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SemperReformada
Guest
If you don’t mind and Steve doesn’t mind, share the e-mail with us.
- Status
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Pete_Holter
Guest
I just want to clarify for everyone that the Catholic Church does not teach that we can add to Christ’s sacrifice. We cannot and do not add to Christ’s sacrifice.
By the mercies of God, we draw from it. I don’t think SHW meant to say what was actually said in the quote above, but I thought it was worth clarifying.
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
His choice of us is “according to the riches of His grace,” “according to His purpose,” and “not because of works but because of Him Who calls.” (Eph 1:7, 1:9, Rom 9:11). “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” (Rom 9:16). “For it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). “You have indeed done for us all our works” (Isaiah 26:12). “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20). “I toil, struggling with all His energy that He powerfully works within me” (Col 1:29). “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own Master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” “He must increase, but I must decrease …] that God may be all in all” (John 3:30; 1 Cor 15:28). “‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong” (2 Cor 12:8-10). Yes, our confidence is in Him and we “put no confidence in the flesh” (Phil 3:3). Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! (cf. John 15:5). “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all” (John 6:63). “What do you have that you did not receive?” (1 Cor 4:7), “All this is from God,” for “every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (2 Cor. 5:18; James 1:17). “But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me” (1 Cor 15:10), etc.
Our God is powerful!!! This is a salvation to be excited about! This is sovereign and amazing grace!!! It is pure grace!
“After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself” (CCC 2011).
“If only we encase ourselves in the armor of salvation against such a conflict, once we begin to refrain from sinning, we shall little by little blunt the edge of the enemy’s attack and sap his strength; until at length we shall wing our flight to that place of repose, where triumph and boundless joy will be ours. The credit of the victory is to be ascribed solely to the grace of God, which within us gives light to the mind and strength to the will, when we rise superior to so many hindrances and contests. It is the grace of God, We say! For as He created us, so is He able, through the treasures of His wisdom and power, to set aflame and fill our hearts wholly with His love” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani).
“Forasmuch as he is also able to reject [the prevenient grace of God], yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: “Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,” we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer, “Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,” we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God” (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 5).
“We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
“When Catholics say that persons ‘cooperate’ in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification).
Our God is powerful!!! This is a salvation to be excited about! This is sovereign and amazing grace!!! It is pure grace!
“After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself” (CCC 2011).
“If only we encase ourselves in the armor of salvation against such a conflict, once we begin to refrain from sinning, we shall little by little blunt the edge of the enemy’s attack and sap his strength; until at length we shall wing our flight to that place of repose, where triumph and boundless joy will be ours. The credit of the victory is to be ascribed solely to the grace of God, which within us gives light to the mind and strength to the will, when we rise superior to so many hindrances and contests. It is the grace of God, We say! For as He created us, so is He able, through the treasures of His wisdom and power, to set aflame and fill our hearts wholly with His love” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani).
“Forasmuch as he is also able to reject [the prevenient grace of God], yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: “Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,” we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer, “Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,” we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God” (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 5).
“We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
“When Catholics say that persons ‘cooperate’ in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification).
