to Him.

Baptism is not just a symbol. It actually does what it says: it cleanses and regenerates.

It is not mandatory, but follows as an act of gratitude and as a desire to give our lives to Him.

Wrong. It is a COMMAND by the Lord Himself so it is very much mandatory.

The immersion in itself does nothing except for the individual who may feel the presence of God as His blessings.

You’ve obviously got no idea what a sacrament is.

You see, what is important is the change of heart, the conversion of the soul from a dead state to a live state which is done spiritually.

That is true. And baptism effects that.

The manifestation of it follows as the believer wants to follow on in the what may be the walk of life after conversion.

And that would depend on what belief one espouses.

This is ridiculous. So the efficacy of what Jesus has instituted is dependent on our belief rather than the power that Jesus has given to the sacrament? That sounds very much like I/me/myself am god.

Note: It may sound as if I am down playing the Baptism or any traditional practice which I am not.

Yes you very much are.

What I am simply trying to state is the very act of rebirth requires only that we give our hearts and life to Jesus for His cleansing.

The Bible disagrees with you. That is a man made doctrine not supported in the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
This is a statement from the bible. It says we are justified by faith in Jesus.

Amen!

I believe that this is all we need, that this is sufficient, that this is enough.

And, again, you believe this only because you’ve been told this, Richard. You’ve not ever read it in a single verse of Scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

Now you made this statement PR. You need to defend it and show where in scripture it says that faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not enough.And of coarse this begs the question that if faith in the sacrifice of Christ is not enough then how in your opinion is a Christian justified?

I answered this way back on Sept 13.

 

[PRmerger]

No argument there!

The problem begins where ownership, lordship over the word becomes a matter of “we are the only ones to interpret the word”.

The CC has never said they are the “only ones” to interpret the Word.

They are the guardians and final interpreters of Scripture, yes, but Catholics and indeed all Christians must read and discern the Word daily.

God gives understanding by revelation to those whom He sees fit promote His gospel without taking ownership of it.

Thus, it is free to whomever.

Blessings, AJ

You are very Catholic in your statements here, 3467!

We are just not free to interpret God’s Word in a way contrary to the deposit of faith left to us by the Apostles.

 

[PRmerger]

To sum it all up, the bible, granted,** given and compiled by the Catholic Church, **of which is fully appreciated by many, has within the pages of that book the words of God, that when the Holy Spirit touches our hearts, those words become life

Your acknowledgment (in bold) is honest and shows you are a true seeker.

It necessarily follows then that:

-there is an infallible authority outside of Scripture
-the Bible alone as my sole rule of faith is untenable
-God’s Word has been revealed not just in written form, but through the Oral Tradition.

And, I might add, that this may not necessarily follow but it is a logical conclusion:
-if I accept that the CC was infallible in discerning this canon of Scripture then could it also be correct when it proclaims other truths in faith and morals?

 

[look3467]

If you go over the account of the Lord’s Baptism, the people were coming to John to be baptized for the forgivenss of their sins.

Why did Jesus need to be baptized when He was not a sinner.>>>benedictus2

Yes, true. People were coming to John to be Baptized as a future picture of what the real baptism of Christ was going to be. For John said: Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: **he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

**You see, the water baptism was just the act of a future baptism of the Holy Spirit as per the verse above.

When Jesus then came to John Jesus said: Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

You see, the sought after redeemer of mankind has just now arrived to indulge Himself by being immersed into the water (Symbol for the whole of humanity) of humanities sins, in order that He as one body, may be totally responsible for the whole (Waters) as prescribed by prophecy as being now fulfilled. At that point and time.

If you or I were innocent people and wanted to liberate say…a dozen people from the brink of a death sentence, and I would offer myself to become their liberation by my death, then I would have been baptized into their sentence of death and they would go free.

Similarly, the bible gives us the story of the First man Adam being created in the flesh, found fallen, judged and then cast out.

Because of the fallen state, all mankind after Adam became fallen as well.

God then produced, created a second type of Adam, this time an Adam not tainted by the world of the flesh, but born of the spirit of God with all power and might of God to have the power to deliver the first Adam back into God’s fold via the fulfillment of God’s own laws of purity.

