Someone can lose their salvation?

[guanophore]

This post was found on a thread that is now closed. It seemed more approriate to this topic anyway:

seeking12:

There is no place in Scripture that states someone can be blotted out of the Book of Life. Is this a Catholic teaching? Doesn’t the Book of Life contain the names of the elect predestined before the foundation of the world?

Why do you suppose Jesus would refer to his intention not to do so, if it were not possible?

Rev 3:4-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

 

[eichenb2]

This is what the Apostles’ taught was a “mature” attitude about salvation:

Phil 3:12-16

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

I always amazed me that some people could hold such forensic justication beliefs when it is clearly not supported by the Biblical text. It gets stranger, though, when they insist on Sola Scriptura and the Bible says to follow traditions too. See 2 Thess. 2:15.

 

[guanophore]

I always amazed me that some people could hold such forensic justication beliefs when it is clearly not supported by the Biblical text. It gets stranger, though, when they insist on Sola Scriptura and the Bible says to follow traditions too. See 2 Thess. 2:15.

This is the kind of error that results from trying to interpet the Holy Scripture apart from the Sacred tradition that produced it.

The Reformers failed to keep this Apostolic command:

2 Tim 1:13-14
13 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; 14 guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

They departed from the sound pattern, and abandoned the Truth that was entrusted to the Church, creating one of their own to replace it. In the process, they lost the truth that salvation is not attained in this life.

 

[Seeking12]

This post was found on a thread that is now closed. It seemed more approriate to this topic anyway:

Why do you suppose Jesus would refer to his intention not to do so, if it were not possible?

Rev 3:4-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Some people point to Revelation 3:5 as “proof” that a person can lose his salvation. However, the promise of Revelation 3:5 is clearly that the Lord will not erase a name: “He who overcomes . . . I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life.” An overcomer is one who is victorious over the temptations, trials, and evils of this world—in other words, one who is redeemed. The saved are written in God’s registry and have the promise of eternal security.

Revelation 20:15 declares, “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” The Book of Life is the set of names of those who will live with God forever in heaven. It is the roll of those who are saved. This Book of Life is also mentioned in Revelation 20:12; and Philippians 4:3. The same book is also called the Lamb’s Book of Life because it contains the names of those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus (Revelation 13:8; 21:27).

How can you be sure your name is written in the Book of Life? Be sure you’re saved. Repent of sin and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior (Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5). Once your name is written in the Book of Life, it is never erased (Revelation 3:5; Romans 8:37-39). No true believer should doubt his eternal security in Christ (John 10:28-30).

The Great White Throne Judgment described in Revelation 20:11-15 is a judgment for unbelievers. That passage makes it clear that no one at that judgment has his name in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:12-14). Since their names are not in the Book of Life, their fate is sealed, their punishment is sure.

 

[Seeking12]

This is what the Apostles’ taught was a “mature” attitude about salvation:

Phil 3:12-16

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

If I am reading this dialogue correctly, you are mixing justification, a legal term where the Judge, not only says you are not guilty, but also will allow you from that point forward to enter His rest, with sanctification. Paul’s goal is glorification, which is why he says he has not obtained “it” yet; he is still alive on earth and in the sanctification process. What hasn’t he obtained yet? Surely Paul is already justified before God; so what has he not obtained? It is the final step, which is glorification, which will not happen until God is ready to call Him home. As you mature in your walk; this will become more evident.

 

[guanophore]

Some people point to Revelation 3:5 as “proof” that a person can lose his salvation.

Really? I don’t think Scripture is intended to be used as “proof text”. Nor is it to be the source of doctrine.

However, the promise of Revelation 3:5 is clearly that the Lord will not erase a name: “He who overcomes . . . I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life.”   An overcomer is one who is victorious over the temptations, trials, and evils of this world—in other words, one who is redeemed. The saved are written in God’s registry and have the promise of eternal security.

This is what you have been taught to believe, but this, and other scriptures (look at the beginning of this thread) testify to the contrary. You did not answer my question. Why would Jesus imply that this is possible, if it is not?

Revelation 20:15 declares, “If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” The Book of Life is the set of names of those who will live with God forever in heaven. It is the roll of those who are saved. This Book of Life is also mentioned in Revelation 20:12; and Philippians 4:3. The same book is also called the Lamb’s Book of Life because it contains the names of those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus (Revelation 13:8; 21:27).

I agree. And such list is subject to blotting.