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Pete_Holter
Guest
These quotes from St. Augustine address a variety of questions raised in this thread…
“Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“When, therefore, God’s children say of those who had not perseverance, ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us,’ and add, ‘Because if they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us,’ what else do they say than that they were not children, even when they were in the profession and name of children? Not because they simulated righteousness, but because they did not continue in it. For he does not say, ‘For if they had been of us, they would assuredly have maintained a real and not a feigned righteousness with us;’ but he says, ‘If they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us.’ Beyond a doubt, he wished them to continue in goodness. Therefore they were in goodness” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in this mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated? Because it is necessary that in this condition that should be kept hidden… on account of the usefulness of this secrecy, it must be believed that some of the children of perdition, who have not received the gift of perseverance to the end, begin to live in the faith which worketh by love, and live for some time faithfully and righteously, and afterwards fall away, and are not taken away from this life before this happens to them. If this had happened to none of these, men would have that very wholesome fear, by which the sin of presumption is kept down, only so long as until they should attain to the grace of Christ by which to live piously, and afterwards would for time to come be secure that they would never fall away from Him. And such presumption in this condition of trials is not fitting, where there is so great weakness, that security may engender pride” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“It is not, then, to be doubted that men’s wills cannot, so as to prevent His doing what he wills, withstand the will of God, ‘who hath done all things whatsoever He pleased in heaven and in earth,’ and who also ‘has done those things that are to come;’ since He does even concerning the wills themselves of men what He will, when He will” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, predestinating us to the adoption of children, not because we were going to be of ourselves holy and immaculate, but He chose and predestinated us that we might be so. Moreover, He did this according to the good pleasure of His will, so that nobody might glory concerning his own will, but about God’s will towards himself. He did this according to the riches of His grace, according to His good-will, which He purposed in His beloved Son; in whom we have obtained a share, being predestinated according to the purpose, not ours, but His, who works all things to such an extent as that He works in us to will also. Moreover, He works according to the counsel of His will, that we may be to the praise of His glory. Philippians 2:13 For this reason it is that we cry that no one should glory in man, and, thus, not in himself; but whoever glories let him glory in the Lord, that he may be for the praise of His glory” (St. Augustine, The Predestination of the Saints).
“And yet this doctrine must not be preached to congregations in such a way as to seem to an unskilled multitude, or a people of slower understanding, to be in some measure confuted by that very preaching of it. Just as even the foreknowledge of God, which certainly men cannot deny, seems to be refuted if it be said to them, ‘Whether you run or sleep, you shall be that which He who cannot be deceived has foreknown you to be.’ And it is the part of a deceitful or an unskilled physician so to compound even a useful medicament, that it either does no good or does harm. But it must be said, ‘So run that you may lay hold; and thus by your very running you may know yourselves to be foreknown as those who should run lawfully:’ and in whatever other manner the foreknowledge of God may be so preached, that the slothfulness of man may be repulsed” (St. Augustine, The Gift of Perseverance).
“Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“When, therefore, God’s children say of those who had not perseverance, ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us,’ and add, ‘Because if they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us,’ what else do they say than that they were not children, even when they were in the profession and name of children? Not because they simulated righteousness, but because they did not continue in it. For he does not say, ‘For if they had been of us, they would assuredly have maintained a real and not a feigned righteousness with us;’ but he says, ‘If they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us.’ Beyond a doubt, he wished them to continue in goodness. Therefore they were in goodness” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in this mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated? Because it is necessary that in this condition that should be kept hidden… on account of the usefulness of this secrecy, it must be believed that some of the children of perdition, who have not received the gift of perseverance to the end, begin to live in the faith which worketh by love, and live for some time faithfully and righteously, and afterwards fall away, and are not taken away from this life before this happens to them. If this had happened to none of these, men would have that very wholesome fear, by which the sin of presumption is kept down, only so long as until they should attain to the grace of Christ by which to live piously, and afterwards would for time to come be secure that they would never fall away from Him. And such presumption in this condition of trials is not fitting, where there is so great weakness, that security may engender pride” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“It is not, then, to be doubted that men’s wills cannot, so as to prevent His doing what he wills, withstand the will of God, ‘who hath done all things whatsoever He pleased in heaven and in earth,’ and who also ‘has done those things that are to come;’ since He does even concerning the wills themselves of men what He will, when He will” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, predestinating us to the adoption of children, not because we were going to be of ourselves holy and immaculate, but He chose and predestinated us that we might be so. Moreover, He did this according to the good pleasure of His will, so that nobody might glory concerning his own will, but about God’s will towards himself. He did this according to the riches of His grace, according to His good-will, which He purposed in His beloved Son; in whom we have obtained a share, being predestinated according to the purpose, not ours, but His, who works all things to such an extent as that He works in us to will also. Moreover, He works according to the counsel of His will, that we may be to the praise of His glory. Philippians 2:13 For this reason it is that we cry that no one should glory in man, and, thus, not in himself; but whoever glories let him glory in the Lord, that he may be for the praise of His glory” (St. Augustine, The Predestination of the Saints).