Of which no man born after the flesh could do save the Lord God Himself.

The bible than goes on to explain just how God went about to perform such a task.

The center piece of all of creation is Jesus. From Him stems all life, even from the first Adams birth, to today, and for all of tomorrow.

You see, benedictus2, what is needed to be understood in any religious belief is what God has done for us, verses what we can do for Him.

If we can understand what God has done for us, and are given totally to Him in mind body and soul, we would have achieved the goals that the Father desires in us.

The rebirth experience for some is a very joyous occasion, celebrated by following in baptism, for others it is a silent, pleasant enjoyment of peace of mind, heart and soul.

So if we stick to those things which promote the acknowledgment of the sacrifice of Jesus in our behalf, we shall be able to lead by example the way to Christ those whom thise world is claiming as it’s own.

In other words, as the bible states: 1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

We live in a world of hell, and we can rescue some from that hell by presenting Jesus as their savior, but we can not rescue them from death, for only Jesus can as per that verse.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Your acknowledgment (in bold) is honest and shows you are a true seeker.>>>PRmerger

I acknowledge what is, as is, for in my studies, my understandings, as given to me by the Holy Spirit, I have no qualms with anybody’s beliefs.

Why do I see it that way? Because Jesus came to redeem that which was lost! What was lost? The whole of humanity, not just the righteous, but all the unbelievers as well.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Can the lost be blamed for being lost when they had nothing to do with being lost because of the creative process?

If you answer to that is no, then guess who then, must pay the price?

Did not Jesus pay the price?

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

I acknowledge what is, as is, for in my studies, my understandings, as given to me by the Holy Spirit, I have no qualms with anybody’s beliefs.

Excellent.

But do you see where this acknowledgment takes you? Now you have acknowledged that there is an authority outside of Scripture that you submit to. And this authority is infallible.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I answered this way back on Sept 13.

Here’s what you posted on #156

See what else the Scriptures say are required for our salvation:

We are saved…

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation?Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?

You seem to think that all these things are talking about different things they are not.

I took these verses one by one and here is what I answered.

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
Jn3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 16
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
No argument here.

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

Acts 2
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2Pet.3
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jesus came to this earth to die for our sins. this is the great gift (grace) of God. A gift has two parts to it. It is GIVEN by God to every one, but in order for a gift to be valid for us personally it must be accepted. Part of that acceptance is repentance. If we are not repentant then we shune the gift (grace) of God and Christ’s sacrifice becomes meaningless to us.

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

Jn.3
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

1Peter3
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Titus3:4-6
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Again, we are saved, washed in the blood of Jesus. Baptism is the outward expression of our acceptance of HIS sacrifice.

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

Lk 12
8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Rom 10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And again It is HIS sacrifice that saves. Our declaration would be meaningless without HIS sacrifice.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

1 Tim 2
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Heb 10
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

What is the “truth”?

Jn17
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Jn1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jn.14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
We are saved by the sacrifice of the WORD made flesh, JESUS.

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

Rom.2
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

James 2
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

“faith without works is dead” An expression of faith IN JESUS is hollow and meaningless unless accompanied by appropriate good works foremost of which would be obedience to the commandments.

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

Acts 15
11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Eph 2
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No argument here we are saved by the grace (gift) of God which is the sacrifice of Jesus.

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

Rom 5
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Heb 9
22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Again no argument. His blood, the gift of God in the sacrifice of Jesus for the remission of sins, and grace are one and the same thing.

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

Rom 5
17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

2 Pet 1
1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

The gift of God (grace) is the righteousness of Jesus purchased for us on the cross.

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

Eph 2
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Col 2
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Again the same as the rest. We are saved by the Sacrifice of Jesus, The Cross, Grace, His Blood. Our acceptance of that Sacrifice is manifest in 1) baptism 2) good works

Remember all these verses were posted by you PR. They are all in the bible and all of them confirm the fact that everything we need for our salvation is contained within it’s pages. We could probably come up with many more verses that say the same thing, but the point is that they are all in the BIBLE and point us to the fact that acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus is all we need for eternal life. What else do we need PR?