How can you be sure your name is written in the Book of Life? Be sure you’re saved. Repent of sin and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior (Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5). Once your name is written in the Book of Life, it is never erased (Revelation 3:5; Romans 8:37-39).

This is an insupportable assertion.

No true believer should doubt his eternal security in Christ (John 10:28-30).

This is also a concept not found in scripture. Neither is the modifier “true” believer.

The Great White Throne Judgment described in Revelation 20:11-15 is a judgment for unbelievers. That passage makes it clear that no one at that judgment has his name in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:12-14). Since their names are not in the Book of Life, their fate is sealed, their punishment is sure.

Yes, but that still does not answer my question.

 

[eichenb2]

If I am reading this dialogue correctly, you are mixing justification, a legal term where the Judge, not only says you are not guilty, but also will allow you from that point forward to enter His rest, with sanctification. Paul’s goal is glorification, which is why he says he has not obtained “it” yet; he is still alive on earth and in the sanctification process. What hasn’t he obtained yet? Surely Paul is already justified before God; so what has he not obtained? It is the final step, which is glorification, which will not happen until God is ready to call Him home. As you mature in your walk; this will become more evident.

This viewpoint was superimposed on the text by reformers like Jean Calvin. Where do you find this paradigm in the Biblical text? As for me, I am going to stick with 2000 years of Church Tradition on this teaching. Also, this viewpoint renders our works of Charity pointless, which would mean that Christ was untrue in saying that anyone who follows Him must take his cross and follow Him. For you Sola Scriptura people. —> St. James 2:17 & 24
sic et fides si non habeat opera mortua est in semet ipsam

So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

videtis quoniam ex operibus iustificatur homo et non ex fide tantum

Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

 

[guanophore]

If I am reading this dialogue correctly, you are mixing justification, a legal term where the Judge, not only says you are not guilty, but also will allow you from that point forward to enter His rest, with sanctification. Paul’s goal is glorification, which is why he says he has not obtained “it” yet; he is still alive on earth and in the sanctification process. What hasn’t he obtained yet? Surely Paul is already justified before God; so what has he not obtained? It is the final step, which is glorification, which will not happen until God is ready to call Him home. As you mature in your walk; this will become more evident.

Yes, I agree. The Apostles, however, do not separate these from one another.Salvation includes all three, and is not complete without all of them fulfilled. That is why we say there are some aspects of our salvation that are completed in the past, some that are being worked out in the present, and some that will be completed at the end of this life. As long as we are in this life, we can be cut off from the vine.

 

[Matariel]

If I am reading this dialogue correctly, you are mixing justification, a legal term where the Judge, not only says you are not guilty, but also will allow you from that point forward to enter His rest, with sanctification.

Um, Justification and sanctification are two sides of the same coin. Everyone in Heaven is justified and sanctified 100%.

 

[Seeking12]

Really? I don’t think Scripture is intended to be used as “proof text”. Nor is it to be the source of doctrine.

That’s a dangerous view of God.

This is what you have been taught to believe, but this, and other scriptures (look at the beginning of this thread) testify to the contrary. You did not answer my question. Why would Jesus imply that this is possible, if it is not? The Bible says the names were written before the foundation of the world-predestined; does God change His mind? See Revelation 13:8 & 17:8 i think Ephesians 1:4 says it best: "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"

I agree. And such list is subject to blotting.

This is an insupportable assertion.

Is this you speaking or are you speaking on behalf of your Church teaching? Read the passages of support; it is crystal clear unless you do not believe what God has said.

This is also a concept not found in scripture. Neither is the modifier “true” believer.

Have you ever read 1 John? John states the very reason for writing. 1John 13-14a"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence which we have before Him" Do you not believe God or the Bible is inspired by God?

Yes, but that still does not answer my question.

 

[Seeking12]

Um, Justification and sanctification are two sides of the same coin. Everyone in Heaven is justified and sanctified 100%.

**
That is not the issue; justification happens a point in time; like a flash of lightning; sanctification begins at the same pint, but continues until glorification. There are many good examples of justification as a single point in time granted as a gift by God. The more familiar is the thief on the cross and the tax collector and the Pharisee praying. What are you taught in your Church?**

 

[guanophore]

That’s a dangerous view of God.

What has misusing the Scripture got to do with my view of God? How is refusing to accept the Apostolic faith a dangerous view of God?

