Someone can lose their salvation?

[tqualey]

Hi, Moondweller,

Another - Interesting non-resonse disguised as a response… Has this now become your style: one-liners that claim to say something but are not only hollow but miss the point as well?

It’s called context, Tom.

Maybe, I was just less then clear in my previous response, so, I will try again.

The convoluted bending of scripture to fit this man-made Faith Alone concept is totally un-Biblical. Efforts to find a verse here and there so as to add “alone” are an abomination before God and a disgrace to anyone who loves the Bible.

The challenge - which you chose to simply ignore - is to try and reconcile the entire Bible to this different gospel of Faith Alone. You will find that the CC has reconciled the entire Bible to being saved by God’s Grace as we cooperate through WORKS enlivening FAITH.

Simply stated: you can’t do it because God’s inspired word as handed down through His Church - the Catholic Church - is based on more then Faith. Efforts to remove it - mean entire sections of scripture must be contorted from thier obvious meaning to a debasement.

So, as was previously stated to you: context that…

God bless

 

[paul_c]

In Reformed Theology, it seems that the refusal of the Christian to maintain a state of grace means that they were never in a state of grace to begin with. It also seems to mean to them that God is weak, or that He went back on His gift, or promise. To them, “to grieve the HS of God” does not mean a mortal wound, as it does to us.

yes, when confronted with a believer who kills someone or some other grievous sin, the once saved, only saved person has two choices: believe that the sinner was never a believer or come over to the Catholic position where sinners are held responsible for their sins. Most Reformers will chose the first, since it doesn’t conflict with their view of dogma. And I agree with you that they perceive a God that can’t save everyone is week. My counterpoint is that God judges rightly and wants everyone to come to him of their own free will.

I don’t think so. I think that the gift is forever. However, people cna step out of the gift. If one repents, and returns to the state of grace, one can finish the race and win the prize. Stepping out of the grace, though, does not nullify it’s eternal quality. Just our ability to benefit from it. That would be having one’s name blotted out of the book of life. The book of life remains (sanctifying grace forever), it just no longer has our name it it.

This is kind of verbal nitpicking. Is it the same grace reclaimed or new grace when you fall and repent? How can you know and why does it matter. The simple fact is that you can lose grace through sin and we both agree with that.

No. Adam and Eve did not need grace, because they were not created in sin. They were created in a right relationship with God. Grace is what restores the fallen to right relationship. You are right, however, being in right relationship with God they did choose to sin, and lost that relationship, with eternal consequences. The nature of sin has not changed. It separated us from God then, and it still does now.

Mary was born without sin and she is Full of GRACE… Why do you say Adam and even weren’t full of grace too. It’s defined as the gift of God’s life within us. Adam and Eve certainly had that before the fall.

I would say this is generally true, however, good works are not “required” for salvation. For example, anyone who receives baptism, if they die without committing mortal sin, would be fit for heaven. In like manner, some persons are not capable of doing good works, such as disabled persons, but will enter heaven because they are baptized. There are other reasons a person might not be able to do good works, for example, if one is a thief and is nailed to a cross, one might have trouble doing good works.

You are right, there are exceptions but works are clearly sanctifying and there are sins of omission as well, so you can’t always make it to heaven by simply being baptized and doing nothing.

Sounds like you are making a great bible study!

Yes, I find I am learning a lot about the bible through CAF…

 

[SHW]

Great post.

Thank you. We are here to learn from each other.

SHW

 

[guanophore]

come over to the Catholic position where sinners are held responsible for their sins.

I would say that the ‘saints’ (those called to be holy) are also held responsible for their sins.

 The simple fact is that you can lose grace through sin and we both agree with that.

No, I dont’ think that Calvanists agree with this.

Mary was born without sin and she is Full of GRACE… Why do you say Adam and even weren’t full of grace too.

Grace became necessary because of sin, and Adam and Eve were created without sin.

It’s defined as the gift of God’s life within us. Adam and Eve certainly had that before the fall.

No, God’s image and likeness within us is how He created Adam and Eve. They were created to have fellowship with Him. They did not need grace (God’s unmerited favor that covers sin) because they were not in sin. 'They needed grace AFTER then fell into sin, just as we do.

You are right, there are exceptions but works are clearly sanctifying and there are sins of omission as well, so you can’t always make it to heaven by simply being baptized and doing nothing.

In fact, I would say most likely not.

 

[ncgolf]

In Reformed or Calvinistic theology when does this infusion of saving grace occur?

Is this infusion recognizable by the person receiving it and if so how is it recognized?

