Sola Scriptura questions

[look3467]

AJ, on this thread we are debating the sufficiency of Scriptures. I believe the debate on whether baptism is required for salvation is a good example of this debate for Scripture can apparantly lead to different answers. That is why I asked for Scripture to back up your statement that it is a public display.

By various church traditions I have heard of this but there is no Scripture to support this and if you believe as I do that our life should be based on Scripture, it is important not to accept a mans’ tradition but to have, as Scripture teaches, 2 or 3 witnesses to back up our belief.

For much of my life I blindly followed a church tradition. When I found my spiritual life lacking I turned to Scripture and elders who teach Scriptures to center my life on Jesus. That was 21 years ago and that premise has saved me in a number of ways.

I get the Gospel, I received Jesus as the foundation of my salvation according to Eph 2:8-9 and other Scriptures. So by faith I am born again. However, Heb 6:1-3 talks about growing from elementary teachings, such as baptism, and grow to maturity.

I believe it is fair to say then that without baptism we cannot mature and maturity is lacking in the body of Christ. Without the understanding of baptism and submitting to it, we cannot keep growing according to Scripture. Of course there are other reasons for lack of growth but baptism is an elementary principle.

Jesus said to baptize disciples, Paul was commanded to be baptized, the Ethiopian eunuch asked for it in response to Philips teaching, Paul questioned the baptism of the Ephesian elders then baptized them, and Peter said he could not withhold baptism from Cornelius and the Jews should repent and be baptized.

Again, I say that baptism is not a suggestion for the believer. I find it confusing and maybe even hypocritical when church people point to someone who has confessed Jesus but never shows up to services as one whose salvation is in doubt and this based on one scripture not to forsake the assembling together; yet, there is much more evidence on baptism but it is a toss up belief?

AJ, how can you ignore the preponderance of scripture? You still quoted me man’s tradition not Scripture. Looking forward to your reply.

You are correct in all that you have said, of which I am in no way against any of it.
What I wanted to point out, is that the scriptures are sufficient to point out what the needs of an unbeliever are with respect to God.

The purpose and intend of the coming of Jesus was to save that which was lost.

The lost are those who lived and died, are still living today, and all those who have not yet being added to the heavenly rolls (unborn yet) that Jesus came to save.

That is the primary importance was to convert the soul, to renew it again of a heavenly source, being lost to the spirit of the living God.

Baptism was brought into the mix as an after effect, or as a manifestation of the inward renewal, where the renewal had already taken place and the baptism being only a confirmation.

Now, if one should say that Baptism is essential for salvation is not true, because the conversion of the soul has to be done first.

The conversion of the soul or rebirth takes place in the state of consciences, meaning understanding the consequences of it, from one state to another.

That is why knowledge (fruit) of the tree of life is essential in understanding before a conversion of mind, body and soul can take place.

Baptism is the first step towards that goal.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

It was done to set an example for others to follow. It is a well known fact that acts speak louder than words and the greatest Teacher too used this method.

I do not disagree with you there.

The Baptism of Christ was a must, for Christ had to be immersed into the worlds sins in order for Him to be able to take them away.

Listen to His words: John was already performing baptisms, but as a picture of the one that he was just about to perform for Jesus:

Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

It was a must in the order of fulfillment.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Justified by faith, yes. Faith alone? No.

Ok, I agree.

Our relationship with God is covenantal. It is spousal. God wants to marry us.

Our relationship with our spouse, in that it mirrors our relationship with our Beloved, can indeed help us attain eternal life.

You just got done saying that we are justified by faith. This we can find in the bible. Now you are saying that the reflection of our relationship with God in our spousal relationship helps us attain eternal life. So, how does this reflection help us gain eternal life? And where do we find this in the bible?

 

[PRmerger]

Ok, I agree.

You just got done saying that we are justified by faith. This we can find in the bible. Now you are saying that the reflection of our relationship with God in our spousal relationship helps us attain eternal life. So, how does this reflection help us gain eternal life? And where do we find this in the bible?

You are getting it backwards. The reflection of our relationship with our spouse reflects our relationship with God.

If we live out our covenantal relationship with out spouse then the Nuptial Relationship we share with our Lord becomes one and the same.

 

[PRmerger]

You are getting it backwards. The reflection of our relationship with our spouse reflects our relationship with God.

This was poorly worded.

I should have written: Our relationship with our spouse reflects our relationship with God.

 

[gtrenewed]

You are correct in all that you have said, of which I am in no way against any of it.
What I wanted to point out, is that the scriptures are sufficient to point out what the needs of an unbeliever are with respect to God.

