Sola Scriptura questions

[guanophore]

One is bound by Truth, not a particular religious belief.

Now, to the degree that one separates oneself from the Truth as proclaimed by the Apostles is the degree that one is in error.

Obviously AJ isn ot bound by the Truth, either. Gives new meaning to “knows no bounds”.

 

[guanophore]

I agree because that is based in Scripture; however, I did not explain myself very well. This is what happens to the believer but not just to anyone being baptized such as an infant or anyone baptized without faith in the Gospel.

The Apostles taught that Baptism replaced circumcision as the intiiation rite into the New Covenant. Do you think that the infants in the OT had to demonstrate some action of faith prior to being included, or were they included on the basis of their parents faith?

The free gifts of God's Grace and Faith to believe the Gospel is what gives entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

If it is free, how come the infant can’t qualify for it because they cannot earn it by an act of faith?

Baptism continues the process of discipleship, it does not initiate it.

So, you think those that were Baptized on Pentecost were already disciples?

To baptize an infant, it seems to me, comes from lack of faith in the mercy of God. The mercy of God covers the aborted, the dead at birth, and all children up to an age that they can receive the Gospel; just as God’s grace covers all people until they come to faith.

I can see your point, but it comes instead from an understanding of the nature of original sin. The Apostles taught that we are separated from God when we are born into this fallen world. This is what is known as Original Sin.

Jesus taught that those who do not believe “are condemned already”. This is because, until we are placed in right relationship with God by grace, we are separated from Him by sin. All sinned in Adam - this is not a statement of personal sin, but of original sin.

We do entrust the non-baptised to the mercy of God, but to say “the mercy of God covers children to an age” is not a bibliical concept. This is a tradition of man that emerged after the Reformation to deny the vailidy of infant baptism. The mercy of God does not contradict the justice of God, and all those who are not hidden with Christ in God are “condemned already”.

If the “grace of God covers all people until they come to faith”, then there would be no reason for the death of Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

What have all those things to do with salvation? Absolutely nothing? Why do I say that?

Indeed. Why *do *you say that? Are we free to dismiss certain doctrines? Which ones? Could you provide verses which say, “Doctrines which deal with _____ can be dismissed” or “Only doctrines which deal with salvation (and what verses are these, anyway?) must be believed.”

Because salvation is a free gift and nothing to do with all those things you mentioned.

Are you familiar with 1 Pet 3:21?

Now, all those things are issues that the church (Believers in Christ [Christians]) have to deal with as a matter of growing in the faith towards a the stature that of Christ.

Can you cite verses which tell us that these issues are not of salvation but deal with a “matter of growing in the faith towards a stature that of Christ”? Chapter and verse, please.

Salvation is a free gift, meriting no work on our part, for if we rest in Jesus, our Sabbath, we are free from work.

A free gift, indeed. You are very Catholic to say that, look. But one does NOTHING? So the Muslim is saved by the free gift of Christ’s atoning death on the cross?

 

[look3467]

Obviously AJ isn ot bound by the Truth, either. Gives new meaning to “knows no bounds”.

Opinions are taken into consideration and left to the Holy Spirit determination.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

The Apostles taught that Baptism replaced circumcision as the intiiation rite into the New Covenant. Do you think that the infants in the OT had to demonstrate some action of faith prior to being included, or were they included on the basis of their parents faith?>>>guanophore

The circumcision infants was done as a sign of a covenant between God and Abraham:
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

There is no indication of any knowledge being required for this action on infants, where as in Baptism is.

Circumcision of the heart requires knowledge which is an inward action, while the covenant with Abraham required an outward action.

Does an infant know why baptism is being performed? And if not, then where is the circumcision of the heart, which can only be done knowingly?

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

Opinions are taken into consideration and left to the Holy Spirit determination.

Blessings, AJ

And which Holy Spirit is this, AJ? Is it the One that tells you that your interpretation is correct, or the One that tells your Episcopal neighbor that his interpretation is correct?