How does one recognize this grace as the saving grace as opposed to ordinary grace?

 

[moondweller]

In Reformed or Calvinistic theology when does this infusion of saving grace occur?

Is this infusion recognizable by the person receiving it and if so how is it recognized?

How does one recognize this grace as the saving grace as opposed to ordinary grace?

“Infused grace” is uniquely Catholic (it’s not even Biblical). So YOU should know the answers to ALL these questions. I myself would like to know the answers to the second and third. We already know Catholics believe the “infusion” supposedly takes place at baptism.

Also, does a Catholic “feel” this “infused grace” leave the soul when he/she sins? None of this is Biblical (based on divine Revelation), so it must be experiential. What does it feel like for the “infusion” to leave the soul and return again after the sacrament of reconciliation?

 

[sodak]

The Bible never contradicts itself. You must always interpret Scripture in context. James two also has a context:James 2:14 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

James 2:18 "But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."Like Abraham and Rahab, faith is demonstrated by works, but it’s the faith through which God justifies (Gen. 15:6), not the demonstration of it. Like Paul, James can only cite Gen. 15:6, the ONLY time God justified Abraham and that through his faith alone.Gen 15:6 "Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it (his faith/belief in Him) to him as righteousness."Compare this to:Rom 4:3-5 "For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."Notice the tiny word “it.” And IT was credited to him as righteousness (justification). Not Abraham’s demonstration of his faith which grew over the years as he exercised his faith in the Lord, but “it,” meaning his faith/belief in the Lord, i.e., what He said, His WORD. Therefore Paul goes on with:Rom 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Now the context and meaning of Gen. 15:6 and Rom. 4:3-5 is EXTREMELY clear. The only way you can avoid it is categorically disbelieve it.

I somehow missed this response.

No, I can avoid it by disagreeing with your interpretation of Scripture. James is quite clear. This discussion reminds me of the time that Pres. Lincoln stated the the Union must be preserved. Then all the politicians came up with wordy statements to explain that he meant the opposite…

I continue to get the impression that you’ve built your theology on certain key verses from Paul, taken out of context, then, when confronted with other verses, elaborate explanations have to be undertaken to put the round peg into the square hole. Perhaps it would be better to take another look at the Bible as a whole, interpreted in context (by the Church), and examine your belief system in that light. I realize that is a difficult thing to do, but it is truly necessary in our walk with Christ.

Go back and read my posts. I posted a list of passages that stated faith alone for salvation. And that was just a sample of them. Just as there are MANY stating the the word “believe” alone.But in context.Or interpreting Scripture based on said “Sacred Tradition” produces all sorts of inconsistencies and contradictions.It was taking it out of context that produced the error. Taking Scripture out of context can produce a false “sacred tradition” as well.

The Sacred Tradition, as part of the deposit of Faith in the Church, was what produced the Bible, under the influence of the Holy Spirit. To disregard that is to ignore the spirit of the Bible while reading the letter of the Bible. But I do agree, taking the Bible out of context does indeed produce many false traditions, as has been evidenced in the last 400 years by the reformation. The many, many schisms of Christian churches is a very plain testament to this fact. They all need to return to the Church!

 

[ncgolf]

“Infused grace” is uniquely Catholic (it’s not even Biblical). So YOU should know the answers to ALL these questions. I myself would like to know the answers to the second and third. We already know Catholics believe the “infusion” supposedly takes place at baptism.

Also, does a Catholic “feel” this “infused grace” leave the soul when he/she sins? None of this is Biblical (based on divine Revelation), so it must be experiential. What does it feel like for the “infusion” to leave the soul and return again after the sacrament of reconciliation?

OK … let’s try this again …

Saving grace … when does one have, get, receive this gift … you name the term … there must be a time when the intellect recognizes this fact … what is it.

If you want answers to a particular Catholic belief … ask then … I don’t think you will lack in answers.

 

[moondweller]

I agree. No one can keep the law and the commandments without faith. However, with grace, through faith, this is possible. And it is the doers of the Law who will be justified.

No Jew, who was under the Law, could keep the Law, period. Even the Decalogue is called a ministry of condemnation of and death (2 Cor. 3:6-9). All the Law could do is expose and remind the one under that covenant of sins years after year after year. The Decalogue exposed sins, the sacrifices reminded the sinner of them (Heb. 10:1-4).Rom 3:19-24 "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through law {comes} the knowledge of sin. But now apart from law {the} ***righteousness of God ***has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"You Catholics are stuck in the wrong (even obsolete) covenant. That’s why you put your hope and faith in works, rather than the work that was accomplished for you, once for all. But those works can never save you, in the end they’ll condemn you.