The Bible says the names were written before the foundation of the world-predestined; does God change His mind? See Revelation 13:8 & 17:8 i think Ephesians 1:4 says it best: "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"

God can change His mind. But in this case, He gives us the choice. He will blot out our names, if we so desire. What He desires is fellowship in love, not puppets.

Is this you speaking or are you speaking on behalf of your Church teaching? Read the passages of support; it is crystal clear unless you do not believe what God has said.

It is my goal here to represent the Church teaching. I don’t doubt that the passages that support your view are "crystal clear’ in your mind. However, this is not what we have receieved from the Apostles.

Have you ever read 1 John? John states the very reason for writing. 1John 13-14a"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence which we have before Him" Do you not believe God or the Bible is inspired by God?

Indeed! I do not find all your interpretations of it to be so.

**
That is not the issue; justification happens a point in time; like a flash of lightning; sanctification begins at the same pint, but continues until glorification. There are many good examples of justification as a single point in time granted as a gift by God. The more familiar is the thief on the cross and the tax collector and the Pharisee praying. What are you taught in your Church?**

This is true, but there are also other times when we are justified. James’ treatment of the faith of Abraham makes it clear that he was justified more than one time. Jesus says that we are also justified by our deeds.

However, Catholics distinguish these from “initial” justification that occurs at the moment we are put in right relationship with God. Have you ever read the catechism?

 

[Seeking12]

Yes, I agree. The Apostles, however, do not separate these from one another.Salvation includes all three, and is not complete without all of them fulfilled. That is why we say there are some aspects of our salvation that are completed in the past, some that are being worked out in the present, and some that will be completed at the end of this life. As long as we are in this life, we can be cut off from the vine.

**I guess that depends on the definition of salvation. If salvation is going to heaven, the we could stop at justification. But salvation viewed as a process of justified, sanctified, then glorified. The end result is you will be in heaven under either scenario. Both example exist in Scripture; the thief on the cross on one end and Paul on the other; both views are correct.

The Bible speaks of “working out your salvation”; this is the sanctification aspect of the salvation process. Paul speaks of running the race and winning; again Paul has already been justified; so if he comes in last, so to speak, he will still be in heaven, but his rewards in heaven will be little to nothing (although heaven is obviously it’s own reward). All sanctification is; is the process God uses on earth to have us conformed more and more to Jesus image and to do the works He preordained that we should walk in.**

 

[guanophore]

I guess that depends on the definition of salvation. If salvation is going to heaven, the we could stop at justification. But salvation viewed as a process of justified, sanctified, then glorified. The end result is you will be in heaven under either scenario. Both example exist in Scripture; the thief on the cross on one end and Paul on the other; both views are correct.

Yes, I agree about the definition. Salvation is about going to heaven, but it is also about the here and now. He wants to save us in this present world as well, to keep us from stumbling.

I agree that heaven is the end result. I would say that the thief just departed before he had a chance to do most of the works that God had prepared beforehand, that he should walk in them. Yet, he was justified by grace, through faith.
Seeking12;4816196:

The Bible speaks of “working out your salvation”; this is the sanctification aspect of the salvation process. Paul speaks of running the race and winning; again Paul has already been justified; so if he comes in last, so to speak, he will still be in heaven, but his rewards in heaven will be little to nothing (although heaven is obviously it’s own reward). All sanctification is; is the process God uses on earth to have us conformed more and more to Jesus image and to do the works He preordained that we should walk in.

Paul also speaks about not finishing the race, not winning the prize, getting disqualifed, cut off, not spared, thrown into the fire, etc.

 

[ncgolf]

That is not the issue; justification happens a point in time; like a flash of lightning; sanctification begins at the same pint, but continues until glorification.

This is not quite the Catholic view of justification. There is an initial justification … normally for most Catholics this happens at baptism. We are fully justified and are able to receive sanctifying grace.

However, in our fallen state we do fall into sin thus the restoration of our justification falls to another sacrament of the Church, that of Reconciliation. Reconciliation can be thought of as a reconversion … a turning back to God after our turning back on him … the ability to do this is a grace.

This forgiveness of sins restores the grace of justification, opens us up to sanctifying grace and by God’s grace strengthens us … as Paul puts in “the race”.

 

[Seeking12]

This is not quite the Catholic view of justification. There is an initial justification … normally for most Catholics this happens at baptism. We are fully justified and are able to receive sanctifying grace.

However, in our fallen state we do fall into sin thus the restoration of our justification falls to another sacrament of the Church, that of Reconciliation. Reconciliation can be thought of as a reconversion … a turning back to God after our turning back on him … the ability to do this is a grace.