 

[PRmerger]

You seem to think that all these things are talking about different things they are not.

I took these verses one by one and here is what I answered.

Clearly, the Scriptures have said that faith is not sufficient. The Scriptures are not sufficient.

And, why would we want to know what’s “sufficient” anyway? I would hate for my husband to ask me that question. “Is it sufficient for me to ________?”

 

[gtrenewed]

Baptism in itself is a symbol of one being immersed into something.

The actual baptism is the immersion into that something.

Now, Jesus being totally pure and innocent of any sin, as God’s representative in human form, was immersed into this worlds sins, or the sins of the worlds, as like a sea of sins, for the express purpose of nailing all those sins to the cross, ending what was and to initiate, usher in what was to come.

So His baptism is the real baptism that washes away our sins, but for us, it is Jesus sacrifice for our sins that does the cleansing, not the immersion into water, termed baptism.

So what we do is accept Jesus’ immersion for the forgiveness of ours sins by following Him in baptism as a symbol of our conversion to Him.

It is not mandatory, but follows as an act of gratitude and as a desire to give our lives to Him.

The immersion in itself does nothing except for the individual who may feel the presence of God as His blessings.

One may make of it a public ritual, or just a practice, or choose a place and time for it.

You see, what is important is the change of heart, the conversion of the soul from a dead state to a live state which is done spiritually.

The manifestation of it follows as the believer wants to follow on in the what may be the walk of life after conversion.

And that would depend on what belief one espouses.

Note: It may sound as if I am down playing the Baptism or any traditional practice which I am not.
What I am simply trying to state is the very act of rebirth requires only that we give our hearts and life to Jesus for His cleansing.

The rest, well, it is a matter of practice.

Blessings, AJ

AJ, on this thread we are debating the sufficiency of Scriptures. I believe the debate on whether baptism is required for salvation is a good example of this debate for Scripture can apparantly lead to different answers. That is why I asked for Scripture to back up your statement that it is a public display.

By various church traditions I have heard of this but there is no Scripture to support this and if you believe as I do that our life should be based on Scripture, it is important not to accept a mans’ tradition but to have, as Scripture teaches, 2 or 3 witnesses to back up our belief.

For much of my life I blindly followed a church tradition. When I found my spiritual life lacking I turned to Scripture and elders who teach Scriptures to center my life on Jesus. That was 21 years ago and that premise has saved me in a number of ways.

I get the Gospel, I received Jesus as the foundation of my salvation according to Eph 2:8-9 and other Scriptures. So by faith I am born again. However, Heb 6:1-3 talks about growing from elementary teachings, such as baptism, and grow to maturity.

I believe it is fair to say then that without baptism we cannot mature and maturity is lacking in the body of Christ. Without the understanding of baptism and submitting to it, we cannot keep growing according to Scripture. Of course there are other reasons for lack of growth but baptism is an elementary principle.

Jesus said to baptize disciples, Paul was commanded to be baptized, the Ethiopian eunuch asked for it in response to Philips teaching, Paul questioned the baptism of the Ephesian elders then baptized them, and Peter said he could not withhold baptism from Cornelius and the Jews should repent and be baptized.

Again, I say that baptism is not a suggestion for the believer. I find it confusing and maybe even hypocritical when church people point to someone who has confessed Jesus but never shows up to services as one whose salvation is in doubt and this based on one scripture not to forsake the assembling together; yet, there is much more evidence on baptism but it is a toss up belief?

AJ, how can you ignore the preponderance of scripture? You still quoted me man’s tradition not Scripture. Looking forward to your reply.

 

[Dokimas]

But Matthew 16:18 is different. Here it was Jesus Himself who made Peter the Rock. Peter did not become Rock by his own accord. Peter did not become Rock because we said so.
Peter became the Rock upon which Christ built His Church because Jesus, the Son of God, the one who died for all our sins so that we may live – said so and thus made him so.

You kind of mocked someone for taking a verse out of context. Looks like you do the same.

Here’s what you said:

[SIGN]Fallen in the very Protestant habit of selective reading hmmm?[/SIGN]