 

[moondweller]

OK … let’s try this again …

Saving grace … when does one have, get, receive this gift … you name the term … there must be a time when the intellect recognizes this fact … what is it.

If you want answers to a particular Catholic belief … ask then … I don’t think you will lack in answers.

Let’s stick with “infused grace” for a while. Please give me your answers to your second and third question based on your experience as a Catholic.

 

[ncgolf]

Let’s stick with “infused grace” for a while. Please give me your answers to your second and third question based on your experience as a Catholic.

Is this infusion recognizable by the person receiving it and if so how is it recognized?

Here is the Catechism teachings on grace which is the premise as Catholics we begin.

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

continued …

 

[ncgolf]

Let’s stick with “infused grace” for a while. Please give me your answers to your second and third question based on your experience as a Catholic.

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God’s grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.’"58

On a personal note … I have experienced these things … in times I have recognized or understood things in a light I never understood before and have had the grace to recognize the fact of where this knowledge came from.

I like how Theresa of Calcutta puts it … “All is grace”.

How does one recognize this grace as the saving grace as opposed to ordinary grace?

In the Cathechism there does seem to be types of grace … but in a practical manner in my life … I sense no real distinctions. I recognize these things as just grace, not particularlly as ordinary or sanctifying … now others may “feel” differently than I but I am only addressing what I sense.

I have sensed when grace has been present in my life and when I do I can recognize even more times these things have occurred. It is humbling when one truly recognizes how little one has done and how much of what we do is out of God’s favor.

 

[moondweller]

I like how Theresa of Calcutta puts it … “All is grace”. In the Cathechism there does seem to be types of grace … but in a practical manner in my life … I sense no real distinctions. I recognize these things as just grace, not particularlly as ordinary or sanctifying … now others may “feel” differently than I but I am only addressing what I sense.

I have sensed when grace has been present in my life and when I do I can recognize even more times these things have occurred. It is humbling when one truly recognizes how little one has done and how much of what we do is out of God’s favor.

Thanks for the effort, but you still haven’t answered questions two and three relating to your “infused grace,” or my questions:“Infused grace” is uniquely Catholic (it’s not even Biblical). So YOU should know the answers to ALL these questions. I myself would like to know the answers to the second and third. We already know Catholics believe the “infusion” supposedly takes place at baptism.

Also, does a Catholic “feel” this “infused grace” leave the soul when he/she sins? None of this is Biblical (based on divine Revelation), so it must be experiential. What does it feel like for the “infusion” to leave the soul and return again after the sacrament of reconciliation?.

 

[ncgolf]

Thanks for the effort, but you still haven’t answered questions two and three relating to your “infused grace,” or my questions:“Infused grace” is uniquely Catholic (it’s not even Biblical).

Well that is why this topic exists … right … tell me something I don’t know already and we can move forward.

is uniquely Catholic (it’s not even Biblical)

You know … everyone here knows your position … so if you want to ask … then ask a question … if you want to editoralize … then do that seperately. No one reading this is going to confuse you with a Catholic.

So YOU should know the answers to ALL these questions. I myself would like to know the answers to the second and third. We already know Catholics believe the “infusion” supposedly takes place at baptism.

Yes … this is documented in the Cathechism and told to you many times in this … and probably other threads as well.

None of this is Biblical (based on divine Revelation), so it must be experiential.

Again why ask the question when you already have given your answer … I notice many things in the way you think is either/or. You have left out the possibility of it being revealed that way in Scripture and can be felt in life. I do not take your statement as the agreed upon starting point but as well worn opinion but mainly because it is false and the abject truth to which you write is doubtful.

Also, does a Catholic “feel” this “infused grace” leave the soul when he/she sins?

Remember what Baptism does … if by infusion you mean Baptism then . … I will repeat the effects of Baptism from the Catechism … but if you understood what Catholics meant about Baptism and infusion you would not have asked. The CCC offers much more on this but this addresses the leaving part of your question.
1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God—the consummation of faith—and in the hope of resurrection.

None of this is Biblical (based on divine Revelation), so it must be experiential.

No it is biblical and real. Thus it can be gleamed from Scripture and applied to real life. Again why ask a question and answer it before awaiting a response.

What does it feel like for the “infusion” to leave the soul and return again after the sacrament of reconciliation?

The effect of Baptism remains (see above)… but sin does have it’s effect … from the Cathechism " No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation".