“And yet this doctrine must not be preached to congregations in such a way as to seem to an unskilled multitude, or a people of slower understanding, to be in some measure confuted by that very preaching of it. Just as even the foreknowledge of God, which certainly men cannot deny, seems to be refuted if it be said to them, ‘Whether you run or sleep, you shall be that which He who cannot be deceived has foreknown you to be.’ And it is the part of a deceitful or an unskilled physician so to compound even a useful medicament, that it either does no good or does harm. But it must be said, ‘So run that you may lay hold; and thus by your very running you may know yourselves to be foreknown as those who should run lawfully:’ and in whatever other manner the foreknowledge of God may be so preached, that the slothfulness of man may be repulsed” (St. Augustine, The Gift of Perseverance).
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
Sorry everyone…
I posted on the wrong thread.
May the Lord be with you!
I posted on the wrong thread.
May the Lord be with you!
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
An interesting book to read that is germane to this topic is Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up, A New Look at Today’s Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity, by David W. Bercot.
In it he tells of his discovery of the early Chrisitan writers (aka Early Church Fathers) and what they believed. I think this book is an excellent introduction to who the early Christian writers were.
Some chapter titles are:
Who Were the Early Christians?
Why They Succeeded When We Often Fail
What They Believed About Salvation
What They Believed About Predestination and Free Will
What Baptism Meant to the Early Christians
Who Better Understand the Apostles?
Were the Teachings of the Apostles Deliberately Altered?
Bercot is not a Catholic and another chapter is
How Early Christianity Was Destroyed
(nothing new here)
This book is very readable and was my introduction to the early Christian writers. It is available from Scroll Publishers or Amazon.
In it he tells of his discovery of the early Chrisitan writers (aka Early Church Fathers) and what they believed. I think this book is an excellent introduction to who the early Christian writers were.
Some chapter titles are:
Who Were the Early Christians?
Why They Succeeded When We Often Fail
What They Believed About Salvation
What They Believed About Predestination and Free Will
What Baptism Meant to the Early Christians
Who Better Understand the Apostles?
Were the Teachings of the Apostles Deliberately Altered?
Bercot is not a Catholic and another chapter is
How Early Christianity Was Destroyed
(nothing new here)
This book is very readable and was my introduction to the early Christian writers. It is available from Scroll Publishers or Amazon.
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Maybe you sodak have a hard time seeing your screen; I said the arbitrator of Scripture is the Holy Spirit. You twist other peoples words in the same way you do Scripture for your own agenda. What about what Peter would think???I saw that, but I did not find it amusing. I find it sad, and offensive. Then I read NonCatholic’s post about how he has been made the Arbitor of Scripture by the Holy Spirit, and I realized that the Pope’s clothing many not be fancy enough to dignify that office! Non may need something even higher falutin’.
N
NonCatholic
Guest
I would start with an understanding of the Bible and this way one can discern truth from error. But, unless one has received the Holy Spirit, then all the reading in the world will be of no avail.
N
NonCatholic
Guest
At what point/period are you “justified” before God? In your understanding, how is justification in relation to sanctification? I’m asking because I’m trying to understand where you are coming from…I saw you profile is Catholic.His choice of us is “according to the riches of His grace,” “according to His purpose,” and “not because of works but because of Him Who calls.” (Eph 1:7, 1:9, Rom 9:11). “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” (Rom 9:16). “For it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). “You have indeed done for us all our works” (Isaiah 26:12). “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20). “I toil, struggling with all His energy that He powerfully works within me” (Col 1:29). “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own Master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” “He must increase, but I must decrease …] that God may be all in all” (John 3:30; 1 Cor 15:28). “‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong” (2 Cor 12:8-10). Yes, our confidence is in Him and we “put no confidence in the flesh” (Phil 3:3). Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! (cf. John 15:5). “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all” (John 6:63). “What do you have that you did not receive?” (1 Cor 4:7), “All this is from God,” for “every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (2 Cor. 5:18; James 1:17). “But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me” (1 Cor 15:10), etc.