As I said, I agree and that is why I wanted you to use Scripture. Since I have asked three times and you just keep repeating doctrine, it is apparant to me that you are young in the faith and are just replaying what you have heard. That is ok for a start but to have a meaningful relationship with Jesus and for discussion here you must be able to rely on Scripture for yourself. This is also true for your walk in general.

Of course it is better to be where you are now than many people so keep on keeping on.

That is the primary importance was to convert the soul, to renew it again of a heavenly source, being lost to the spirit of the living God.

Not the soul but the spirit. Upon faith our spirit is born again, our soul becomes renewed over time and our body won’t be renewed until Jesus returns.

I would use Scripture but I have to run, until next time.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

This was poorly worded.

I should have written: Our relationship with our spouse reflects our relationship with God.

How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

 

[benedictus2]

You kind of mocked someone for taking a verse out of context. Looks like you do the same.

Here’s what you said:

[sign]Fallen in the very Protestant habit of selective reading hmmm?[/sign]

Well Actually not.

Verse 18 encapsulates the chapter and cannot be interpreted differently to the intent and purpose of the entire chapter 16 of the book of Matthew. The rest of the chapter supports the interpretation that I have given to verse 18.

But Richard - that is total cherry picking without reference to their context.

This is why I am usually asking people here to read the rest of the text.

 

[benedictus2]

How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

St Paul: Christ is the bridegroom, the church is the bride. Eternal life is the marriage supper of the Lamb.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

St Paul: Christ is the bridegroom, the church is the bride. Eternal life is the marriage supper of the Lamb.

This doesn’t answer the question. Since you seem to have taken it upon yourself to answer for PR, I’ll ask you.

How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

 

[look3467]

As I said, I agree and that is why I wanted you to use Scripture. Since I have asked three times and you just keep repeating doctrine, it is apparant to me that you are young in the faith and are just replaying what you have heard. That is ok for a start but to have a meaningful relationship with Jesus and for discussion here you must be able to rely on Scripture for yourself. This is also true for your walk in general.>>>gtrenewed

That’s all I use scripture. After all, am I not a sola esrictura believer?" The bible is my only source for all I have to state.

I have given scripture references to what I have stated.

Just because a scripture does not state word for word what I believe, does not mean that the scripture does not imply.

Take for an example this verse:Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

“The mountain of the Lord’s house” is where exactly on the map? And established “the top of the mountains” where?

And are these mountains, where ever they are, are there hills surrounding it.

That would be questions asked normally with eyes of flesh. But with eyes of the spirit, one would understand that the mountain of the Lord is His throne, His government and the hills are the Jewish nation of which, Jesus being the mountain was exalted above the hills.

Here is the beauty of that verse: “and all nations shall flow unto it.” meaning, all the nations shall come to Christ, the mountain raised above the government of the Jewish nations, exalted Jesus, raised up as a standard by which all may see and be drawn unto Him.

Now, having given that explanation, one can see that many things written are not exactly word for word, but rather implied, or seen only through the spiritual eye of the believer.

So, your insistence of my giving you scripture that meets your views, probably, I can not meet for that reason.

The Holy Spirit searches the heart of mankind and determines at what level He can reveal things to in order to increase their understanding but not before.

Young in the faith is an understatement. I’ve been blessed since a child with an awareness of His love for me, His guidance throughout all my life, married life and now at my old age, am still very much if not, very keen on His works in behalf of all mankind. (Old age of 64)

I am not a babe in Christ, but a mature adult in Christ!

So, my friend, I could take you into depths of which you may find your self lost in understanding and would probably, most likely, condemn me to eternal hell.

But you see, I am grounded, settled on a foundation built on a solid rock, that rock being Jesus, and I can not be moved.

That rock is in me, has been throughout all my life of which only my love for Him has it taken me to search Him out, His secrets, His works and just why He is such a loving, God that He is.

I appreciate your gentle and kind admonitions, but you really don’t know me.

Quote:
That is the primary importance was to convert the soul, to renew it again of a heavenly source, being lost to the spirit of the living God.
Not the soul but the spirit. Upon faith our spirit is born again, our soul becomes renewed over time and our body won’t be renewed until Jesus returns.

The souls’ spirit, the inhibitor of the body, the spirit as you say is saying the same thing.
The key is the conversion whether we address it as the soul or the spirit.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Well Actually not.

Verse 18 encapsulates the chapter and cannot be interpreted differently to the intent and purpose of the entire chapter 16 of the book of Matthew.

Actually v.18 does not “encapsulate” the chapter. In the first part Jesus talks about the leaven of the pharasees v. 12Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. And in vs. 21-24 we read this

21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Jesus rebukes Peter and actually calls him Satan. He tells Peter that he just doesn’t understand God’s plan of salvation. Then Jesus says “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

He doesn’t say that we should follow Peter, who obviously didn’t understand what Jesus was doing. He said “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

The rest of the chapter supports the interpretation that I have given to verse 18.