If I was to categorize it … it would be like a having a cancer … and not knowing it yet. One rots from the inside out … someone is spiritually dying but is unaware. I think Paul was in that mode.

From a physcial standpoint … nothing changes in the body from reconciliation but we are really are an embodied soul … so the changes are in the soul … so the normal sensory abilities we have are of no use. It is by faith we believe our sins are remitted so if any “feeling” is felt it is by grace only but a lack of feeling does not diminish the effects.

Tell me … what would you feel if you were made right with God? If you can answer that then why would a Catholic feel any different.

 

[moondweller]

No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation".

If sin can’t “erase” this “mark” of divine righteousness on the soul, then you cannot lose it (and salvation) by committing a mortal sin. If, according to Catholicism, one is saved/justified at the moment of ritual baptism, and by the act of baptism the “mark” of righteousness is miraculously infused onto the soul, and this “mark” of divine righteousness can’t be “erased” by sin, then one must conclude, contrary to other Catholic doctrines, that Catholics cannot lose salvation. If that mark is a sign of salvation. Otherwise you’re contradicting what you state about not erasing the “mark.”

If I was to categorize it … it would be like a having a cancer … and not knowing it yet. One rots from the inside out … someone is spiritually dying but is unaware.

That sounds like a process. But if a Catholic can actually lose the “state of grace” he received upon ritual baptism, and that by sin, then it’s immediate, not gradual. I would think I would hear Catholics screaming out in agony somewhere, everyday, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.”

Tell me … what would you feel if you were made right with God?

Peace with God. I felt this the moment I believed and do to this very moment. I fully relate, experientially, to Paul’s words:Rom 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."And I’ve sinned many times since I believed.

I think Paul was in that mode.

No. As you can read by the above quote, Paul, after faith in Christ never was in a spiritually rotting mode. His struggled with sin and the Law, as recorded in Romans seven, ended when he turned, by faith, to Christ:Rom 7:24-25 "Wretched man that I am! Who (not “what”) will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!Why? Because Paul teaches:Rom 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

 

[SHW]

“Infused grace” is uniquely Catholic (it’s not even Biblical). So YOU should know the answers to ALL these questions. I myself would like to know the answers to the second and third. We already know Catholics believe the “infusion” supposedly takes place at baptism.

Also, does a Catholic “feel” this “infused grace” leave the soul when he/she sins? None of this is Biblical (based on divine Revelation), so it must be experiential. What does it feel like for the “infusion” to leave the soul and return again after the sacrament of reconciliation?

Infused grace means the graces from God that are given to a person when baptism sanctifies his soul. This sanctifying grace given through baptism literally marks the soul with a special mark (character) because it is Supernatural power which sanctifies us. Baptism washes away Original Sin (and personal sins if there are any on our souls at the time of baptism) and we are therefore justified (reconciled with God) and made holy (sanctified).

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

God moves into our souls which become His temples after we become justified by baptism.

1 Corinthians 3:16 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

He abides with us in our temples (souls).

1 John 3:24"Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

Graces are poured (infused) into the soul at baptism. Faith, hope, and charity are examples of “infused” graces.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 “For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

I don’t remember “feeling” anything at my baptism because I was an infant. Feelings and emotions are not important. Obedience to God’s commandments is what is important.

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

When a person sins a mortal sin, sanctifying graces are no longer present in the soul because the person cuts himself off from God’s fellowship. Christ’s sacrifice no longer saves him.

Hebrews 10:26-31 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

We must remain reconciled with God and die with sanctifying grace in our souls in order to inherit eternal life.

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.”

We are cut off the Vine (Christ) if we sin mortal sins.

1 Corinthians 3:17 “If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

We are cut off the Vine, Jesus, by mortal sins because God cannot live in defiled temples. When God leaves our souls when we sin mortal sins, then we are no longer justified. We are no longer saved and we will not inherit eternal life. So, if we sin the mortal sins that cause the death of the soul, then we no longer abide in God. He no longer abides in us. Our own free will actions separate us from God.

James 5:20 “let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

James is speaking of mortal sins which cause the death (damnation) of the soul.

1 John 5:17 “All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.”

John is speaking of venial sins. They do not cause the death of the soul.

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

However, if he repents, confesses, etc., then he will again be grafted back onto the Vine, Jesus.

Romans 11:23 “And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

Ezekiel 33:12-20 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

Examples of Mortal Sins:

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

SHW

 

[SHW]

The character or mark given at baptism cannot be removed by sin. The mark does not save you. We are marked as disciples of Christ. Sanctifying grace saves you.