Our God is powerful!!! This is a salvation to be excited about! This is sovereign and amazing grace!!! It is pure grace!
“After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself” (CCC 2011).
“If only we encase ourselves in the armor of salvation against such a conflict, once we begin to refrain from sinning, we shall little by little blunt the edge of the enemy’s attack and sap his strength; until at length we shall wing our flight to that place of repose, where triumph and boundless joy will be ours. The credit of the victory is to be ascribed solely to the grace of God, which within us gives light to the mind and strength to the will, when we rise superior to so many hindrances and contests. It is the grace of God, We say! For as He created us, so is He able, through the treasures of His wisdom and power, to set aflame and fill our hearts wholly with His love” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani).
“Forasmuch as he is also able to reject [the prevenient grace of God], yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: “Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,” we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer, “Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,” we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God” (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 5).
“We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
“When Catholics say that persons ‘cooperate’ in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification).
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
First, a definition:
“Justification is a translation from that state in which a man is born a child of Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.”
Good so far? Okay.
Next, it is important to understand that Catholics speak of initial justification, progressive justification and final justification. We also speak of “re-justification” for those who have lost their justification through mortal sin.
Now to answer your question directly: We become Christians and are first justified when we repent, believe and receive baptism. Baptism is not an afterthought; it is essential to salvation itself for scripture tells us, “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death” (Romans 6:3) and “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)
The translation of initial justification occurs when we are baptized into Christ.
G
guanophore
Guest
We must add ourselves to it. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, but the whole world is not being saved, because people do not choose to add themselves to His sacrifice.I just want to clarify for everyone that the Catholic Church does not teach that we can add to Christ’s sacrifice. We cannot and do not add to Christ’s sacrifice.
Christ’s sacrifice is entirely efficacious, but we can only benefit from it if we add ourselves. this means, as has been said, picking up our cross, and following HIm, obeying His commandments.
We also add our sufferings, contributing them on behalf of the Church.
“I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.” Col 1:24
G
guanophore
Guest
Great posts though!Sorry everyone…
I posted on the wrong thread.
May the Lord be with you!
And not too far off topic.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Regarding Bible understanding, Bercot makes this commentary:
"We Bible-believing Christians today generally think that we are following apostolic Christianity. The early Christians thought they were, too. Yet, as we’ve seen, our beliefs and practices vary considerably from theirs. So how can we know which one of us is more closely following the pattern set by the apostles?
"A tempting but simplistic solution is to say, ‘Let’s simply compare their beliefs and ours to what the Bible teaches.’ The problem is that the early Christians based their beliefs on the Bible–the same as we do. They quoted the Scriptures to support their beliefs, the same as we do. The most we can do is to compare their interpretations of Scripture with our interpretations of Scripture. And that in itself doesn’t prove very much.
“So the question becomes: Whose interpretation is more likely to be correct–ours or theirs?”
Yes, I would not disagree with the statement that unless one has received the Holy Spirit all the reading in the world is of no avail.
However, a conundrum arises in that to learn of the Holy Spirit, and then to receive Him, you need to have first read. But you can’t understand what you read until you have received the Holy Spirit! Your reading is of no avail!
Sounds like a catch-22.
G
guanophore
Guest
Actually, you didn’t. The other member asked you when you became the Arbitor, and you responded “when I received the HS”. However, I am glad that I misunderstood. I thought it was quite presumptuous.
Actually, I don’t have an "agenda’ for your scripture reading,Non. I was promoting to you the Apostolic agenda, which was to read it from the point of view that it was written. That is Catholic.
Peter understood that Jesus gave him the care and feeding of the sheep. He understood that Jesus wanted unity, and that all were to be obedient to the authority appointed by Christ.