This forgiveness of sins restores the grace of justification, opens us up to sanctifying grace and by God’s grace strengthens us … as Paul puts in “the race”.

Does God concern Himself as to when a man thinks it happens? Is God a respecter of “sacraments”? Does He work your way or His way? If you do not have the justification correct; would that be another gospel? The real question is; have you ever compared that teaching, assuming you are correct on the Catholic teaching on that, with what the Scripture actually says?

 

[ncgolf]

Does God concern Himself as to when a man thinks it happens?

God concerns Himself in all aspects of our lives but I do not “think” it happens … I know it happens though the event leaves one looking exactly the same … does not a baptized/unbaptized person look the same? Can you tell a justified or unjustified person by looking at them? I think not so my “thinking” about it is irrelevant … it is by faith that I believe this. My thinking about it does nothing to add or subtract from the truth.

Is God a respecter of “sacraments”?

Sacraments are “a” means … a known means of receiving God’s grace. Though God may give grace to whom and when He wants outside of the Sacraments … it is by His revelation that they do exist in the form used by Catholics. It is not hidden. Why would you not think grace could be received in this manner?

Does He work your way or His way?

Why would you ask such a judgmental question? I follow the the teachings handed down from the Apostles so you can categorize that any which way you want.

If you do not have the justification correct; would that be another gospel?

If my understanding of the Catholic view is deficient … I will learn … I am not teaching another gospel only explaining in my limited capacity what the Catholic Church teaches.
If a Catholic explains the teachings of the Church deficiently how does that diminish the true teaching of the Church. Are you familiar with the Catholic understanding of justification … not your own view but the Catholic understanding.

The real question is; have you ever compared that teaching, assuming you are correct on the Catholic teaching on that, with what the Scripture actually says

I know what Scripture says … and I understand there are other interpretations on the timing of and understanding of justifaction and salvation … particularly of how Paul speaks about it.

I find these types of responses all the time in this forum … the insinuation that Catholics are deficient in their understanding of Scripture and if there were properly informed they would change their mind in a heartbeat.

I have found no discrepency between the Catholic understanding of those subjects and Scripture.

 

[moondweller]

I have found no discrepency between the Catholic understanding of those subjects and Scripture.

If this was true you wouldn’t have to insert the word “initial” before justification and salvation to conform to your position.

 

[ncgolf]

If this was true you wouldn’t have to insert the word “initial” before justification and salvation to conform to your position.

We are born unjustified … is that not true so the first of anything is initial is it not, unless you were born justified? This is only the beginning of the Christian life … the first breaths as one who is grafted unto Christ … made part of His body.

What changes if this word if removed from the way we use it? Nothing … we are justified (forgiven of original sin amongst other things) at baptism … though the grace of justification in this state is affected by personal sin only … we can tear and damage our relationship with Jesus with sin … the stain of the original sin is removed … thus now we have only ourselves to blame.

Remaining justified is the taking up on one’s cross … bearing a piece of the burden from sin … but oh … you don’t have any responsibility.

I personally believe that what was laid on the Savior, once for all, cannot be laid back on me, the believer.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller to continue

I’m not denying any of what you say. I am just pointing out that you stop half way in the message. You still need to demonstrate your faith through works. As we have discussed, you can call this salvation by works if it makes you feel better, but its not salvation by works ALONE.

Sure it is. If you can’t be saved except by the demonstration of works, then you are saved by works alone. Works, as a means for salvation, cancel out both faith and grace.

We believe that sanctificying grace became available through baptism only after Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross opened up Heaven.

So the cross was merely the way God opened up (or, made available) heaven? Not a solution for sin?

Come on Moondweller, same discussion as above. While we believe that simply SAYING you believe in Jesus’s sacrifice is insufficient for salvation and that you need to DEMONSTRATE that faith through works, we still believe that without the Cross there would be NO salvation because it provides sanctifying grace,

But not a solution for sin.

Because Christ cross opened up heaven and made baptism for the reception of sanctifying grace possible.

But not the divine solution for sin.

I’ve said it three times in a row now, Do you understand?

I do.

Please, St. Paul was Catholic.

No, my friend, Paul wasn’t “Catholic.” He knew nothing of “initial” salvation or "initial" justification. He preached the word of the cross not as a means for “sanctifying grace” in order to be saved by works, but the divine solution for sin, once for all, for those who believe:1 Cor 1:21-24 “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”