“But when he, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will teach you all the truth.”
John 16:13

"Most non-Catholic sects declare that the Holy Spirit is “teaching” them the truth. However, there can be only one truth. Since the advent of Sola Scriptura and individual interpretation of Scripture, **how can the Holy Spirit be in each of the thousands of sects, teaching all of them opposing viewpoints? **It is to be noted that **all of the following denominations teach from the same Bible, so why the differences in teaching? **

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?
2. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is unbiblical?
3. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh-Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?
4. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?
5. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, “once saved always saved”, and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?
6. How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?
7. How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD?" source

 

[PRmerger]

The circumcision infants was done as a sign of a covenant between God and Abraham:
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

There is no indication of any knowledge being required for this action on infants, where as in Baptism is.

Circumcision of the heart requires knowledge which is an inward action, while the covenant with Abraham required an outward action.

Does an infant know why baptism is being performed? And if not, then where is the circumcision of the heart, which can only be done knowingly?

Blessings, AJ

Your response is quite peculiar.

Why such strong feeling about a practice which, according to you, has absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation?

 

[look3467]

And which Holy Spirit is this, AJ? Is it the One that tells you that your interpretation is correct, or the One that tells your Episcopal neighbor that his interpretation is correct?>>>PRmerger

The Holy Spirit that glorifies God!

God deals with us as individuals, according to the level of our abilities to understand, and the position in which He the Holy Spirit deems necessary, we hold in order that we may learn to deal with our differences in the spirit of Love, which is, His spirit.

Now, you will find in all my posts any discriminatory remarks against anybody’s beliefs, views or practices.
I will challenge some of those beliefs in a form of a discussion, but not to demean any one in particular.

The whole point is to give God all the glory via His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

How we do that? By glorifying His works in Jesus!

How we interpret them, well, that is up to the individual and to how that individual wants to worship God.

In a family of six kids, I have six different ways by which attention is given me at my birthdays, anniversaries and other special days.

Yet, they are all family with only one father. And this father loves them all equally and unconditionally, regardless if they show any attention to me or not.

My love for them is greater than anything they can do that may offend me.

Likewise, God is the same, greater than anything we do that may offend Him.

That was demonstrated by Jesus, the true character of the the Godhead physically, in the way Jesus submitted to mankind’s will to do with Him what they wanted and not retaliate not one bit, yet saying at the end “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

Is not God an awesome God?

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

“But when he, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will teach you all the truth.”
John 16:13

Which is…the administration of the Holy Spirit.

If one’s heart is not touched by the power of the Holy Spirit, we can comprehend absolutely nothing spiritual!

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

“But when he, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will teach you all the truth.”
John 16:13

Which is…the administration of the Holy Spirit.

If one’s heart is not touched by the power of the Holy Spirit, we can comprehend absolutely nothing spiritual!

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

"Most non-Catholic sects declare that the Holy Spirit is “teaching” them the truth. However, there can be only one truth. Since the advent of Sola Scriptura and individual interpretation of Scripture, how can the Holy Spirit be in each of the thousands of sects, teaching all of them opposing viewpoints? It is to be noted that **all of the following denominations teach from the same Bible, so why the differences in teaching? **

Answer to the underlined words: The Holy Spirit will not be limited by mankind as to where, how and when He chooses to intervene in mankind’s live’s.

We are the only ones that can place limits to whom, where and how we believe the Holy Spirit should intervene in the lives of people.

Is that not what we do, because of what religious beliefs we espouse?

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?
2. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is unbiblical?
3. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh-Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?
4. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?
5. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, “once saved always saved”, and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?
6. How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?
7. How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD?"

The question is not “how”, but why! Why would the Holy Spirit deal with all those differences?

The reason is that the Holy Spirit deals with the heart, as in the conversion of the heart from the world that was, to the new world that now is, and that being the new Jerusalem world, or the kingdom of God.

One’s dead spirit reborn is a spiritual experience and nothing to do with the external works of mankind.

Now, the experience will affect the physical by the changing of the mind (Repentance) from the formal way of thinking to the new.

Just what does the new way of thinking consist of? Well, those things which produce good works from dead works!

What are good works? Those things which add to the kingdom of God by way of our behavior.

How we worship God, is an individual choice.

You’ve heard of testimonies where lives have been changed? Like from drugs, alcoholism, prostitution, gambling, selfishness, anger, hatred, glutenous, stealing, cheating on spouses, destruction of property, etc. etc.