Here is what Peter had to say about those who “despise authority”:
2 Peter 2:4-10
"For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he saved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood on a world of the ungodly; 6 and if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example of what is coming to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the lawless 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by their lawless deeds that he saw and heard), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment 10 — **especially those who **indulge their flesh in depraved lust, and who despise authority.
The authority to “arbitrate” scripture was given to the Apostles, adn their successors, the bishops.
I wish this were true. If it were, the Church would have perfect unity. There would be no “denominations”.
This is not accurate either. Many people read the Bible as a historical and cultural document. Archaeologists and historians use it for research.
However, I agree that your statement does apply to spiritual growth.
Baptism.
1 Cor 6:11
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
We cannot be made into the image and likeness of Christ until we are in right relationship to HIm. Once we are, we are obligated to grow into that daily.
Actions, based in grace through faith, continue to justify us.
James 2:23-26
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.
Our works of righteousness, prepared beforehand that we should walk in them, perfect our faith.
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
Thanks, Guanophore! May the LORD be with you!
However, this is not adding to Christ’s sacrifice.
“For, whoever suffers in union with Christ— just as the Apostle Paul bears his ‘tribulations’ in union with Christ— not only receives from Christ that strength already referred to but also ‘completes’ by his suffering ‘what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.’ This evangelical outlook especially highlights the truth concerning the creative character of suffering. The sufferings of Christ created the good of the world’s redemption. This good in itself is inexhaustible and infinite. No man can add anything to it [emphasis added]. But at the same time, in the mystery of the Church as his Body, Christ has in a sense opened his own redemptive suffering to all human suffering. In so far as man becomes a sharer in Christ’s sufferings—in any part of the world and at any time in history—to that extent he in his own way completes the suffering through which Christ accomplished the Redemption of the world.
“Does this mean that the Redemption achieved by Christ is not complete? No. It only means that the Redemption, accomplished through satisfactory love, remains always open to all love expressed in human suffering. In this dimension—the dimension of love—the Redemption which has already been completely accomplished is, in a certain sense, constantly being accomplished. Christ achieved the Redemption completely and to the very limits but at the same time he did not bring it to a close. In this redemptive suffering, through which the Redemption of the world was accomplished, Christ opened himself from the beginning to every human suffering and constantly does so. Yes, it seems to be part of the very essence of Christ’s redemptive suffering that this suffering requires to be unceasingly completed” (John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris).
N
NonCatholic
Guest
:banghead:
uch:
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
Hi NonCatholic! I would have said it differently, but Randy Carson explained the Catholic understanding very well.
And I think that this is actually the crux of the issue. For Christians who do not believe in baptismal regeneration, regeneration is a secret act of God that no one can verify except by the effects. And there are no objective criteria that can be evaluated to determine whether this has taken place because they can all be feigned by the unregenerate. Consequently, if someone falls away, a Christian not believing in baptismal regeneration may be led to think that the fall-away was never born from above in the first place.
Catholics, however, do not enjoy this liberty. The Catholic Christian understanding is that regeneration takes place in baptism, and so we have an objectively verifiable event by which to determine when a person is born again. Because of this, when a baptized person falls away, Catholics must believe that, although the fall-away was truly born again and constituted a Christian, yet he is a brother who has succumbed to sin that leads to death.
And so it may be that if we Catholics can establish the truth of baptismal regeneration to your satisfaction, then, upon seeing baptized people falling away, you will be compelled to believe that Christians can lose their salvation.
I look forward to one day calling you, NowCatholic.
May the grace of Christ be with you!
Pete
P
Pete_Holter
Guest
Oh, and the relationship between sanctification and justification… I believe that the Church teaches that we are justified insofar as we are sanctified. And so this is what I believe.
Understanding by the words, “counted to him as righteousness,” the external imputation of Christ’s righteousness fails for me because these same words are used in Psalm 106 regarding Phinehas’ righteous deed: “Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was stayed. And that was counted to him as righteousness from generation to generation forever” (vv 30-31).
When I put these two texts together, the only thing that makes sense to me is to believe that the righteousness that is “counted” to us is a work of God in us, an infused righteousness.
