Some Mormon Honesty

[LongJourney]

I personally like a full color spectrum in my analysis.

Congratulations!! Do you like Sunstone and John Dehlin?

I really didn’t think you were a Dallin Oaks and Ensign kind a’guy.

 

[JeanMichel]

So you think he was out of character when he drove the money changers out of the temple?

Chester, that is a red herring. How often did Christ show love toward others? How many times did he act in anger? You have yet to act in anger. Have you demonstrated love? Can each of us demonstrate love more effectively?

This is really a conversation that you need to have with God; maybe even your priest. I am only a poor sinner that bumbles along the way and errs far too often.

 

[Pahoran]

So you think he was out of character when he drove the money changers out of the temple?

Are you saying that Mormonism is your Father’s house, and you are simply trying to clean it up?

It’s often a good idea to think about the analogies we use.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[catholic-rcia]

God does not answer all prayers at least not in the way that we usually think of…his answer might be no answer or strength when we need it…my VBS children said…never pray to God for somethng you want…you use wishing stars for that…pretty austute for 4th graders… You may do all the above with no results…The Holy Spirit speaks to those who listen when they need him to…I don’t believe there is a special way to pray…

**But it seemed like when a Mormon lost their faith…it was their fault…it was something they didn’t do right or long enough or hard enough…you have no idea if you meet your criteria but when you think so and no answer comes along…well what do you think then? What would you do then? **

**No one enjoys being told time and time again, you aren’t good enough when you try your very best. God understands how you try and if you fall short well, he lifts you up so you can try again…he doesn’t as far as I’m concerned say well you sure screwed up that’s it for you…no…not since he gave us his son for our sins. **

**What do you do when a prayer isn’t answered? How do you know if it is answered? **

stormy

Great stuff? No flattery intended as that would be sin.
So many believe that if you are having a hard time it’s your own fault, you did not pray enough, you failed somewhere, not paying your tithing etc…I find this way of thinking to be sinful.

The Apostles followed Jesus and were martyred one by one. In this blessing.

When one is suffering or going through a tough time it may simply be because this is how it is. What we are called to do is come to them in their suffering and love them, be with them. Many of my past prayers have been selfish prayers. My prayers of late have been just to be with God, for others to be with God. Not asking for anything other than His presence. When my prayers are not answered it does not matter. God knows what I want and gives me what I need. Unless I chose to force a wish upon myself. Most the time I know the difference.

Blessing do not come in the form of a better life according to this world. They come in the form of how much time is spent with God. Good times, bad times, terrible times, joyful times it does not matter. When you have His peace in you it does not matter. All prayers are answered, the question is do we listen or talk. the one who made the utube video, he heard some truth. What he does with it is up to him. I have called him because he lives close to me. he has not returned my call. he must think he has something to loose I don’t know.

In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[catholic-rcia]

I like John Dehlin.

He is my neighbor. After I watched the video I called him to get together. I told him not so much to evangelize but rather to talk as the spirit would move us. He agreed. I called him again and received a message machine. He never called me back. He did tell me he was a hard headed Mormon. I am under the impression that he loves the good of the people he is around and does not care about all of the problems the Church has with Doctrine etc… My LDS sister once told me that even if the church was false she would still belong because of all the good it does.

The problem is its not from God. In the desert Satan offered good things to Jesus as well. What’s wrong with giving bread to one who is hungry? Why did Jesus say no?

 

[Todd520]

The problem is its not from God. In the desert Satan offered good things to Jesus as well. What’s wrong with giving bread to one who is hungry? Why did Jesus say no?

Since none of us are God, are you saying we are like Satan when we try to feed to poor

Giving food to the hungry is not related to tempting someone who is fasting.

 

[Pahoran]

That is not consistent with this LDS teaching:

Actually it is.

Snip standard anti-Mormon prooftexts.

Chester, just so you know: I’ve been involved in LDS apologetics for almost 20 years. In that time, I’ve learned that the set of all people who criticise the Church of Jesus Christ can be divided into two non-intersecting subsets. These are:

1. Those who have made an intellectually honest, good faith attempt to understand what we really do and teach; and
2. Those who play the illegitimate game of “proof by quote mining.”

Just so you know, those who quote from “The Seer” – a repudiated publication – as if it were some kind of authoritative LDS source are always found in the second group.

Always. And without exception.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[stormy99]

Great stuff? No flattery intended as that would be sin.
So many believe that if you are having a hard time it’s your own fault, you did not pray enough, you failed somewhere, not paying your tithing etc…I find this way of thinking to be sinful.