 

[look3467]

How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

God doubles a thing twice before He brings it to pass.

In the bible we can see three distinct marriages.

1. God’s breath as Adam in Adam married to Eve, the clay vessel, or the weaker of the two, of which both are called Adam. (The first Adam = flesh)
2. The marriage of the breath of God as Jesus and Mary, the clay vessel. (Second type of Adam = quickening spirit)

God doubled that and now brings it to pass (third time) in a new marriage, the third type of Adam.
(The new creature= Jesus being the first, and then all of us, second)

So what we have here is, Jesus espoused (as like a wife) to God, and we espoused (as like a wife) to Jesus, and when we do become one with Jesus the marriage is complete.

Now, traditionally thinking, you will not find these views at all unless, one should desire the depth of the word as a personal goal and one to meditate on for personal insite into God’s mysteries.

Oh, by the way, there are no exact scriptures to back all this up, but, as you look at the whole picture, from corner to corner, you will see it’s development.

You’ve seen some of those three dimensional pictures that one must stare for a minute, looking at it in whole, until one can begin to see the 3 dimensional
figures begin to take shape in your mind.

Similarly, does one look at scripture. The Holy Spirit is our enabler to see the figures take shape, come to life in the scriptures where many can look but can not see.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Richard_Kastner]

God doubles a thing twice before He brings it to pass.

In the bible we can see three distinct marriages.

1. God’s breath as Adam in Adam married to Eve, the clay vessel, or the weaker of the two, of which both are called Adam. (The first Adam = flesh)
2. The marriage of the breath of God as Jesus and Mary, the clay vessel. (Second type of Adam = quickening spirit)

God doubled that and now brings it to pass (third time) in a new marriage, the third type of Adam.
(The new creature= Jesus being the first, and then all of us, second)

So what we have here is, Jesus espoused (as like a wife) to God, and we espoused (as like a wife) to Jesus, and when we do become one with Jesus the marriage is complete.

Now, traditionally thinking, you will not find these views at all unless, one should desire the depth of the word as a personal goal and one to meditate on for personal insite into God’s mysteries.

Oh, by the way, there are no exact scriptures to back all this up, but, as you look at the whole picture, from corner to corner, you will see it’s development.

You’ve seen some of those three dimensional pictures that one must stare for a minute, looking at it in whole, until one can begin to see the 3 dimensional
figures begin to take shape in your mind.

Similarly, does one look at scripture. The Holy Spirit is our enabler to see the figures take shape, come to life in the scriptures where many can look but can not see.

Blessings, AJ

All this may or may not be true, but without some scriptural president, it becomes just another personal interpretation. I’m not saying that this is not expressed in scripture, but like any good Berean I have to seach the scriptures to see if these things be so. You said
“Oh, by the way, there are no exact scriptures to back all this up, but, as you look at the whole picture, from corner to corner, you will see it’s development.” If it is so that there are no scriptures to back this up, I will have to let this go as I absolutely must have a biblical president in order to accept any theory.

Anyway this doesn’t answer the question
How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

 

[PRmerger]

This doesn’t answer the question. Since you seem to have taken it upon yourself to answer for PR, I’ll ask you.

Because we are Catholics our posts, both benedictus2 and mine, reflect the same Truth.

Just like I heard a good, holy priest, Fr. Corapi once say, (paraphrasing) “A person once criticized me for ‘not saying anything new’. God forbid that I say ‘anything new’. I am only repeating the 2000 year-old, constant, eternal truth of Christ’s gospel!”

How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

Why do we have to show this principle exists in the Bible?

 

[look3467]

All this may or may not be true, but without some scriptural president, it becomes just another personal interpretation. I’m not saying that this is not expressed in scripture, but like any good Berean I have to seach the scriptures to see if these things be so. You said
“Oh, by the way, there are no exact scriptures to back all this up, but, as you look at the whole picture, from corner to corner, you will see it’s development.” If it is so that there are no scriptures to back this up, I will have to let this go as I absolutely must have a biblical president in order to accept any theory.

Anyway this doesn’t answer the question
How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

I admire the dedication that a Berean believer adheres to just as I admire the dedication of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormon youth’s and many other denominations whose dedication is to what they believe and practice.

All that I have expressed in my last couple of posts is things I see in the picture in whole.

I also gave one example of what a literal interpretation verses a spiritual interpretation is.

So, let’s continue on then with your question.

How does this help us gain eternal life and where do we find this principle in the bible?