If you defile your temple, then you are no longer saved, but the mark remains. The mark shows that you were redeemed. Hopefully you will remain redeemed and die redeemed. Your own free will choices determine if you die “in Christ” which means dying with sanctifying grace on/in your soul.

SHW

 

[paul_c]

When a person sins a mortal sin, sanctifying graces are no longer present in the soul because the person cuts himself off from God’s fellowship. Christ’s sacrifice no longer saves him.

Hebrews 10:26-31 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

We must remain reconciled with God and die with sanctifying grace in our souls in order to inherit eternal life.

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.”

We are cut off the Vine (Christ) if we sin mortal sins.

1 Corinthians 3:17 “If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

We are cut off the Vine, Jesus, by mortal sins because God cannot live in defiled temples. When God leaves our souls when we sin mortal sins, then we are no longer justified. We are no longer saved and we will not inherit eternal life. So, if we sin the mortal sins that cause the death of the soul, then we no longer abide in God. He no longer abides in us. Our own free will actions separate us from God.

James 5:20 “let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

James is speaking of mortal sins which cause the death (damnation) of the soul.

1 John 5:17 “All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.”

John is speaking of venial sins. They do not cause the death of the soul.

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

However, if he repents, confesses, etc., then he will again be grafted back onto the Vine, Jesus.

Romans 11:23 “And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

Ezekiel 33:12-20 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

Examples of Mortal Sins:

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

SHW

very impressive post.

 

[ncgolf]

If sin can’t “erase” this “mark” of divine righteousness on the soul, then you cannot lose it (and salvation) by committing a mortal sin.

To fully understand the Catholic position on Baptism and it’s effect you must read the Catechism, 1213 thru 1284. There is too much on the subject for me to cover here. You tie that mark with the ultimate end (salvation) and this is the theology of the Reformers. If we believed as you there would be no need for the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

That is not what the Church teaches, mort If, according to Catholicism, one is saved/justified at the moment of ritual baptism, and by the act of baptism the “mark” of righteousness is miraculously infused onto the soul, and this “mark” of divine righteousness can’t be “erased” by sin, then one must conclude, contrary to other Catholic doctrines, that Catholics cannot lose salvation.

Again if we concluded as you this discussion would not be happening. If I agreed with you I would be a reformer not a Catholic. What remains after baptism is “concupiscence” … our worldly desires remain but “it cannot harm those who do not consent but manufully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Catechism 1264. This is Paul’s working out our faith in fear and trembling. The only thing that saves us Catholics is grace(and most likely a lot of it) … there is no other means to salvation. Sin is the difference between what you and I believe. Sin has no effect if a) I do not commit it or b) commit sin but reconcile myself with God’s grace via Reconciliation.

A If that mark is a sign of salvation.

That mark grafts us unto Christ … makes us “in Christ” … sin seperates us from Christ and if one dies in that seperation … one is seperated eternally by finally being “cut off”. The grafted vine remains grafted until such a time when it must be “cut off” … for us that time is death.

Otherwise you’re contradicting what you state about not erasing the "mark."That sounds like a process. But if a Catholic can actually lose the “state of grace” he received upon ritual baptism, and that by sin, then it’s immediate, not gradual.

The details of how santification and salvation in the manner you speak has been talked about in this thread in earlier posts. Mortal sin is an immediate break but when I spoke of gradual … it is a gradual turning away … little sins eventually turn into bigger ones, ask most Catholics and I think you find this to be true. Sin is serious business for Catholics … and should be for all Christians … look at what sin does to the world … and we as people of faith do those things that the unfaithed do … sometimes it is shameful. I use the Jesus prayer a lot … “Lord Jesus Christ, son of the Living God, have mercy on me a sinner.”

I would think I would hear Catholics screaming out in agony somewhere, everyday, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me

I am sure we all have … this is not a doubt on God’s goodness … Christ himself spoke it while in agony … if the humanity of Christ can feel this privation … why not us.

"Peace with God.

This is one thing not felt when one is in sin … I am surprised when one still feels peace when sinning … especially if one has received the ultimate gift.

Galations 5:1-6 The Importance of Faith
1 2 For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.
2 It is I, Paul, who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. 3
4 You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

Why do we not “have” righteousness or why does not Paul use “faith alone” … we have “hope” which here is better translated as “expectation” and faith “working” in love is true faith for as Paul puts it faith without love is nothing. I didn’t say it Paul did.