The Apostles followed Jesus and were martyred one by one. In this blessing.

When one is suffering or going through a tough time it may simply be because this is how it is. What we are called to do is come to them in their suffering and love them, be with them. Many of my past prayers have been selfish prayers. My prayers of late have been just to be with God, for others to be with God. Not asking for anything other than His presence. When my prayers are not answered it does not matter. God knows what I want and gives me what I need. Unless I chose to force a wish upon myself. Most the time I know the difference.

**I don’t pray for myself…for others yes…tough times come and go…and some times you think what else could go wrong, only to find out…I don’t do that any more…what I found out is be with God now…not yesterday or worry about tomorrow, but right now.

Answered prayers are illusive at best…God knows us, has known us all of our life, knows what we will do and knows what we need. I feel when we learn this and turn to him…there is a calmness and a certainity in our life. We know which way to point our feet and heart…when I feel myself wandering a bit…I read from the book the Imitation of Christ. Doesn’t take much reading to see which direction needs to be taken and it is never easy…but when I do it…then is when I feel the presence of God and his love,**

Blessing do not come in the form of a better life according to this world. They come in the form of how much time is spent with God. Good times, bad times, terrible times, joyful times it does not matter. When you have His peace in you it does not matter. All prayers are answered, the question is do we listen or talk. the one who made the utube video, he heard some truth. What he does with it is up to him. I have called him because he lives close to me. he has not returned my call. he must think he has something to loose I don’t know.

**The man who made the video? The Mormon correct?

The answer is always listen…you learn when you listen, you learn nothing when you talk…another difficult thing to do at times…perhaps he will call you…perhaps not…

storym**

In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[stormy99]

Stormy,
Thank you for your kindness. I am sincerely sorry that you felt like an outsider in Utah–that happens quite a bit, I’m told, and my reaction is that I don’t feel that the gospel is being lived correctly when those are the genuine feelings people have.

I also feel badly about the experience you had when someone said you weren’t praying hard enough or trying hard enough. I think those were not only the wrong things for them to think, but definitely the precisely incorrect thing to say because as you noted that means they were trying to look into your heart and your thoughts, which they couldn’t possibly do.

So, thanks for forgiving them and for evidently having a forgiving attitude toward your ex-husband, and I hope your children are able to feel that forgiving attitude and enjoy the best he has to offer in his relationship with them. That will be awesome!

Thanks again and God bless always.

**My ex is extremely important to his children…they adore him…they need to know that he is a wonderful person and how much he loves them…he has carte blanche visitation…any time he wants…he can take them anywhere he wants to…and has…and some times I go along. He hasn’t remarried…I smile when he says he’s waiting for me to grow up and come back…he may wait a long time for that…not me to grow up but to come back…it isn’t possible now.

I believe there’s an isolation in Utah and since LDS are in the majority and so is their culture, they don’t always look at the other persons…it happens in other places and religions also, they aren’t the only group to do that…

That said, I did meet wonderful people, caring and considerate people…I still see some of them…couldn’t ask for better friends. It’s an extremely close knit culture, sort of like the Irish Catholic in Boston…I can just imagine how they have acted past and present…not so good…

But I did love the outdoor Utah…so pretty…so much fun…

stormy**

 

[LongJourney]

He is my neighbor. After I watched the video I called him to get together. I told him not so much to evangelize but rather to talk as the spirit would move us. He agreed. I called him again and received a message machine. He never called me back. He did tell me he was a hard headed Mormon. I am under the impression that he loves the good of the people he is around and does not care about all of the problems the Church has with Doctrine etc…

He does have something to lose. His temple recommend means a lot to him, because of his effort to liberalize the LDS faith.

1. Do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; and do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel?

1. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator; and do you recognize him as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

1. Do you sustain the other General Authorities and the local authorities of the Church?

1. Do you live the law of chastity?

1. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

1. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church; to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings; and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

1. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

1. Are you a full-tithe payer?

1. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

1. Have you ever been divorced or are you now separated from your spouse under order of a civil court? If yes, (a) - Are you current in your support payments and other financial obligations for family members, as specified by court order or in other written, binding commitments? (b) Were there any circumstances of transgression in connection
   with your divorce or separation that have not been previously resolved with your bishop?

1. If you have received your temple endowment – (a) Do you keep all the covenants that you made in the temple? (b) Do you wear the authorized garments both day and night?