First of all, the world creates a need to seek comfort in something higher than self, as in a spiritual entity.

That curiosity draws us to the light of the word of God, being in a world of darkness knowledge wise, via the bible, or by some religious belief.

In most cases it’s the Catholic church that draws, in other cases it’s one of the Protestant denominations, speaking of basically, here in the USA.

In other countries, you have the different religions, other than the Catholic religion which also draws people to the same light.

A hunger and thirst for God is all the same everywhere in the world except at different levels.

Why did I say all that? My point?

My point is that every religious belief has a set of guidelines that they stick to, and if anything goes just outside those bounds, then the information is highly questionable.

And that I fully understand. Hence the divisions.

The principle in the bible which leads us to salvation is the Holy Spirit bring the words of the bible to life in our hearts.

Psa 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Psa 56:10 In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word.
Psa 68:11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.
Psa 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
Psa 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
Psa 105:19 Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him.
Psa 106:24 Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word:

These are but a few examples of the word leading us to the word, Jesus.

When the Spirit of God uses the word (scripture) to bring us to the word (Jesus), suddenly, the words in scripture become alive as (Jesus) in us.

There is where life begins, at that point and not before.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Why do we have to show this principle exists in the Bible?

It’s interesting how you answer questions with questions.Are you saying that I need to take your word for it? We need some common ground here and since I do not accept your churches tradition, the bible is it. Anyway that aside, you said

Originally Posted by PRmerger
Justified by faith, yes. Faith alone? No.

Then you said

:
Our relationship with God is covenantal. It is spousal. God wants to marry us.

Our relationship with our spouse, in that it mirrors our relationship with our Beloved, can indeed help us attain eternal life.

I would like to know how this spousal relationship that mirrors our relationship with Christ “can indeed help us attain eternal life” and what you use as a precident for this statement?

 

[Nicea325]

It’s interesting how you answer questions with questions.Are you saying that I need to take your word for it? We need some common ground here and since I do not accept your churches tradition, the bible is it. Anyway that aside, you said

Originally Posted by PRmerger
Justified by faith, yes. Faith alone? No.

Then you said

I would like to know how this spousal relationship that mirrors our relationship with Christ “can indeed help us attain eternal life” and what you use as a precident for this statement?

We need some common ground here and since I do not accept your churches tradition, the bible is it.

Contradictory and self-refuting statement. You do follow a tradition (SDA,Methodist,etc) and view scripture from those lenses;hence you do follow a tradition.

BTW: The Bible is interpretated from the ancient church Tradition and even my NKJV Study Bibles makes that very clear.

 

[Dokimas]

It’s interesting how you answer questions with questions.Are you saying that I need to take your word for it? We need some common ground here and since I do not accept your churches tradition, the bible is it. Anyway that aside, you said

Originally Posted by PRmerger
Justified by faith, yes. Faith alone? No.

Then you said

I would like to know how this spousal relationship that mirrors our relationship with Christ “can indeed help us attain eternal life” and what you use as a precident for this statement?

IMO, James and Paul said (my paraphrase) that real faith results in works. Faith with out works is no faith at all so … faith alone. The devil and demons believe but they don’t have faith, again, IMO.

 

[PRmerger]

We need some common ground here and since I do not accept your churches tradition, the bible is it.

I suppose you’re right. I can only provide apologia to you that’s found in the Bible as that is our common ground.

However, I must add that you do accept my Church’s Tradition, each and every time you quote Scripture. For it was my Church’s Sacred Tradition that canonized, preserved and provided them to you.

And, each and every time you ask “where is that in the Bible” you are supporting a man-made tradition that’s not found in the Bible.

For the Bible never says that all Truth that’s been revealed has been contained in its pages. It never says it’s the norm for our faith. It never says it’s the foundation of our faith. In fact, it says the opposite.

I would like to know how this spousal relationship that mirrors our relationship with Christ “can indeed help us attain eternal life” and what you use as a precident for this statement?

The entire Bible is a Love Story from God. It is His Wedding Invitation to us. It starts with a wedding in Genesis and ends with a wedding in Revelation.

Wedding imagery is just all over the Bible–firstly, I refer you to the Song of Songs.

See Ephesians 5. See Genesis 2:23-25

See Genesis 1, the creation story. Male and female He created them. A communion of persons was created–a unity which cannot be broken. It is precisely in this sublime One Flesh Union that humanity is declared to be in the image and likeness of God.

As for the spousal relationship between husband and wife: this self-donative, sacrificial, sacramental love that is at the heart of the covenant of marriage is the life-giving love of the Trinity. It is the love of our Redeemer, poured out at Calvary.

This gift of self in the sacrament of marriage expresses the Divine Image in the human person.

More coming up!