All those things are former things, pertaining to the world that then was, of whose power Jesus conquered and gave us power over them, had we but just claim His power and live there in.

Jesus left us two Commandments, One: Love God and Two: love thy neighbor.

If we do any one of those two is the same as doing both.

Now what does it take to do the second? Is the love of the first!

Loving thy neighbor is unconditional, just as God in Jesus died for all of us unconditionally!

You see what I am saying? The heart is where God deals with us at!

And that is what we should be addressing, not practices.

Blessings, AJ

 

[mackbrislawn]

In the case of your first scenario, that’s a bit of an extreme scenario, but the salvation of a person would only rest within the knowledge of Christ the redeemer, which even a child can understand. A person doesn’t have to have a ThD in biblical studies to be saved.

In this case, the child would get its knowledge of Christ from the church, which illustrates the importance of the church, and how the bible is in actuality the property of the church, not the individual.

 

[PRmerger]

The Holy Spirit that glorifies God!

Yet teaches contrary doctrines?

:dts:

The Holy Spirit does not create chaos and confusion, which is the fruit of the paradigm you’ve proposed.

Now, you will find in all my posts any discriminatory remarks against anybody’s beliefs, views or practices.

Huh?

If you mean that you think all beliefs, views and practices are ok…I challenge you on that one for sure!

I will challenge some of those beliefs in a form of a discussion, but not to demean any one in particular.

Good for you, AJ!

The whole point is to give God all the glory via His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Nonsequitor.

How we interpret them, well, that is up to the individual and to how that individual wants to worship God.

***That, AJ, is the most dangerous statement I’ve read on this thread. ***

If an individual decides that women ought not be allowed to worship in church, based on his interpretations of Scripture, you’d be ok with that?

And if an individual decides, upon reading the Bible and consulting the Holy Spirit, that he’s supposed to marry his 14 year old cousin, you’re ok with that?

In a family of six kids, I have six different ways by which attention is given me at my birthdays, anniversaries and other special days.

Yes, that’s why the CC has different religious orders–Benedictines, Franciscans, Ursulines…etc etc etc.

But saying that the Holy Spirit tells one group that baptism is a sacrament, but another group that it’s an ordinance, and another group that it just gets you wet? Never.

 

[PRmerger]

Answer to the underlined words: The Holy Spirit will not be limited by mankind as to where, how and when He chooses to intervene in mankind’s live’s.

Amen!

We are the only ones that can place limits to whom, where and how we believe the Holy Spirit should intervene in the lives of people.

Not the Catholic Church. Perhaps yours does?

Is that not what we do, because of what religious beliefs we espouse?

Blessings, AJ

We are commanded to love God with our entire heart, soul, strength and MIND. If we do not know what the Holy Spirit is teaching, and if it’s true, then we cannot know God with our entire MIND.

We are loving a false god, created in our own image.

 

[PRmerger]

The question is not “how”, but why! Why would the Holy Spirit deal with all those differences?

Exactly.

'Tis not the Holy Spirit, it seems, but rather the Author of Chaos and Confusion.

 

[look3467]

In this case, the child would get its knowledge of Christ from the church, which illustrates the importance of the church, and how the bible is in actuality the property of the church, not the individual.

“The child” is being referenced here as one needing parental guidance.

In the case of an adult child, spiritually speaking, the church can be a parent in the young spiritual age of the adult child in guidance.

But as a adult, the bible itself can lead one to Christ simply by reading it with a need to find God because the Holy Spirit will see to it that knowledge of God is revealed as per this verse: Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Why would God say those words if He did not mean them? God is hidden, yes, but only to those who do not look for Him.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Notice the three times?
Ask, seek and knock? God doubles things twice before He brings it to pass.
When knocking, God opens up our understanding of Him.

Now, all those verses are found in the bible of which the Holy Spirit is the revelator.

In that case, the Holy Spirit becomes the parental guide leading the individual to where fellowship may be gotten to help grow in spirit.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
The Holy Spirit that glorifies God!

Yet teaches contrary doctrines?>>>PRmerger

One thing that perhaps ought to be looked at by many is that the New Testament becomes our workbook.

The Old Testament introduced God to mankind via a chosen people, gave us His laws by the same and also gave us advance notice of the coming deliverer of mankind as a promise.