1. Has there been any sin or misdeed in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but has not?

1. Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances?

lds-mormon.com/veilworker/recommend.shtml

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Chester, that is a red herring. How often did Christ show love toward others? How many times did he act in anger? You have yet to act in anger. Have you demonstrated love? Can each of us demonstrate love more effectively?

This is really a conversation that you need to have with God; maybe even your priest. I am only a poor sinner that bumbles along the way and errs far too often.

I don’t think it is a red herring. I don’t think permissiveness is necessarily loving.

Do you believe Mormonism is a distortion of Christianity?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Actually it is.

Snip standard anti-Mormon prooftexts.

Please address the direct quotes from Mormon sources I have provided and tell us why they are invalid.

Thanks.

 

[Pahoran]

Please address the direct quotes from Mormon sources I have provided and tell us why they are invalid.

Thanks.

They are invalid because – as I rather suspect you realise – they have no official standing in the Church, and are not binding upon the Saints.

And they never were.

In particular, the last one was taken from a publication that was denounced by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, and repudiated by its author.

It is, therefore, never quoted as if it were authoritative by anyone discussing LDS teaching in good faith.

Not anywhere, and not ever.

If you are going to arrogate to yourself the role of telling a believing Latter-day Saint what the Church of Jesus Christ teaches, you need to confine yourself to sources that have official standing in the Church.

Just so you know.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[LutheranDK]

He knows the Church’s doctrine is corrupted yet he remains because he loves his church, the people in it and the lifestyle.

Hmmmm…this case reminds me of something…I wonder what it is…

 

[tbcrawford]

Chester, please don’t confuse the Great Commission or anything like it to the methods you use. Christ taught us the best way to proclaim the his Gospel is through love. To attack, to belittle, and to besmirch another’s faith, church, or religion is an unprofitable process, it is ineffective, and worse, it is not how Christ taught us to teach the gospel. It is through love that God can be seen. It is through love that He is felt. It is through love that we conquer all things.

We may choose to teach the truth to many, but if they do not know we love them and if they cannot see that Jesus is our Lord, then all is for naught. All we will have achieved is forcing others to be defensive and reject all that we say. The stony land is what we will have created and the harvest will be small.

Such wise words.God IS LOVE.The hardest commandment for us is to love one another.To love our neighbour.To truly love one another is not about judging others or attacking but by leading by loving example of faith.No matter what creed or colour or religious belief we are ALL God’s children and He loves each and every one of us"even the hairs on our heads are numbered"Matthew 10:30 & Luke 12:7
Was Jesus himself not friends with the Samaritan & prostitutes? Samaritans were seen as outcasts at the time.

From " wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_were_the_outcasts_in_Jesus’_time - Cached "

[The outcasts in Jesus’ time were the prostitutes, people with sickness, lepers, people who didn’t believe in the main religion, tax collectors, people that had diseases, and people that were unclean.

Jesus healed the blind man on the Sabbath and broke the laws against working by making clay and by healing. Blind people were considered cursed and unclean. Jesus became an outlaw himself when he healed this man.

People were so scared about becoming an outlaw, not being able to show their faces in public, that the parents of a blinded new born avoided seeing the religious leaders about it. Even if someone inside the religious leaders fell sick they would be named a reject and kicked out.

Unlike the public Jesus didn’t think about who was to blame for sicknesses, Jesus only used compassion and did not care of if the public eye called him a reject. People that followed Jesus’ way were also considered outcasts.]

My point is Jesus showed love to ALL He met.He led by loving example.If we are to lead people to Jesus we do it by love for one another and show our faith through our love.
We each have the opportunity to lead our lives in the way Jesus taught us and to make the choices we do.That is in fact our purpose of our being here.

God bless

 

[catholic-rcia]

Hmmmm…this case reminds me of something…I wonder what it is…

Jehovah witnesses? I was thinking the same thing

My Catholic faith has taught me to try and see others as Christ sees them. Tyo remember that we are a fallen people, not built on the fall of another church, as the Catholic Church was built because we are all fallen and have a great need and desire for Jesus. This is why the Crucifix is front and center. It’s the place where all judgments can be shed knowing that we are all in this together whether we get along or not. It’s at the foot of the cross that we can learn to love even those we do not, nor cannot love. So the focus has to be on Jesus. If he is first in all things, with the Sacrament of Confession thrown in the mix, doctrine will remain fully intact as it has for 2000 years.

In Christ
www.utahmission.com