Also, there is much debate about James 2. But for the Catholic, this is a settled case. We do not have to wonder what James is saying because we have other Scripture to interpret for us the words that he uses, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God” (vv. 22-23). What does it mean “completed by his works” and “the Scripture was fulfilled”? For Catholics, it means that Abraham was “found faithful *when tested, and it was counted to him as righteousness? *” (1 Macc 2:52; cf. Heb 11:17: “By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac…”). When was Abraham’s faith counted to him as righteousness? When he offered up his beloved son! And so we necessarily conclude that, for James, justification unto salvation is in view.
According to Hebrews 11, the faith of Abraham was pleasing to God when “he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise” (vv 8-9). If justification is a one-time event, then this poses a serious dilemma. Catholic apologists often point this out, and I think that it is a good point to make. These verses are describing Abraham’s condition in Genesis chapter 12. But the justification of Abraham that Paul picks up on in Romans 4 deals with his state in Genesis chapter 15. How could he be living by a faith that is held out to Christians as one commended to us if he was not already justified by that faith in Genesis 12? And yet, if justification is a one-time event, then he was not justified until Genesis 15. This strongly suggests to me, if not proves, that Abraham grew in his justification before God, from Genesis 12 forward, as he offered his “members to God as instruments for righteousness” and became a slave “of obedience, which leads to righteousness” (Rom 6:13; 16). All of this of course being “the free gift of God”! (Rom 6:23)
All of these passages suggest to me that justification is a process over the course of our lives, and that the basis of this justification is “the righteousness of God that depends on faith” (Phil 3:9) that God works in us: “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col 1:27).
With the love of Christ,
Pete
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Cute.:banghead:
Rather than simply posting stupid emoticons, why don’t you actually interact with the material presented.
Let me make this easy…just answer this question: What is wrong with what I posted concerning justification?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
:clapping:Oh, and the relationship between sanctification and justification… I believe that the Church teaches that we are justified insofar as we are sanctified. And so this is what I believe.
Understanding by the words, “counted to him as righteousness,” the external imputation of Christ’s righteousness fails for me because these same words are used in Psalm 106 regarding Phinehas’ righteous deed: “Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was stayed. And that was counted to him as righteousness from generation to generation forever” (vv 30-31).
When I put these two texts together, the only thing that makes sense to me is to believe that the righteousness that is “counted” to us is a work of God in us, an infused righteousness.
Also, there is much debate about James 2. But for the Catholic, this is a settled case. We do not have to wonder what James is saying because we have other Scripture to interpret for us the words that he uses, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God” (vv. 22-23). What does it mean “completed by his works” and “the Scripture was fulfilled”? For Catholics, it means that Abraham was “found faithful *when tested, and it was counted to him as righteousness? *” (1 Macc 2:52; cf. Heb 11:17: “By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac…”). When was Abraham’s faith counted to him as righteousness? When he offered up his beloved son! And so we necessarily conclude that, for James, justification unto salvation is in view.
According to Hebrews 11, the faith of Abraham was pleasing to God when “he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise” (vv 8-9). If justification is a one-time event, then this poses a serious dilemma. Catholic apologists often point this out, and I think that it is a good point to make. These verses are describing Abraham’s condition in Genesis chapter 12. But the justification of Abraham that Paul picks up on in Romans 4 deals with his state in Genesis chapter 15. How could he be living by a faith that is held out to Christians as one commended to us if he was not already justified by that faith in Genesis 12? And yet, if justification is a one-time event, then he was not justified until Genesis 15. This strongly suggests to me, if not proves, that Abraham grew in his justification before God, from Genesis 12 forward, as he offered his “members to God as instruments for righteousness” and became a slave “of obedience, which leads to righteousness” (Rom 6:13; 16). All of this of course being “the free gift of God”! (Rom 6:23)
All of these passages suggest to me that justification is a process over the course of our lives, and that the basis of this justification is “the righteousness of God that depends on faith” (Phil 3:9) that God works in us: “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col 1:27).
With the love of Christ,
Pete
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