You see, God doubles tings twice before He brings it to pass.

First was the introduction as stated above.

Second, God establishes the first by the second and the second being the actual appearance of Jesus. Jesus established, confirmed all that was introduced in the first as promise by crossing every “T” and dotting every “I” in fulfillment.

Now, the third time He brings it to pass in the New Creation, the new man, the new creature as in you and I are.

That is evident in the scriptures.

Therefore, after Jesus having ascended, left us with 12 Apostles as our jump start to working out what Jesus had just accomplished for us, and that was to grant us salvation for free.

All’s we have to do is to rest in Him as our works.

Now, doctrines, is a word that can entail just about anything of mankind’s imagination.

Examples are: some do washing of the feet, some baptize in rivers only, others in churches and yet others baptize infants.

Communion, is another where some, as like Catholics, celebrate it differently than others, where the bible states “that as often as one meets celebrate it”.

Another is on what day is the Lord’s day celebrated? Some on Saturdays and others on Sundays.

That was just a few of the many different ways mankind can worship God. The key to any of it and all of it is that the heart be converted to the love of God, and neighbor, as Jesus commanded.

You and I could kneel down, side by side, bow our heads in prayer and petition, praise and glorify God with our inner spirits, mano-a- amno, meaning directly with God, as one in the same spirit.

Does our differences, our practices make a difference in that? Only if, you or I would have an objection to how we should pray, or kneeling down verses bowing down or some sort of doctrinal practice, not of God but of mankind’s imagination.

If you mean that you think all beliefs, views and practices are ok…I challenge you on that one for sure!

I thought that that is the case in this discussion already.

My point is, that above all else, the heart must, I say must, be first converted, to even begin to grow spiritually, let alone all of the extra add on’s by mankind as a requirement.

So doctrinal differences, make for only practices verses the conversion of the heart makes for the one’s of the spirit which is essential to communicating directly with God.

Blessings, AJ

 

[PRmerger]

One thing that perhaps ought to be looked at by many is that the New Testament becomes our workbook.

The Old Testament introduced God to mankind via a chosen people, gave us His laws by the same and also gave us advance notice of the coming deliverer of mankind as a promise.

You see, God doubles tings twice before He brings it to pass.

First was the introduction as stated above.

Second, God establishes the first by the second and the second being the actual appearance of Jesus. Jesus established, confirmed all that was introduced in the first as promise by crossing every “T” and dotting every “I” in fulfillment.

Now, the third time He brings it to pass in the New Creation, the new man, the new creature as in you and I are.

That is evident in the scriptures.

Therefore, after Jesus having ascended, left us with 12 Apostles as our jump start to working out what Jesus had just accomplished for us, and that was to grant us salvation for free.

All’s we have to do is to rest in Him as our works.

Interesting POV, but nonsequitors to be sure.

Now, doctrines, is a word that can entail just about anything of mankind’s imagination.

Examples are: some do washing of the feet, some baptize in rivers only, others in churches and yet others baptize infants.

Communion, is another where some, as like Catholics, celebrate it differently than others, where the bible states “that as often as one meets celebrate it”.

Another is on what day is the Lord’s day celebrated? Some on Saturdays and others on Sundays.

That was just a few of the many different ways mankind can worship God.

Ok.

But if one claims that the Holy Spirit converted his heart to say that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ but another claims that the Holy Spirit has convicted him to believe that this is an abomination, are you saying that the HS told both of these people contrary things?

 

[PRmerger]

The key to any of it and all of it is that the heart be converted to the love of God, and neighbor, as Jesus commanded.

I have seen many an individual who believes his heart is converted to the love of God who proclaims whacky, convoluted teachings.

You and I could kneel down, side by side, bow our heads in prayer and petition, praise and glorify God with our inner spirits, mano-a- amno, meaning directly with God, as one in the same spirit.

Well, only those who have the Eucharist can truly do this “mano-a-mano” with God.

Does our differences, our practices make a difference in that? Only if, you or I would have an objection to how we should pray, or kneeling down verses bowing down or some sort of doctrinal practice, not of God but of mankind’s imagination.

Oh, absolutely our practices make a difference.